Log Horizon S2 - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Elestia]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

She's trying to observe someone using the higher level of skills: the things that are being translated as "teachings" in the official subtitles, for some reason. She's hoping that seeing someone use it will allow her to learn how to do it without having to directly ask for help. It may have escaped your notice, but Akatsuki isn't exactly a people person. She really doesn't handle groups or social interactions all that well.

She already asked for help before from the Roderic Guild, specifically from Karasu to teach her about fashion. So I don't think she actually has any trouble asking people, especially from someone she knows. I mean in the very beginning she asked Shiroe for help when the Apocalypse occurred, so yeah.

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I believe I mentioned this in a previous episode discussion, but the sword she was looking at was twice Crescent Moon Alliance's total savings back in season 1 when Shiroe was just starting out his plan to improve Akiba. It would bankrupt an entire guild twice over to buy the kind of weapon she wants. Gold doesn't grow on trees in this game, and it doesn't drop on this scale for PUGs (which is what she's been doing in the past). Whether she wants to earn that much money or wants to take a chance on finding gear through drops, her only way to do so is by doing what Shiroe is doing right now: going on a high-level full raid. The gear she wants won't drop anywhere else, and gold doesn't drop in sufficient quantities in any other situation either.

She doesn't need that particular sword to improve. Any equipment of a higher level than what she has is an improvement, no? That's why I suggested PUGing with gatherers/crafters for their services. Unless crafting is completely useless in Elder Tale, even if it wont be the highest level, she should be able to get equipment of a high enough level to be ready for a raid. Even if the materials are expensive, they would be much cheaper than the finished product (which is why exchanging favors with high level crafters is very lucrative). If she can exchange favors with gatherers, that price goes down as well (basically to raid-exclusive materials, and who knows? Large merchant guilds would have them in stock and she could ask if there is any favor she could do for them in exchange for five pieces of unobtainium).

Keep in mind that not only has she shown an earlier propensity of asking for help, but she is trusted with a lot of the goings on of the Round Table. That translates to a certain level of trust with the involved guilds. If she offers to help guard gatherers/newbies from PKers, most of those guilds would trust her not to turn around and stab them in the back. Similarly the People of the Land would know that she is somewhat in the "Inner Circle" and if they decide to do a "guard my transport carriage of goods" quest-like thing, she would have a good chance of being picked above random adventurers for the job.

Basically, she is in a better position to alternatively gear up slowly (no instant gratification, sure, but slowly growing stronger is still stronger) than most other adventurers.

That's not even mentioning that if she becomes closer to other guilds, they might have "old" (as in, lower than their current item level but higher than Akatsuki's) Raid level equipment that they might put up as payment instead (even if it's worth more than they money they would have usually given her, simply because that it's useless to them and they have a favorably disposition towards Akatsuki).

[Esclair]

I didn't really care about this episode that much. Akatsuki sulking and Akibahara SOL really isn't that interesting especially when we have the raid going on in Shiroe's story.

[Benigmatica]

Originally Posted by Elestia

Then we get to enjoy some of DEEN's quality throughout this episode:

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WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU LOG HORIZON!?

Ugh, those designs are a mess! Still, at least DEEN didn't ruin Episode 4 by adding more useless stuff.

[Boukenxha]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

I've always felt that from the character-side of LH's story, Akatsuki has always been the weak link. Her complex about looking young isn't that compelling in the face of the current anime aesthetic (when many characters look much younger than in reality). Her RPing background never comes into play other than being "my lord this, my lord that", never do we see her interject any knowledge of the game's Lore and so contribute to both the story and her friends (imagine if she had studied Lore like a real RPer? She would have known quite a lot about the world when dealing with PoL politics last season).

And then there's this episode. Okay, lets say that she's the type of RPer who doesn't earn money or level (most RPers I know do either one or both to gain access to more RP opportunities). That doesn't mean that she doesn't know how to. If her equipment is low level, it should be common knowledge where to get the next level/how to craft it. She already has alliances with the biggest merchant guilds in the area, so all she has to do is to go out, earn the money, and then commission them. If she doesn't want that, she has alliances with Crescent Moon, BBB and Black Sword Knights. Surely there are a few of similar equipment level as her that wont be out killing goblins? Just make a party and loot a couple of dungeons where those items usually drop.

Or just PUG it. Offer gatherers/crafters your help in leveling their battle classes in exchange for their services/money.

Instead we have her pining for Shiroe, which weakens her already watered down character (I'm sorry, a RPer with so little to say about the Lore feels inauthentic to me).

Well Shiroe gave Akatsuki the job of protecting the princess, she can't just abandon it to pursue her own interest and join another raid group that will take up a long commitment. She is bound in liege to her lord Shiroe for that matter too and that is in fact her way of roleplaying, acting out her part as a japanese ninja serving her master.

I think it's kinda unfair to say she doesn't contribute much in the knowledge of ET. Going back to S1, I recall a few occasions where she was the one with the commentaries. In any case, I'm sure all most players have at least the intermediates down if they are at lvl 90, rather I would say it's not her specialization that she would be asked for her opinion at every opportunity. Technically speaking, guys like Naotsugu and Marielle are not contributing and awful lot in these subjects too, but they have their own expertise and roles that they are good at. As for the lore and game knowledge, that's why we have Shiroe no?

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by Manatsu

Well Shiroe gave Akatsuki the job of protecting the princess, she can't just abandon it to pursue her own interest and join another raid group that will take up a long commitment. She is bound in liege to her lord Shiroe for that matter too and that is in fact her way of roleplaying, acting out her part as a japanese ninja serving her master.

She doesn't have to join a Raid, unless it is impossible to sell/trade/gift the equipment/materials/crafted equipment from Raid materials, she could find alternative ways to get it (I suggested quite a few that doesn't require raiding). And if not, unless only Raid equipment is higher level and crafting is useless for Endgame, she can get other types of equipment.

Originally Posted by Manatsu

As for the lore and game knowledge, that's why we have Shiroe no?

As long as it pertains to game mechanics, sure. But why on earth would Shiroe memorize minor lore that mostly pertains to the game's back-story? He's mostly a strategist of Endgame raiding. It is Hardcore RPers that sit down and track down all the little things that few others would be interested in (how certain landlords got their lands, where does certain things come from? Which NPCs are famous for historical events that are only mentioned in passing? Which NPCs are heroes in one location and the scourge in a rival one? Which territories/village/families dis/like one another? Why? Have a society suddenly been subject to climate change? Plagues? Death by packs of hellhounds?), because the knowledge have little to no impact on Elder Tale as a game, but can do wonders at fleshing out an RP character's past.

All those things could be opportunities to let Akatsuki shine. Heck, maybe it could have given her an alternative way to grow stronger (thus filling out her RPer niche in the Log Horizon rooster). Instead all we see her RPing amount to is to do as Shiroe says and mope.

Naotsugu is an Endgame Tank/Newbie Mentor/Shiroe's Best Friend and fulfills all those roles. Mari is a side-character who is the Newbie Guild Master/Friendly Guild Master/Mood-maker and she performs those roles to their full extent.

Akatsuki is a main character, whose role in the story seems to be DPS/RPer/Shiroe's shadow. She does a little bit of the first from time to time (yet not effectively enough to gain by it, as evidenced by this episode), a little bit of the second (yet not effectively enough to know more Lore than an Endgame strategist who doesn't), and is mostly the last, and I feel it is a disservice to Akatsuki's potential as a character and her ability to contribute to the story.

[Nvis]

Animation was never this show's forte. Not sure why you guys complaining.

Even their best can't even lift a finger compared to other shows.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Nvis

Animation was never this show's forte. Not sure why you guys complaining.

Even their best can't even lift a finger compared to other shows.

...Allow me to paraphrase you. "This artist isn't Rembrandt or Da Vinci or Michelangelo, or any other such person, so I don't know why you're upset that they switched from detailed character-art to stick figures."

Just because it was never the best in the world doesn't mean we have to accept it getting worse; nor should we accept it showing a level of inconsistency that it never had before.

[Kafriel]

Like it or not, Log Horizon has a lot of characters of equal status; all the LV90-ish players. Shiroe's little party of four has turned into a big-ass alliance of guilds, every character needs a bit of screen time and even so, the main focus is cast on a few particular characters while the rest are overshadowed by them. Think about it, S1 was full of Lander interactions and the newbies' party, the rest of the guilds and a lot of Crusty...while in S2 so far, the focus lies on the full-raid expedition and Raynessia/Akatsuki. The rest of the cast barely get a few minutes to comment on something (like the Xmas event plans etc).

As for the animation...it's not the animation that's bad, it's the majorly altered character designs. It feels like (and it is) a cheap move that takes away part of the impact that the series has as a whole.

[Sheba]

Putting her sentiments toward Shiroe on the side, Akatsuki's woes mirror those of many players who are not quite social and mostly specced for non-raid PvM. They don't have the connections to get friends to raid together, they don't even have enough knowledge and social skills to work the in-game market. This is a vicious circle they are stuck in and leave them with little money and sub-par items that... prevent them from earing a slot in raiding and therefore gain connections. One way to get out of this circle is to open up to people and get one of the points of Massive Multiplayer Online Rople Playing Games.

Shiroe didn't have much that kind of problem because he was consulted for his encyclopedic knowledge of Elter Tales and himself being a part of DTP, also the game genre's conventions that made support characters quite necessary. One can play any MMORPG to see that support and tank classes are in high demand much more than DPS (still remember how the queues in FFXIV were loooong for DPS while short for tanks and healers). That goes with Mamare's answer about why he choose Enchanter and Assassin as main PoV characters, he said something like "to show that everyone in MMO need people to do something".

[Kafriel]

MMOs usually have what is also displayed in Elder Tale, a number of guilds that stand out from the rest: they have a solid number of end-game players who know or attempt to analyze the game's mechanics (from smithing/enchanting formulas to item drop rates and monster spawn counters), they raid frequently and support their lower-level players with grinding tips, skill choices and old gear. Their most defining trait, however, would be their capacity. Guild expansions can cost an immense amount of gold, so capping out on people just makes that guild even more active as a whole.

IMO Crescent Moon is not one of those guilds; they lack both money and manpower. I don't know how much gold the sword that Akatsuki wanted actually cost as an NPC item (i.e. the price you'd get for selling it at an in-game store), but the current shop owner is a player, so the pricing of her stock can be arbitrary.

Of course, even if Akatsuki could have switched to that particular sword, it was a 2H weapon...but getting two daggers/short swords of equal attack rating would be better, provided she also had the ability to upgrade both of them to a satisfactory degree. Then there's the matter of armor/gloves/boots/head/waist/ring slots...but that's something that has not been looked into so far...so I'll let it go.

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

She doesn't have to join a Raid, unless it is impossible to sell/trade/gift the equipment/materials/crafted equipment from Raid materials, she could find alternative ways to get it (I suggested quite a few that doesn't require raiding). And if not, unless only Raid equipment is higher level and crafting is useless for Endgame, she can get other types of equipment.


As long as it pertains to game mechanics, sure. But why on earth would Shiroe memorize minor lore that mostly pertains to the game's back-story? He's mostly a strategist of Endgame raiding. It is Hardcore RPers that sit down and track down all the little things that few others would be interested in (how certain landlords got their lands, where does certain things come from? Which NPCs are famous for historical events that are only mentioned in passing? Which NPCs are heroes in one location and the scourge in a rival one? Which territories/village/families dis/like one another? Why? Have a society suddenly been subject to climate change? Plagues? Death by packs of hellhounds?), because the knowledge have little to no impact on Elder Tale as a game, but can do wonders at fleshing out an RP character's past.

All those things could be opportunities to let Akatsuki shine. Heck, maybe it could have given her an alternative way to grow stronger (thus filling out her RPer niche in the Log Horizon rooster). Instead all we see her RPing amount to is to do as Shiroe says and mope.

Naotsugu is an Endgame Tank/Newbie Mentor/Shiroe's Best Friend and fulfills all those roles. Mari is a side-character who is the Newbie Guild Master/Friendly Guild Master/Mood-maker and she performs those roles to their full extent.

Akatsuki is a main character, whose role in the story seems to be DPS/RPer/Shiroe's shadow. She does a little bit of the first from time to time (yet not effectively enough to gain by it, as evidenced by this episode), a little bit of the second (yet not effectively enough to know more Lore than an Endgame strategist who doesn't), and is mostly the last, and I feel it is a disservice to Akatsuki's potential as a character and her ability to contribute to the story.

If Elder Tales is anything like other MMOs, than Raid-level equipment has to be obtained from Raids or Raid Level Quests.

Akatsuki, RPing a lone wolf ninja character, is basically a max level World of Warcraft Rogue wearing nothing but auction house greens and blues.

[Boukenxha]

No matter what, she would need some time commitment in the dungeons in order to get something done, whether it be a phantasmal-class weapon drop or rare crafting materials to create something similar.

As mentioned by others, Akatsuki has never been a people's person. It is one thing getting things done when running business errands for Shiroe, it takes a different kind of courage to be asking for personal favors especially when it doesn't seem like she has the social skills and the relations building groundwork done to make it easier for her. She also had been increasingly harsh and mad on herself too. I think at this point that she is slumping, she probably feels it will be imposing on others and thinks she doesn't deserves to be helped.

If I would make a guess, it is also Mamare's design to write Akatsuki as a roleplaying lone wolf assassin character to "cover up" for her social ineptness. By the end of this arc, she will probably come to opening up herself more after being saved by her friends looking our for her, making it a feel good story.

[Marcus H.]

Actually, I can current relate to Akatsuki. In Dragon Nest, my main focus in gameplay is getting the current level gap's equipment set and upgrading it high enough to avoid item destruction chances. I also belong to a guild that focuses more on its social aspects (just like Crescent Moon) so much that you can't rely on it when you actually want to slay the real big baddies.

There's a reason why I chose this style of gameplay: less stress from a potentially toxic community who kicks players in a party due to the most random of things and less risks to be taken for equipment that would be rendered obsolete when the next level cap comes.

[Myssa Rei]

Lone wolves tend to have a harder time in MMOs, as they're more or less locked out of most endgame material (raids, raid drops) unless they have the right contacts in the right places to vouch for them... But while Akatsuki DOES have Shiroe's reputation vouching for her, her own insecurities are stopping her from asking help anyway.

[Yan3242]

Watching this episode made me awed because akatsuki problem is exactly like mine back when i used to be soloer in mmorpg.

I used to play mmo solo too, rarely do party, never done any raid, once i reach max level i just roam around or make new char, everyday i saw my guild chat so lively everyone talking about stuff while i just read what they said and didnt say anything but take note some info that i find usefull then i do it myself without telling anyone, so when i see akatsuki just stay mostly quiet, stay on the back yet still listening to others really hit me hard. The feeling where you dont want to ask people help because of "reason" BUT at the same time you wish people notice you and guide you.

Personally i think its 1 of the hardship being a pure dps. as dps you only do 1 thing, kill, and to do that you need to be flashy as in you must let everyone know that you are good, because if not you are either become 2nd rate or nobody will even notice you, so if you are the quiet or timid personality type of person, it will clash with what you need to do as dps, being stand out. Look at isaac, krusty or even demikas, they are all dps and they all have 1 common thing, they know how to announce themself as in "look at me" persona.

[Darthtabby]

Someone bought the katana Akatsuki wanted to buy. Now a new villain using a katana has shown up. I doubt that's mere coincidence.

Originally Posted by Episode 4

"Christmas means chicken and cakes, doesn't it?

Some of you may already be aware of this, but KFC chicken is a popular Christmas meal in Japan. Apparently a foreigner ordered chicken at KFC on Christmas and explained he was doing so because he couldn't find turkey. KFC saw a marketing opportunity and began marketing Christmas meals. The campaign (which was apparently initially targeted at foreigners) proved hugely successful, so much so that many Japanese people think that Westerners eat KFC for Christmas dinner. Supposedly KFC restaurants in Japan are so busy on Christmas Eve that they take reservations months in advance and the CEO and board of directors go help out at the stores to provide extra manpower.

[Craxuan]

Oh wow, that's a cool bit of information. Good to know!

[tsunade666]

Originally Posted by Yan3242

Watching this episode made me awed because akatsuki problem is exactly like mine back when i used to be soloer in mmorpg.

and people are awed by how kirito is a SOLO player in a LIFE AND DEATH game -_- yeah right. going solo on high end dungeon that one wrong mistake can kill you

Going solo on MMO is hard. Your character will surely be mediocre at best and being pug won't help much if your a dps and not a tank or healer which is in demand and even if your a tank but your equipment is not end game class. no one will pick you. you will just die again and again

I did raiding before but not not a full blown 24 player raids that was presented here. usually a full party 6-12 party raid with 3-4 raid boss in the dungeon and its hard for me a dps to get a party its easier if you have a guild (but my guild isn't really that much of a raiding guild but more like a chatting guild ) its really hard to play that time.

But I prefer doing damage than support and tanking which make it more hard.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

and people are awed by how kirito is a SOLO player in a LIFE AND DEATH game -_- yeah right. going solo on high end dungeon that one wrong mistake can kill you

To be fair, SAO is based on more old school MMORPG like Ultima online or Ragnarok online where there is no real tank/heal/dps system (yet). Everyone is DPS and mostly solo. Some may be tanky than another. There are bosses and raids but they are more about DPSes gather together to increase firepower.

Elder Tale is based on WoW clone modern day MMORPG like World of warcraft or older one like Everquest. With defined classes role and party based combat, these two kind of MMORPG are different beast altogether.

Originally Posted by Yan3242

Watching this episode made me awed because akatsuki problem is exactly like mine back when i used to be soloer in mmorpg.

Touching story. That is why although I'm not Akatsuki fan and I don't find this whole story entertaining. I do think LH also hit home in another aspect of MMORPG. Every solo DPS woe story lol

Originally Posted by Yan3242

Look at isaac, krusty or even demikas, they are all dps and they all have 1 common thing, they know how to announce themself as in "look at me" persona.

Small nitpicking here. I'm pretty sure all of them are tanks or at least hybrid as they are guardian, guardian and monk respectively.