Log Horizon S2 - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Gundamx]

playing warcraft > Boss die become 2 > 2 become 4(=8) .....
(smaller version have all skills of original boss)

trying it with pug raid was nightmare
(finally killed it after 2 days of wipes)

but unlike log horizon it was made this way = so we have easier time

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

This episode.... if you're a gamer, this episode will hit right in the feels. ;-;

I used to play lots of mmos and the speech did nothing for me. A lot of people play games these days, it isn't stigmatized anymore. Of course if you were some sort of hikikomori with no social life that's another matter, most gamers don't feel the need to go to that extreme.

[Marcus H.]

Take note that those to make fun of MMO players in the episode are also "gamers" in the sense of "players playing games". However, the only thing these people play are social games.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Jagger

I used to play lots of mmos and the speech did nothing for me. A lot of people play games these days, it isn't stigmatized anymore. Of course if you were some sort of hikikomori with no social life that's another matter, most gamers don't feel the need to go to that extreme.

most gamers aren't also in the top ranks or those the spend days grinding or raiding. Those that literally stocks in front of their monitor trying to finish a game for hours though it depends but you can probably differentiate a hardcore from none hardcore gamer. Even in their mannerism and such.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Jagger

I used to play lots of mmos and the speech did nothing for me. A lot of people play games these days, it isn't stigmatized anymore. Of course if you were some sort of hikikomori with no social life that's another matter, most gamers don't feel the need to go to that extreme.

Erm, yeah it still is.

Violent games are still being blamed for violent behavior, people still think all WoW players have no life, and governments tried to tax them. And that's just the common ones, wait till you hear the exotic stories.

[tsunade666]

I also laughed in one of the song in youtube "Dota o Ako" and I'm a filipino and I spend my highschool life in playing dota and I'll tell you I played the game for hours till no end.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/es5HlkvPuaU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[FRS]

William speech worked for me, as a gamer i didnt face the same conditions as him, but i did meet my share of peoples not understanding or dismissing my hobby of playing video games.

[Ickarium]

Personally, I thought the speech itself was fine, but it lasted a bit long. In the light novel, exposition is fine as you read past it pretty quickly but especially with the scenes to illustrate what he's saying, it lasted too long. As a storytelling device, it's an episode-long exposition. One time when accurately porting from the novel might have needed tweaks.

The speech itself is understandable. While I don't think focusing on a game to that extent is a good thing per se, there are a -lot- of people who look down on various hobbies. MMOs have been going mainstream for a while, but I still see people saying silly things like 'Go out and play football' or such. And while American television is very conservative medium about social trends so take it with a grain of salt, a lot of 'geeky' hobbies still have a tendency to be painted as odd or wrong.

[Sheba]

Touno being a player from the Everquest era, I CAN see how William's speech could draw from the social stigma associated with MMORPG players back then. Remember, that was before WoW, before celebrities such as Mr T advertised for WoW, and way before the "casualization" of the genre, where there are now quests that help you level faster.

EDIT: And when I mean social stigma, it became a topic in France in the early 2000s, something about cyber-addiction. To the point that there were a documentary about MMORPG players that stigmatized them in the same way they did it with tabletop pen & paper rpg players, sans the satanism. At one point, they showed one of the interviewed players walking home, with the image of his Everquest walking avatar laid over him.

[Raviel]

I don't really consider myself either casual or hardcore as a gamer so William's speech didn't really resonate with me that much.

Especially the bit about online interactions, though that probably has more to do with the fact that the last time I felt anything close to how William felt was when I was playing RF online when I was...........9 or 10 years old and barely had an idea of wtf was doing till I got randomly invited to a very nice guild

Growing up has since made me prioritize more practical decisions when playing online (then again now I rarely bother with community functions unless I need to buy/sell, look for a random party, or make terrible puns on area wide chat)

[Juke16]

That speech worked for me, I think that a lot of people THINK they're gamers but they're really not. In my opinion, there is a great difference between simply playing a game for entertainment and playing a game as a hobby. While most people who play for the entertainment factor only skim the surface of the game, those who play as a hobby and want to meet other like minded people generally engage in the community aspect as well. It is to those REALLY played a game that this speech will resonate with the most, not the casuals who dilute most MMOs.

For me, I was and still kind of am into Universal Century Gundam Online and most people who just game for entertainment will probably never feel the true pleasure of chasing the spacenoids off of Earth in a raid :P

[Netto Azure]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

I also laughed in one of the song in youtube "Dota o Ako" and I'm a filipino and I spend my highschool life in playing dota and I'll tell you I played the game for hours till no end.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/es5HlkvPuaU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I've been out of the Philippines for almost a decade now. But I still remember when those kinds of videos were made promoting or parodying Ragnarok Online players LOL.

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

I've been out of the Philippines for almost a decade now. But I still remember when those kinds of videos were made promoting or parodying Ragnarok Online players LOL.

lol, I remember having wedding in MMO. its party people! there are also music/dance video. I like the video made by rose players.

[Sinestra]

I felt like i was watching the state of the union that was the longest speech ever

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Juke16

That speech worked for me, I think that a lot of people THINK they're gamers but they're really not. In my opinion, there is a great difference between simply playing a game for entertainment and playing a game as a hobby. While most people who play for the entertainment factor only skim the surface of the game, those who play as a hobby and want to meet other like minded people generally engage in the community aspect as well. It is to those REALLY played a game that this speech will resonate with the most, not the casuals who dilute most MMOs.

For me, I was and still kind of am into Universal Century Gundam Online and most people who just game for entertainment will probably never feel the true pleasure of chasing the spacenoids off of Earth in a raid :P

That's absurd. A gamer who escapes reality by spending all his time playing video game isn't any smarter than a gamer who plays less. In fact you'll find most no-lifers don't understand the meta of the game and just brute-force (eg. spend more time online than everyone else) their way into success.

At the end of the day William, who had issues and thus engrossed himself into video games to escape, is never going to be as gifted a gamer as eg. Shiroe, who was an university student and had a life, no matter how many hours he pours into it.

[DQueenie13]

Pretty sure the anime cut this out, but Shiroe admits that William was the same as he was when he was William's age, so it's not like they're much different. In fact, Shiroe said in the last episode that he didn't have much of a social life either since he always secluded himself from others.

[Estavali]

From NHK's LogHora tweets:

https://twitter.com/nhk_loghorizon/s...62668745170944

本日も「ログ・ホライズン」をご覧いただき、ありがとうございました！中村悠一さんの迫真のお芝居に、胸を 打たれた方も多かったのではないでしょうか。ままれ先生や監督ともよく話すのですが、「オンラインゲーム万 歳」とか「ゲーマー最高！」というシーンにとどまらない語りでした。（続く）

Thanks for watching today's Log Horizon! Mr Nakamura Yuuichi's convincing performance must have touched the hearts of many people. Mamare-sensei and the director would probably go "All Hail MMO" or "Praise the Gamers!" and the sort.

https://twitter.com/nhk_loghorizon/s...62669537906688

ままれ先生は、このシーンで「デキる奴も壁にぶつかる」というテーマを持っていたそうです。（ちなみに、第 １期では「初心者が壁にあたる」という話がありました。）たしかに、自信や経験があるだけに、「デキる奴」 ほど、自分の弱さを認めたり、初心に戻るのに、苦労するのかもしれません。（続く）

According to Mamare-sensei, the theme of this scene is that "Even capable people will have their bottlenecks" (BTW, the main theme for S1 is along the lines of "Newbies confronting their first obstacles"). Indeed, due to their confidence and experience, for the "Winners" to admit their weakness and to return to the starting line would take quite the effort.

https://twitter.com/nhk_loghorizon/s...62670359998465

でもきっと、そこで「今まで続けてきた道だから」と、もうひとふんばりできれば、光が差したり、仲間があら われたりする、と。たとえば、「不可能といわれた青色ＬＥＤの開発」とか「まさかの５０歳で現役プロ野球選 手」なんていうのは、そういった歩みの結果なのではないでしょうか。（続く）

But if we can "keep on walking down the road that we have took so far", surely we will see the light at the end of the tunnel, and find like-minded companions. For example, for things like "inventing the blue LED which was deemed impossible" or "to think that there's a pro baseball player that still active at the age of 50", surely these would be the results of persisting on.

https://twitter.com/nhk_loghorizon/s...62671182053376

別にノーベル賞の世界じゃなくても（笑）、「県大会に行ったら歯が立たなかった」とか「高校に行ったら自分 より頭のいい子がいた」とか、「デキるがゆえの悩み」というのは珍しくはない気がします。今回の第１０話が 、ちょっとだけ、そんなみなさんへのエールになればいいな、と思います。（了）

It doesn't really need to be about the Nobel Prize (lol), "Is the prefecture meet too difficult for me?", "What if there's someone brighter than me in high school?" or "Am I succeeding in life?" As humans, it's common for us to have such worries. Hopefully, even just slightly, Episode 10 could give some encouragement to everyone caught in a slump.


English translation based on this post in Bahamut forums with some changes based on personal discretion. Folks who know Nihongo, please help check for errors

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Possible translation errors aside, I think the real gist of this episode is not so much a tribute to MMO gaming as it is to pushing on for what you hold dear, as shown from the tweets. In a sense giving up can often mean losing that something that makes us, us.

Take the Silver Swords for example. They pride themselves as people who take the front of every encounter, people who relish a good challenge no matter the odds. It is this pride that make them disdain the safe and sure ways of D.D.D, a quality that sets them aside from everyone else.

What would happen if they had chose to give up on raiding and resign themselves to being a nice guild that keeps the peace in the North? It would be imho akin to selling their souls in exchange for security. They will, over time, lose sight of who they are, what they can do and eventually, everything that brings light into their lives.

I feel that William's speech is written in the same spirit as Big Sis Maid's "I am Human" speech. Boil it all down and the common message imho would be "Be proud and don't lose sight of ourselves."

[Ickarium]

Originally Posted by Jagger

That's absurd. A gamer who escapes reality by spending all his time playing video game isn't any smarter than a gamer who plays less.

I, too, find this logic rather suspect. Sadly, it's the sort of logic you see a lot in certain types of gamers who want so much to think of themselves as different from the masses. People want to feel special.

Frankly, there's a lot more evidence that those who play a great deal -ruin- the community. You will see far more 'veteran' players who totally destroy newbies asking questions, and not simply the sort you can easily find answers elsewhere, but any questions. Those who, if you don't have what they deem to be the minimum DPS - which is often a highly inflated number - catcall or outright insult newbies. There have been actual movements within some MMO to try to let the game 'die' a little to get rid of the 'damn newbies and casuals'. There's a reason that as games age, you will find fewer and fewer people willing to speak to those not in their guild or kinship or whatever.

Well, of course you think the only people truly part of the community are those who you deem are 'good enough'. But that slippery slope trick leads to an _actual_ bad community.

This isn't to say all veteran players are like that. But the numbers are high enough that it's a fairly common stereotype on humor sites _BY GAMERS WHO PLAY REGULARLY_, rather than by those outside the genre.

Originally Posted by Jagger

At the end of the day William, who had issues and thus engrossed himself into video games to escape, is never going to be as gifted a gamer as eg. Shiroe, who was an university student and had a life, no matter how many hours he pours into it.

This is, however, not something I agree with. While I certainly agree that focusing on a game as much as William did isn't exactly the healthiest of things, there are many gamers who are 'pro gamers' who focus pretty much like he did, and they're top of the top. It's an E-Sport at times, these gamers are pretty well known. Shiroe is an outlier 'cause he's a badass protagonist, not because he had a life.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Jagger

I used to play lots of mmos and the speech did nothing for me. A lot of people play games these days, it isn't stigmatized anymore. Of course if you were some sort of hikikomori with no social life that's another matter, most gamers don't feel the need to go to that extreme.

Originally Posted by Jagger

That's absurd. A gamer who escapes reality by spending all his time playing video game isn't any smarter than a gamer who plays less. In fact you'll find most no-lifers don't understand the meta of the game and just brute-force (eg. spend more time online than everyone else) their way into success.

At the end of the day William, who had issues and thus engrossed himself into video games to escape, is never going to be as gifted a gamer as eg. Shiroe, who was an university student and had a life, no matter how many hours he pours into it.

1. It's not about smart or stupid. It's about pouring time and effort to something that society deem worthless. This usually involve sacrifice social life and not doing other useless stuffs that society deem more "worthy".

2. William's speech was special for some of us because it's not only about how he was alienate from real world society, but also what he faced in online society. We can related to all that. If you never faced what William faced you either living in Utopia where every gamers are perfect or you haven't been playing mmo long/serious enough.

3. There is nothing wrong with that. It's fine that you can't related to William speech. It's fine if you don't feel the need to go that extreme. It's fine that you are casual gamer. It doesn't make one better or smarter than another. William didn't say those people were wrong. He said he doesn't care.

4. William seem to be High schooler and it seem he still attend class as he should. So it's not like he's Hikikomori or anything. It's just that his social life is kept to minimal. Yes, he may still qualifies as no-life. So does all hardcore gamers.

5. Shiroe is also social awkward. He don't seem to have any friend in real life and he barely have any in Elder Tale. He spent 8 years in Elder Tale mostly solo. Now, he's struggling with his 8 man guild. William, on the other hand, spent 2 years to become a leader of hundreds man "raiding" guild. If you have done enough raid, you'll know how hard it is to kept people together in raiding group as oppose to casual group. Social-wise, William is way better than Shiroe.

6. Not all no-lifer may understand meta game. But I dare say that all meta are invented and discovered by so called no-lifer. I'm not saying that there is no good player among casual player, however by the time they reach end game content, those contents would be already examined inside out.

Originally Posted by Ickarium

I, too, find this logic rather suspect. Sadly, it's the sort of logic you see a lot in certain types of gamers who want so much to think of themselves as different from the masses. People want to feel special.

I can feel you. Unfortunately, In the end of the day, human is human. There are as many people who ridicule gamer in real life as elitist gamers who ridicule newbie and casual in gaming community. Human love discrimination like that

[Nvis]

(More)Respect for William.