AnimeSuki Forums

brocko · 2014-10-05, 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shyni

Comparisons of the Archer/Lancer fight I found on /a/

DEEN 2006

Ufotable 2014

The last second of the DEEN one makes me laugh.

Now someone needs to do one for the UBW movie and holy trinity can be complete

Amarantine · 2014-10-05, 19:21

I don't think the movie showed that fight. From what I can remember, they largely skipped the prologue and dived right into the divergence point for UBW in the movie.

But I'm sure comparisons will be made for the second Archer vs Lancer fight, since the movie's rendition of it was particularly embarrassing. That one should only take place in the second cour though, so it's going to be a while still.

brocko · 2014-10-05, 19:30

It's in there. Direct links aren't allowed so you'll have to copy paste and fix the link up yourself. (3m50s if timestamp doesn't work)

Code:

https://www.utube.com/watch?v=7obFlaRzAe8#t=3m50s

Cherry_Lover · 2014-10-06, 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nayrael

He is? In the VN he felt like a guy trolling Lancer, here he was just a guy who barely defended from him.

I think that's a difference in medium rather than in content. In the VN we are told that Archer is leaving exploitable gaps to push Lancer into making attacks he knows he can defend against. If you convert that into a visual mode without the commentry, it's going to come across as "holy shit, he's doing a lot of desperate last-minute blocking".

Quote:

Originally Posted by phishmeister68

The trajectory of Lancer getting blown off doesn't even make sense. The angle doesn't make sense. Physics.

It's just like all these hollywood movies making action scenes realistic. The new James Bond doesn't have as much fancy gadgets as Pierce Brosnan. Daniel Craig got a radio from Q, lol. And the new movie, the Equalizer, that movie was so good. This fight scene looks like Star Wars, all the colours just go flying, pew pew pew. I don't like Star Wars

This is a story in which a later fight involves people running up the side of a building. I don't think physics is their first concern....

Seib9 · 2014-10-06, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amarantine

But I'm sure comparisons will be made for the second Archer vs Lancer fight, since the movie's rendition of it was particularly embarrassing. That one should only take place in the second cour though, so it's going to be a while still.

Best GaeBolg ever. I wonder, Deen's animation was this ridiculed when the anime, and later the movie, come out or it was after everyone saw how good Fate/Zero looks?

phishmeister68 · 2014-10-06, 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

I think that's a difference in medium rather than in content. In the VN we are told that Archer is leaving exploitable gaps to push Lancer into making attacks he knows he can defend against. If you convert that into a visual mode without the commentry, it's going to come across as "holy shit, he's doing a lot of desperate last-minute blocking".

This is a story in which a later fight involves people running up the side of a building. I don't think physics is their first concern....

The thing is, if Saber and Rider runs up the side of a building in the VN, they can animate that. That animated Archer vs Lancer fight is all made up, and 100% different from the VN.

Also, no where in the VN did it state or imply that Archer is leaving gaps. That's 100% not true. Maybe you're interpret it wrongly.

And I'm reading that fight in the VN, and I visualizing it, it's very hard to put the scenes I see in my head into words. It's very hard. I'm trying to do that.

Been thinking about it all day. Very productive day.

Lorhand · 2014-10-06, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by phishmeister68

The thing is, if Saber and Rider runs up the side of a building in the VN, they can animate that. That animated Archer vs Lancer fight is all made up, and 100% different from the VN.

Also, no where in the VN did it state or imply that Archer is leaving gaps. That's 100% not true. Maybe you're interpret it wrongly.

And I'm reading that fight in the VN, and I visualizing it, it's very hard to put the scenes I see in my head into words. It's very hard. I'm trying to do that.

Been thinking about it all day. Very productive day.

Not stated in the Prologue because it's Rin who is narrating.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance of sure hit, shield of no loss

He has been able to block such attacks until now because he had experienced them in a previous battle.
He is doing what he can... using his inferiority as a weapon to block Lancer's furious onslaught.
He is controlling where the attacks come.
The knight in red limits the oncoming attacks by leaving fatal openings.

Of course, he will die if he does not dodge the attacks.
But if he can choose between instant death and getting slowly cut up, he prefers to risk instant death.
Otherwise, it all will have been for nothing.
Fortunately, Lancer is still taking Archer lightly.
Or rather, he is lost in the joy of battle.
If they are to keep on assaulting each other like this, he can think of another thirty ways to "show an opening".

Prediction using the information obtained. Planning using cultivated battle experience.
Those are the nerves of steel, the "mind's eye" that one obtains through training.
This is nothing extraordinary.
This is the only skill he possesses.
It is not innate like Saber's "instinct", but it is a simple weapon that anyone can gain through hard work.

phishmeister68 · 2014-10-06, 11:52

Is that the first fight or the second fight?

Lorhand · 2014-10-06, 11:55

The second. It doesn't matter though whether it's the first or the second, because Archer always makes use of his "Eye of the Mind" skill.

phishmeister68 · 2014-10-06, 12:04

I think first fight makes a difference. You can't approach every new enemy, and leave openings to predict where they'll hit. Like the first line, at least he had experienced them before.

Plus in the first fight, Lancer was attacking, aiming for the head, throat, shoulder, and heart. I don't really care if Archer leave those area open, for sure Lancer just gonna go attack those anyway. A lance will always dictates the fight because of its reach, Archer can only defend the lance. The lance decides how the fight goes.

Maybe for sure, Archer can be like Batman in the second fight, and be a tactical sleuth, if the VN says so.

I think that second fight, only means limiting Lancer's onslaught, instant death or slowly cut up. Because Lancer is on an onslaught, Archer wants to limit Lancer's thrusts, otherwise it'll be too much to deal with, and he'll get cut up.

Yea, for sure it doesn't have the same meaning in the first fight. There's a difference. I know Archer will always have the Eye of the Mind skill, but it's not the same in the first fight. He wasn't dealing with an onslaught in the first fight.

And, yea, what can you get from all these? Lancer was doing the attacking for the majority in the VN. Archer was doing more attacking, making Lancer defend a fair bit in the anime.

Lorhand · 2014-10-06, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by phishmeister68

I think first fight makes a difference. You can't approach every new enemy, and leave openings to predict where they'll hit. Like the first line, at least he had experienced them before.

Yes, from endless other battles he fought for instance, not just the one fight they had before, where Lancer held back.

Quote:

Plus in the first fight, Lancer was attacking, aiming for the head, throat, shoulder, and heart. I don't really care if Archer leave those area open, for sure Lancer just gonna go attack those anyway. A lance will always dictates the fight because of its reach, Archer can only defend the lance. The lance decides how the fight goes.

Maybe for sure, Archer can be like Batman in the second fight, and be a tactical sleuth, if the VN says so.

No, he is always fighting like that. Eye of the Mind is generally described as a skill that will greatly raise your chance for survival and victory. Archer is a tactical genius, which is why he was able to kill Berserker six times before going down.

Quote:

I think that second fight, only means limiting Lancer's onslaught, instant death or slowly cut up. Because Lancer is on an onslaught, Archer wants to limit Lancer's thrusts, otherwise it'll be too much to deal with, and he'll get cut up.

Yea, for sure it doesn't have the same meaning in the first fight. There's a difference. I know Archer will always have the Eye of the Mind skill, but it's not the same in the first fight. He wasn't dealing with an onslaught in the first fight.

And, yea, what can you get from all these? Lancer was doing the attacking for the majority in the VN. Archer was doing more attacking, making Lancer defend a fair bit in the anime.

What I see is that you're assuming a lot and overreacting that they didn't follow the novel to a T. Oh wow, Lancer had to defend for a moment. There's the fact that Lancer disarmed Archer 27 times in that fight, which they have partially shown.

phishmeister68 · 2014-10-06, 13:03

The difference is Archer had to leave openings by necessity in the second fight, or he'll get cut up.

The VN explained what his tactics were in the second. And his tactics were just to survive. What tactics Archer employed in the first fight is only speculation. Saying he's got Eye of the Mind is not enough. So lets speculate.

You have the two actual fights to consider. The two fights are not the same.

Second fight, Archer was fighting for survival, Eye of the Mind.
First fight, Archer was trying to advance towards Lancer, but got rebuffed, Eye of the Mind.

Would Archer tactics be similar in the first as the second? Even if true, it's not on the same magnitude as the second fight. And because, at the very least, it won't be on the same magnitude, Lancer would be dictating the fight, not Archer dictating where Lancer hits, for the most part, at the very least, which is what I interpreted from the VN.

To put it plainly, if Lancer is doing only what Lancer wants to do, Archer can only react and defend, no prediction. Well in the first fight, Lancer was aiming for the head, neck, shoulders and heart. Archer defends, right? To say he intentionally expose these parts of his body is ludicrous. No matter how I look at it, Lancer is the one dictating the fight.

Archer is open everywhere before the start of battle anyway. During the battle is a bit harder to describe, but even with one sword, Archer still have a lot of opening, so its Lancer who chooses where to strike, thus dictating the fight. Only when Archer brings out two swords, then he only advances. That's how I interpret the VN. Plus it fits the mood as exactly describe, even if its from Rin's perspective.

Because the difference is when Lancer is on an onslaught in the second fight, Archer has to expose these parts, or whatever opening it is, to limit Lancer's number of thrusts, or he'll get cut up.

The secret is in there already. The secret word is onslaught. Should Lancer ignore Archer's opening, Archer will get cut up. Lancer had so many choices, but didn't fight intelligently, because he was lost in the joy. Lancer always had the ability to fight how he wants. Best Archer can do is tempt Lancer in the second fight, so I can't see even if he's doing it again in the first fight, I doubt it would have any meaningful impact on Lancer.

Plus, if I choose to look at it from that perspective, where Archer is leaving gaps in the first, wouldn't fit the narration at all.

Considering how would Archer leave fatal openings already in the first fight against somebody unknown? vs Considering would Lancer would just hit those spots anyway?

Considering how Archer leave fatal openings in the second fight just to survive, plus, not "vs considering", because this was explained in the VN, how Lancer fall for Archer's bait, because he got lost in the joy of battle.

Plus, considering how Archer only leaves opening, otherwise he'll get cut up, vs How Lancer wasn't as aggressive in the first battle.

The two points doesn't disagree with each other.

Why did Archer did what he did in the second fight? Did Archer did the same thing in the first fight? Is there a need for such a measure from Archer against Lancer the first time?

So that's the mood in the VN for the first fight. Archer just keep defending until he brought out two swords, then he stop retreating, only advance. That's the main difference to the anime. It's totally a different fight and a different mood compared to the VN.

And of course, the mood in the different swings in momentum between two combatants are missing. In the anime, they both just going at each other, plus a bit more emphasis on Archer being a bit stronger, pushing the action against Lancer.

And I'm just saying what I visualize in my head looks a lot better than the anime.

I tried looking objectively at the anime, where if I'm ignorant of the VN. I still guess it looks ok. But a bit over exaggerated and too fast to follow.

And regarding the Eye of the Mind skill. It's just a thing. I don't want it to be something where everything happens because Archer plans it. It has to have a limit. Every time you face someone new, if its purely just one on one combat, you can only adjust after exchanging a few blows. I don't think it's a skill where you're just always ready to fight whomever unknown you face and already have a few tactical options in your head beforehand.

And all this stems from one saying how in the anime, Archer barely defended against Lancer in the anime. No. Archer brought the fight to Lancer in the anime. Well, I guess he was defending when Lancer started disarming him. Archer was defending in the VN.

Also, Lancer thrusts at Archer's wrist, then sweep to disarm him. In the anime, he just pierce through his swords. So another example of not very well choreographed. Plus, if Lancer can pierce through Archer's sword, Archer effectively can not defend himself. Lancer should just thrust at his heart, piercing through his sword along the way.

DragoonKain3 · 2014-10-06, 22:22

Granted I pretty much breezed through UBW (been trolled by a friend that said that Sakura is actually a childhood friend so I wanted to get to Heaven's Feel ASAP

), but Lancer did disarm Archer 27 times and still no scratch on him. For a 'swordsman wannabe', that's truly impressive... if not for the fact that Lancer got command sealed to only 'observe' so he wasn't fighting at full strength.

So while the details are hazy on my memory for the first fight in VN, I'm pretty sure it was the second fight where Lancer was doing most of the offense. If second fight was where Lancer was at 100% strenght and he's doing 90% of the offense, I find it believable that the first fight where he'd be at, say, 75% of his strength and being only 60% on the offense. Which while I can't comment whether this first fight followed the LN to the letter, I still find that this anime's portrayal of the battle scene to be in the spirit of the source.

As to whether Archer was purposefully leaving gaps in his defense to 'bait' Lancer into making attacks that Archer can defend against... in the first battle? It's certainly possible, as we're talking about someone here who can replicate any weapon he has seen once, even for a split second, so he supposedly has good memory and attention to detail. Considering this Archer also has Rin's pendant (the one he 'gave back' was the one he had kept all this time from his own timeline), then that means he was also 'revived' by Rin (not that he needed it with Avalon and all, but I digress). Which implies this particular Archer did witness the prologue fight when he was still Shirou, since he wouldn't have had Rin's pendant if he didn't 'die' from Lancer.

So it's possible that Archer used his memories as Shirou to form a defense plan against Lancer the first time around. But it being from memories from so long ago (he did forget Tohsaka's name after all, silly goose, even though he recognizes Saber at first sight) and/or he actually hasn't experienced Lancer's attacks first hand (he'd only seen the battle from afar as Shirou), his defense might not be perfect. As such, the interpretation that he just 'barely can defend' against Lancer is sound too, since Lancer is not at full strength and Archer's understanding of Lancer's fighting style is also incomplete.

Either that, or Archer is real quick on learning the enemy and is defending against Lancer purely through his motor skills. After all, we're talking about the same person who slew Berserker six times before falling... when he himself wasn't at full strength at that time.

So no, I don't have a problem with ufotable's interpretation of the prologue fight. As someone who also read the VN and vaguely remembers the details, but remember the overall gist of the story, I think you guys are sweating the detail WAY too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seib9

Best GaeBolg ever. I wonder, Deen's animation was this ridiculed when the anime, and later the movie, come out or it was after everyone saw how good Fate/Zero looks?

From what I remember (granted it was like 8 years ago so it's a little hazy

), Deen wasn't heavily criticized in this board in the beginning. After Tsukihime's adaptation, ANYTHING was an upgrade for the LN purists. IIRC, the general opinion changed around the time of the 'golden dragon', from there on the show was mocked. Episode "People die if they are killed" didn't help matters. XD

(As someone who didn't follow the LN then, and who have read both LNs after the adaptations, I still hold the opinion that Tsukihime was a better told adapation than DEEN F/Sn despite Tsukihime straying further from the source. Just my 2c...)

Gundamx · 2014-10-07, 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

From what I remember (granted it was like 8 years ago so it's a little hazy

), Deen wasn't heavily criticized in this board in the beginning. After Tsukihime's adaptation, ANYTHING was an upgrade for the LN purists. IIRC, the general opinion changed around the time of the 'golden dragon', from there on the show was mocked. Episode "People die if they are killed" didn't help matters. XD

(As someone who didn't follow the LN then, and who have read both LNs after the adaptations, I still hold the opinion that Tsukihime was a better told adapation than DEEN F/Sn despite Tsukihime straying further from the source. Just my 2c...)

most non-vn reader like it including
( I only read the VN because I like the anime)

anime was good but if you read the VN than you won't like it

since VN was great not to mention they ignored Sakura so her fan hate it too

.

-They add golden dragon since they can't add 18+ scene at-least not in 2006

-"People die if they are killed" is just translator error so it have nothing to do with DEEN.

anyway, the anime at 2006 was really good anime, and thanks to it we get Fate/Zero anime with bigger budget.

just look at anime like "My Youth Romantic Comedy Is Wrong As I Expected"
because they don't know if it well sell or not, they give it low budget......
(yet it sell so well that they plan to make s2 but what the point?
after all they cut more half story of s1 thanks to low budget.)

GreyZone · 2014-10-07, 06:34

The one thing that DEEN not only did wrong but totally FAILED at, was the portrayal of Shirou. I am sure lots of the praise of those with preconceptions of the DEEN anime will be turning into "oh no it's that ginger head again, DROPPED" after a few minutes of the next episode.

There is no excuse for DEEN negatively affecting an adaption by another studio 8 years later... it is objectively bad.

brocko · 2014-10-07, 06:52

I dunno bout you guys, but my favourite part of the whole episode must've been this bit right here

Get wasted boy

Theminimanx · 2014-10-07, 06:56

I'm very curious how Ufo is going to handle Shirou. The thing that makes Shirou likeable in the VN is that he admits his contradictions and hypocrisy, which shows us how broken he is. That's very hard to do without the narration the VN has.

GreyZone · 2014-10-07, 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by brocko

I dunno bout you guys, but my favourite part of the whole episode must've been this bit right here
-snip-
Get wasted boy

DEEN infected #1 detected

...or was I just trolled? Yes, it seems I was really just trolled.

Amarantine · 2014-10-07, 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theminimanx

I'm very curious how Ufo is going to handle Shirou. The thing that makes Shirou likeable in the VN is that he admits his contradictions and hypocrisy, which shows us how broken he is. That's very hard to do without the narration the VN has.

They'll probably include more internal monologues in the form of voiceovers for him. We already heard some in the trailer (his remembrance of the big fire).

brocko · 2014-10-07, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

DEEN infected #1 detected
...or was I just trolled? Yes, it seems I was really just trolled.

Whoa, hold on there cowboy. Having a disdain for a character doesn't mean that one would automatically let it affect their enjoyment of the overall show. No need for such trigger happy fingers on them harsh internet labels.

2014-10-05, 19:30	Link #43
brocko Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ¯\(º_o)/¯	It's in there. Direct links aren't allowed so you'll have to copy paste and fix the link up yourself. (3m50s if timestamp doesn't work) Code: https://www.utube.com/watch?v=7obFlaRzAe8#t=3m50s __________________ http://www.freerice.com/ - For each word you get right, 10 grains of rice is donated through the UN to help end world hunger.

2014-10-06, 13:03	Link #52
phishmeister68 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2014	The difference is Archer had to leave openings by necessity in the second fight, or he'll get cut up. The VN explained what his tactics were in the second. And his tactics were just to survive. What tactics Archer employed in the first fight is only speculation. Saying he's got Eye of the Mind is not enough. So lets speculate. You have the two actual fights to consider. The two fights are not the same. Second fight, Archer was fighting for survival, Eye of the Mind. First fight, Archer was trying to advance towards Lancer, but got rebuffed, Eye of the Mind. Would Archer tactics be similar in the first as the second? Even if true, it's not on the same magnitude as the second fight. And because, at the very least, it won't be on the same magnitude, Lancer would be dictating the fight, not Archer dictating where Lancer hits, for the most part, at the very least, which is what I interpreted from the VN. To put it plainly, if Lancer is doing only what Lancer wants to do, Archer can only react and defend, no prediction. Well in the first fight, Lancer was aiming for the head, neck, shoulders and heart. Archer defends, right? To say he intentionally expose these parts of his body is ludicrous. No matter how I look at it, Lancer is the one dictating the fight. Archer is open everywhere before the start of battle anyway. During the battle is a bit harder to describe, but even with one sword, Archer still have a lot of opening, so its Lancer who chooses where to strike, thus dictating the fight. Only when Archer brings out two swords, then he only advances. That's how I interpret the VN. Plus it fits the mood as exactly describe, even if its from Rin's perspective. Because the difference is when Lancer is on an onslaught in the second fight, Archer has to expose these parts, or whatever opening it is, to limit Lancer's number of thrusts, or he'll get cut up. The secret is in there already. The secret word is onslaught. Should Lancer ignore Archer's opening, Archer will get cut up. Lancer had so many choices, but didn't fight intelligently, because he was lost in the joy. Lancer always had the ability to fight how he wants. Best Archer can do is tempt Lancer in the second fight, so I can't see even if he's doing it again in the first fight, I doubt it would have any meaningful impact on Lancer. Plus, if I choose to look at it from that perspective, where Archer is leaving gaps in the first, wouldn't fit the narration at all. Considering how would Archer leave fatal openings already in the first fight against somebody unknown? vs Considering would Lancer would just hit those spots anyway? Considering how Archer leave fatal openings in the second fight just to survive, plus, not "vs considering", because this was explained in the VN, how Lancer fall for Archer's bait, because he got lost in the joy of battle. Plus, considering how Archer only leaves opening, otherwise he'll get cut up, vs How Lancer wasn't as aggressive in the first battle. The two points doesn't disagree with each other. Why did Archer did what he did in the second fight? Did Archer did the same thing in the first fight? Is there a need for such a measure from Archer against Lancer the first time? So that's the mood in the VN for the first fight. Archer just keep defending until he brought out two swords, then he stop retreating, only advance. That's the main difference to the anime. It's totally a different fight and a different mood compared to the VN. And of course, the mood in the different swings in momentum between two combatants are missing. In the anime, they both just going at each other, plus a bit more emphasis on Archer being a bit stronger, pushing the action against Lancer. And I'm just saying what I visualize in my head looks a lot better than the anime. I tried looking objectively at the anime, where if I'm ignorant of the VN. I still guess it looks ok. But a bit over exaggerated and too fast to follow. And regarding the Eye of the Mind skill. It's just a thing. I don't want it to be something where everything happens because Archer plans it. It has to have a limit. Every time you face someone new, if its purely just one on one combat, you can only adjust after exchanging a few blows. I don't think it's a skill where you're just always ready to fight whomever unknown you face and already have a few tactical options in your head beforehand. And all this stems from one saying how in the anime, Archer barely defended against Lancer in the anime. No. Archer brought the fight to Lancer in the anime. Well, I guess he was defending when Lancer started disarming him. Archer was defending in the VN. Also, Lancer thrusts at Archer's wrist, then sweep to disarm him. In the anime, he just pierce through his swords. So another example of not very well choreographed. Plus, if Lancer can pierce through Archer's sword, Archer effectively can not defend himself. Lancer should just thrust at his heart, piercing through his sword along the way. Last edited by phishmeister68; 2014-10-07 at 14:39.

2014-10-07, 06:34	Link #55
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	The one thing that DEEN not only did wrong but totally FAILED at, was the portrayal of Shirou. I am sure lots of the praise of those with preconceptions of the DEEN anime will be turning into "oh no it's that ginger head again, DROPPED" after a few minutes of the next episode. There is no excuse for DEEN negatively affecting an adaption by another studio 8 years later... it is objectively bad. __________________

2014-10-07, 06:52	Link #56
brocko Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ¯\(º_o)/¯	I dunno bout you guys, but my favourite part of the whole episode must've been this bit right here Get wasted boy __________________ http://www.freerice.com/ - For each word you get right, 10 grains of rice is donated through the UN to help end world hunger.

2014-10-07, 06:56	Link #57
Theminimanx Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: GMT +1 Age: 28	I'm very curious how Ufo is going to handle Shirou. The thing that makes Shirou likeable in the VN is that he admits his contradictions and hypocrisy, which shows us how broken he is. That's very hard to do without the narration the VN has. __________________

2014-10-05, 19:21	Link #42
Amarantine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2014	I don't think the movie showed that fight. From what I can remember, they largely skipped the prologue and dived right into the divergence point for UBW in the movie. But I'm sure comparisons will be made for the second Archer vs Lancer fight, since the movie's rendition of it was particularly embarrassing. That one should only take place in the second cour though, so it's going to be a while still.

2014-10-06, 11:52	Link #48
phishmeister68 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2014	Is that the first fight or the second fight?

2014-10-06, 11:55	Link #49
Lorhand Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2013	The second. It doesn't matter though whether it's the first or the second, because Archer always makes use of his "Eye of the Mind" skill.

2014-10-06, 12:04	Link #50
phishmeister68 Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2014	I think first fight makes a difference. You can't approach every new enemy, and leave openings to predict where they'll hit. Like the first line, at least he had experienced them before. Plus in the first fight, Lancer was attacking, aiming for the head, throat, shoulder, and heart. I don't really care if Archer leave those area open, for sure Lancer just gonna go attack those anyway. A lance will always dictates the fight because of its reach, Archer can only defend the lance. The lance decides how the fight goes. Maybe for sure, Archer can be like Batman in the second fight, and be a tactical sleuth, if the VN says so. I think that second fight, only means limiting Lancer's onslaught, instant death or slowly cut up. Because Lancer is on an onslaught, Archer wants to limit Lancer's thrusts, otherwise it'll be too much to deal with, and he'll get cut up. Yea, for sure it doesn't have the same meaning in the first fight. There's a difference. I know Archer will always have the Eye of the Mind skill, but it's not the same in the first fight. He wasn't dealing with an onslaught in the first fight. And, yea, what can you get from all these? Lancer was doing the attacking for the majority in the VN. Archer was doing more attacking, making Lancer defend a fair bit in the anime.