2016-05-26, 15:10 | Link #41 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
Quote:
Also both manga confirm that they aren't behind Var at all. It's spread galaxy wide (unlikely those space bugs got infected via apples) and their first actual attack was the ones we saw in the beginning of the show, huh. That Char clone and his group might appear later. I think it's fairly obvious Windermerians are the bait-and-switch antagonists that would later team up against the big bads. That's why they are humanized and fleshed out. We can see they were good people two years before the war. The manga even stated their "anger and sadness" is the basis of their fight. We don't know yet what happened to ignite that war but it was really bad. They weren't angry at this point. The show hints that king was Arad's good friend. So something must have happened. The king is also convinced that they (the NUNs) used those dimensional nukes on them. I don't think he's lying either. Because of the runes flashing with his bitter feelings. Either humans messed up, or this third, big bad faction, that appears in the other manga is trying to turn the windermerians against the NUNs and the NUNS against the Windermerians, for, I don't know, var experiments. Without this, the Windermerians wouldn't have experimented the whole control the Var infected with song, IMO, which might be crucial for our mysterious shady group. You can see them in the manga. They aren't war crazy or into "liberation". Something changed that and upset their relationship in general. It's up to Chaos, with Delta and Walkure, to find out what went wrong. Their objective isn't to win the war, it's to stop it from happening.
__________________
Last edited by Thess; 2016-05-26 at 15:26. |
|
2016-05-26, 15:28 | Link #42 |
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
|
Then we have to dwell in detail as to what sovereignty was taken away. The Wind is not a parliamentary democracy, its a fedual monarchy. The NUN is completely lenient when it comes to planetary and colonial independence. This is stressed over and over again. The NUN does not install a new government upon contact with new races, and a war was actually fought so the NUN could be just that. If the Wind did lose sovereignty, it wouldn't have a king.
I think the Wind is perceiving a loss of sovereignty due to the loss of its protoculture ruins to various interests within the NUN, and the latter might have presented an impression that they weren't interested in sharing the results. Basically, its a less absolute colonial dynamic. Its an unequal treaty of sorts, which might lead to gradual loss of sovereignty, but not one ending in the loss of society, culture and existing government. Maybe. When countries have their resources monopolized by outside influence, it could be perceived as a loss of sovereignty. Its understandable. If Kawamori intends to compare Delta to the dynamics of Japanese modern history, then this goes both ways. The NUN here is behaving like industrialized & militarized Japan of the late 19th century, whereas the Wind is a shell shocked Japan dedicated to the ideals of rich country, strong military of the post Meiji restoration era. Nobody ever said the Wind was behind Var, they just weaponized the phenomenon. But otherwise yes, classical Macross setup will always reveal actual big bad. - Tak
__________________
Last edited by Tak; 2016-05-26 at 15:39. |
2016-05-26, 15:41 | Link #43 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
Quote:
If they were completely lenient, there wouldn't be a war at all. But there was. Why didn't they leave them be if they told them to sod off, huhh? You're kind of siding with faceless people without a POV here: Windermerians and Chaos have POV, NUNs don't. Chaos aren't with the Nuns. In fact, Mirage dropped the NUNS because she couldn't deal with their bloodshed. Which I imagine will have flesh out when we she's developed. They weren't lenient if they pissed off these people who were chilling and minding their business two years before the war. Quote:
We've a glimpse of Windermere two years before the war, from Keith's POV, and if they were upset, we would see this. While there is some kind of resentment, there's no hatred. Who knows what the Nuns (or this third faction masked as Nuns) did to really piss off the Windermerians and drive them to war. There's not even an inclination of war in their manga. Going by last episode, they do hint terrible torture and some shady stuff which made Roid step in and admonish his men for trying to "Be like the Nuns." So yeah, something really really happened to ignite this kind of hatred. Let's wait for the manga to catch up to have a catalyst. Let's remember their king was friends with people of Chaos. What happened to that man who was Arad's buddy to become such human hater? It seems more personal than just trade treatment. And as I said, let's keep an eye on that group who wants to control the var and are doing experiments before the Windermerians even capitalized it. Because they would surely find convenient that the race that coincidentally can control Varred people had a reason to fight just when they needed to run their experiments. Mind, I'm not saying Windermerians are right. I'm saying something provoked them to act like this. NUNS aren't the good guys either. Chaos is. Chaos is against war. However, I'm willing to give the NUNS a pass because we have a mysterious third faction behind the scenes in the prequel already. I'm betting they are manipulating NUNS and Windermerians.
__________________
|
||
2016-05-26, 15:49 | Link #44 | |||
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
- Tak
__________________
Last edited by Tak; 2016-05-26 at 16:01. |
|||
2016-05-26, 16:04 | Link #45 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Either way, we have implicit that the main members of the cast don't really like NUNS very much. Even so, I'm still betting the third faction is the source of the conflict because Windermerians look like have the key to control the var infected races which seemed to be what they were experimenting with. And they wouldn't have resorted on that if wasn't for their grudge and conflict. They could have given them a reason to be angry enough to do this to not drop the conflict after the independence was 'gained'. Because if their goal is reached, then they don't have a reason to continue to battle. For example: Imagine someone nukes your place, kills your family and destroys your life, and then claims you did it to yourself to the rest of the galaxy? Bet you'll be pissed too. I'm sure the King and the Windermerians didn't use those dimensional weapons on themselves, but the Nuns also didn't; these guys did it and let those two sides blame each other. Furthermore, that would make Windmerians not only unable to forgive but scared they would be nuked again enough to go on a liberation spread to assure to cut NUN control of neighboring planets. You cannot dismiss something like that, it's a reminder they could easily crush you and the freedom you have is fickle.
__________________
|
|||
2016-05-26, 16:13 | Link #46 |
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
|
I can also claim a loss of sovergninty if my neighbor's dog took a crap on my lawn. Except nobody will ever buy that claim seriously.
The Manga is echoing Wind's perspective, and by now an obvious plot device. But we do not know what exactly is lost. They are claming in the anime that they are actually 'freeing' the people of the system and regaining their 'sovergninty' except nobody but them feel that way. Roid claims a loss of sovergninty. Aerial Knights claim a loss of sovergninty. Heinz claims a loss of sovergninty. Then they blew themsleves up and lie to the public about it. The entire sector goes huh? and the audiences have no idea except making guesswork. So until I get something I can be convinced, I am calling the claims BS. - - - - - Mirage joined Chaos because she admired her aunt Mylene greatly and developed an interest in the Walkure, so when Arad scouted her out, the rest is history. And as far as killing goes, Chaos kill allies, brainwashed as they may be. Chaos has no qualm about killing, and fighting full scale wars either. Lets also not kid ourselves, its the military, you are trained to kill. You just don't talk about it. - Tak
__________________
Last edited by Tak; 2016-05-26 at 22:08. |
2016-05-26, 16:21 | Link #47 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2016-05-26, 16:43 | Link #48 | |
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
|
Quote:
Besides, being a blockhead, she probably thought she should join the NUNs, make herself noted so she could attact the attention of Chaos and Walkure. No wonder, when Hayate was selected to be an additional pilot, she went ballistic. - Tak
__________________
|
|
2016-05-26, 19:39 | Link #49 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 48
|
Yeah, it's not. South America's revolutions were mainly led by Criollos, meaning direct descendants of the Spanish conquistadores who, because they were born in South America, had less rights than their "pure Spanish" brethren. That doesn't correspond to the Windbags divine mandate philosophy.
__________________
|
2016-05-26, 19:56 | Link #50 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
|
Quote:
Depending on what actually happened, however, a violation of sovereignty may be a legitimate claim for Windermere. In fact, given the history of 'external powers coming in to improve the lives and update the world views of less developed people' in our own world, I'm inclined to believe that it is. The real questions are: what exactly happened, and was it serious enough to justify the Windermerean response?
__________________
|
|
2016-05-26, 20:14 | Link #51 |
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
|
Yeah, I know that Karice. But after eight episodes, I only see the Wind scream independence, unequal treaty and sovereignty, and not being told what they are except witnessing one contiunous douchebaggary after another. Nevermind the whole thing is not helped by their superiority complex. So when the big reveal comes (if it does), I don't want something like oh, we went to war because how dare they flood our planet with Fuji apples.
Yeah, because that would be akin to my neighbor's dog taking a crap on my lawn and I decided to retaliate by shooting the F-ing bastard. So echoing my earlier post: I better get something convincing, or the whole thing is BS. And the Wind already lost plenty of credibility for their hostile takeovers. - Tak
__________________
Last edited by Tak; 2016-05-26 at 20:35. |
2016-05-26, 20:19 | Link #52 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
|
Quote:
(And by the way, the groups weren't as homogenous as you think, there were peninsular spardians supporting the revolutions and criollos trying to destroy it in every single place ). Furthermore, not every country wanted that. As I said, as example, Peru was invaded by San Martin's and Bolivar's forces to be 'liberated', and they both tried to put up their own system which wasn't very popular. They were forced to be 'freed'. The "criollos" there in the vast majority sided with the Spanish Empire and were organizing their counter-revolution. Not just between what you know as countries today, but within the same regions. My province, for example, was pro-hispanic because the economic system favored them while the port-cities crushed their resistance to the interests of the cost-areas oligarchies. If you think that the independence was attained by the cooperation of homogenous groups instead of imposition from the minority, you'll be wrong. There were decades and decades of civil war within some countries as proof of their idea of unity is an illusion. It's all about changing the economic center to benefit them. This "we wanted to be freed" is all a rhetoric built to make their claim legitimate and palatable. Don't confused lectures of why independence happened to what actual interests moved these groups to take these actions, in context. I suggest reading Xavier Guerra who makes a comprehensive study about the construction of nation and people (as pueblo) to see how this has evolved. Anyway, I think the Windermerians are more like the heroic nature of the independent movements of ideals and politics, plus feel wronged by the NUNs actions (or who they believe was the NUNs). None of the knights we saw looked remotely interested in economics or trade. Yes, they do crush and invade regions that support the empire to ensure the independence. This happened TOO within the areas of the same country. And other countries when the American countries fought their independence war vs the Spanish Empire. Whether the locals liked it or not, they imposed one goal. Later the governments made sure to build heroic discourses about freedom and such. They built their history of nations about struggling to be defined which is a complete lie because when the revolutions took place the concept of nations, as we know today, was unknown. Quote:
I'm more inclined believing a group of people who has a manga which portrays them as a sympathetic and fleshed out characters than a faceless force that one of the main characters quit because she couldn't stand the way they do things, apparently. Just think about it. Doesn't mean Windermerians aren't doing wrong actions, but trying to whitewash or dismiss what the NUNS could be doing feels narrow-minded specially when Roid pretty much scolds his people for doing the same as the NUNS.
__________________
Last edited by Thess; 2016-05-26 at 20:46. |
||
2016-05-26, 21:18 | Link #53 | |
さっく♥ゆうきゃん♥ほそやん
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: in the land down under...
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2016-05-26, 21:57 | Link #54 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
|
Quote:
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...elineTF02A.php Quote:
With Ragna they are a joint government like with what happened with Terrans and Zentradi. Ragnans get the vote as much as everybody else probably outnumbering emigrants. Voldor don't have emigrants it seems but NUNS have bases contributing to the local economy and Voldorians make up much of the local NUNS. What did the Windermereans do? Give Voldorians a bad deal. Behave and we won't have to get your own people kill you and local produce is prohibited instead take these infected apples exported from our planet. Oh those ruins which you believe as holy sites its ours now. |
||
2016-05-26, 22:08 | Link #55 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
Quote:
I think we should wait until Delta reveals its own cards before jumping to conclusions about NUN's actions on Windermere.
__________________
|
|
2016-05-26, 22:10 | Link #56 | ||
Catholic = Cat addiction?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: MURICA!!
|
Quote:
Anyway look, this is not real life. This is the Wind, a nation consisting of kids at this moment looking as if they are throwing a fit. This perception might change, but at the moment, their actions aren't helping. Quote:
- Tak
__________________
Last edited by Tak; 2016-05-26 at 22:22. |
||
2016-05-26, 22:17 | Link #58 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
|
Quote:
The Galaxy Treaty also restricts the use of Reaction Weapons and Dimension Weapons. Which Mirage confirms on the previous episode. http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php Quote:
|
||
|
|