Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Character Powers

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by BW95

Mist Dispersal is like any other spell. So it can be stopped like any other spell.

What are they gonna stop it with? Cast jamming from antinite didn't do anything.
And it's never really mentioned how strong Tatsuya's zone interference strength is.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by IceHism

What are they gonna stop it with? Cast jamming from antinite didn't do anything.
And it's never really mentioned how strong Tatsuya's zone interference strength is.

Cast Jamming only works on activation sequences anyways. Since Mist Dispersal works like any other spell, it can be blocked by stuff like Parade and Gram Demolition.

[Flere821]

Originally Posted by IceHism

What are they gonna stop it with?

Spoiler for Vol12:

Gram Demolition can stop Mist Dispersal, given that sempai's duel with Tatsuya after the Shippou duels.

[Syokool]

Trying to get a view of the Scorched Halloween:

Spoiler for Nuke's scale:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

As to how to interpret it, I honestly have my doubts since Material Burst isn't like a normal(?) annihilation reaction.

Also looking for info about the first time it was used, but got not data about it.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by IceHism

What are they gonna stop it with? Cast jamming from antinite didn't do anything.
And it's never really mentioned how strong Tatsuya's zone interference strength is.

What Flere said, any counter magics who is not Data Fortification or Cast Jamming would probably work as well. And he can't use it on Parade unless he has Trident. Tatsuya doesn't know Zone Interference, even if he knew it would be weak because that's a normal spell but Gram Demolition and supposedly Gram Dispersion can be used even under the Zone .

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by IceHism

What are they gonna stop it with? Cast jamming from antinite didn't do anything.
And it's never really mentioned how strong Tatsuya's zone interference strength is.

Its not specifically mentioned, but from in v8 and v11 we get examples of how it is directly related to one's interference strength across all groups of magics. Since Tatsuya is only strong with 2 magics and really weak with all others, it can be inferred that his zone interference would also be really weak against all magic except for countering with zone interference someone using spells similar to his innate magics.

Originally Posted by Meltyred

Tatsuya may be strong, but his material burst is useless in a fight since even something as small as a droplet of water can create massive explosions.... well until we find out his regrowth makes him unkillable even if he uses material burst in his face.
Then he becomes a walking nuke zombie... haha

He is stuck using only a select few types of magic, and aside from his counter-magic, we can consider them about as strong as if a average magician had used it, so nothing too frightening there.
However, other high leveled magicians we have seen can use magics that Tatsuya can never use, and still be able to wield their own specialties freely, giving them a edge over Tatsuya.

So far nobody who has that kind of prowess has fought Tatsuya seriously, which is why he probably didn't break a sweat.

I agree with most of what you said except the part about Tatsuya not breaking a sweat. The novel points out Tatsuya having great difficulty several times. However Tatsuya's nature is one of always being calm under pressure, so even in the most dire situations, unless his sister is involved, he would barely show any frustration even in the face of his own demise.


I think its also important to add that his lack of magical talent means he cannot erect preemptive permanent strong magic defenses like barriers, fortification magic, zone interference and data fortification and must always do the impossible and offensively cancel the magician's magic in the few seconds during activation and manifestation to prevent injury. If the magic is slow enough and inefficient he can counter it or dodge it, but up against powerful magicians like those descended from the 10 master clans he's lost out in speed when tying to counter them when they've used their own favorite magics.

[IceHism]

I see, so if there is a counter to mist dispersal, is there a counter to Tatsuya using his counter magic along with mist dispersal? like say if he used gram demolition or gram dispersion before.

[Galacticichi]

Originally Posted by Guest2

I think its also important to add that his lack of magical talent means he cannot erect preemptive permanent strong magic defenses like barriers, fortification magic, zone interference and data fortification and must always do the impossible and offensively cancel the magician's magic in the few seconds during activation and manifestation to prevent injury. If the magic is slow enough and inefficient he can counter it or dodge it, but up against powerful magicians like those descended from the 10 master clans he's lost out in speed when tying to counter them when they've used their own favorite magics.

This is most likely the reason for Tatsuya having Regrowth since he has no other reliable defenses against fast magic when Gram Demolition fails. Even given that, it may be a bit too strong.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Galacticichi

This is most likely the reason for Tatsuya having Regrowth since he has no other reliable defenses against fast magic when Gram Demolition fails. Even given that, it may be a bit too strong.

Its certainly a powerful advantage but it would still not help much if the opponent knows about it or realizes in time that 1 finishing attack may not be enough. Or if he receives a outer-systematic mental interference-type attack which his restoration cannot undo.

Originally Posted by IceHism

I see, so if there is a counter to mist dispersal, is there a counter to Tatsuya using his counter magic along with mist dispersal? like say if he used gram demolition or gram dispersion before.

I'm not sure what you are asking, because he normally uses a specialized CAD to up his speed Tatsuya cannot cast counter magic simultaneously with Mist Dispersal. And Gram Demolition would simultaneously disrupt his own spells.

Do you mean if Tatsuya cast his counter magic before the opponent cast theirs, maybe like how Trident was used at the end of v4? The Trident spells uses the magics in succession and its speed is what makes it so deadly. A person can recast their defensive or offensive magic if they're destroyed, so it all depends on the person's talent and equipment to see if they can outcast the triple spell Trident.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Its certainly a powerful advantage but it would still not help much if the opponent knows about it or realizes in time that 1 finishing attack may not be enough. Or if he receives a outer-systematic mental interference-type attack which his restoration cannot undo.





I'm not sure what you are asking, because he normally uses a specialized CAD to up his speed Tatsuya cannot cast counter magic simultaneously with Mist Dispersal. And Gram Demolition would simultaneously disrupt his own spells.

Do you mean if Tatsuya cast his counter magic before the opponent cast theirs, maybe like how Trident was used at the end of v4? The Trident spells uses the magics in succession and its speed is what makes it so deadly. A person can recast their defensive or offensive magic if they're destroyed, so it all depends on the person's talent and equipment to see if they can outcast the triple spell Trident.

Well i think that most counter magic outside of gram demolition is normal magic so it should have an activation sequence. So i was wondering what if Tatsuya just broke it really quickly from a distance and then used trident.

Though I remember tatsuya saying that it's probably impossible for him to stop a competent magician(like Lina) from casting a spell so i guess breaking activation sequences is probably out of the question.

Just wondering.., I thought decomposition goes through most normal forms of counter magic like data fortification and the like since he can just target the actual counter magic itself with his decomposition and the only thing it probably doesn't work on is stuff like the other gram demolition, parade, and phalanx.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by IceHism

Well i think that most counter magic outside of gram demolition is normal magic so it should have an activation sequence. So i was wondering what if Tatsuya just broke it really quickly from a distance and then used trident.

As long as Tatsuya is fast enough he can destroy activation sequences like he did to the evil eye user in v2. G. Dispersion being his innate magic, only the most powerful magicians also using their favorite magics would be able to finish casting before he could intercept their magic, like you've mentioned with Lina.

Originally Posted by IceHism

Just wondering.., I thought decomposition goes through most normal forms of counter magic like data fortification and the like since he can just target the actual counter magic itself with his decomposition and the only thing it probably doesn't work on is stuff like the other gram demolition, parade, and phalanx.

While I wouldn't use the term goes through, decomposition can be used to destroy any magic. Which includes data fortification, parade, and phalanx. Gram demolition is also offensive counter magic, so there is little purpose to wait for someone else to activate gram demolition, just to use counter magic against it. The problem stated in the novel by Tatsuya for both Phalanx and Parade is mainly the great speed with which those individual mages can spam their magics, if Tatsuya is somehow fast enough he could destroy those spells before they activate..

[BW95]

Originally Posted by Syokool

Trying to get a view of the Scorched Halloween:

Spoiler for Nuke's scale:

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

As to how to interpret it, I honestly have my doubts since Material Burst isn't like a normal(?) annihilation reaction.

Also looking for info about the first time it was used, but got not data about it.

WOW. Thanks. That's one pretty convenient site.

Gram Dispersion isn't an innate magic. It's just something Tatsuya can do thanks to his Elemental Sight.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by BW95

Gram Dispersion isn't an innate magic. It's just something Tatsuya can do thanks to his Elemental Sight.

Gram Dispersion is a spell he uses that's described in the novel also as part of his classified Decomposition magic. Which is his innate magic.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Gram Dispersion is a spell he uses that's described in the novel also as part of his classified Decomposition magic. Which is his innate magic.

It is a type of Decomposition magic, but it's something anyone can do in a controlled setting and it's only classified because using it would reveal that he has Elemental Sight.

It's not like Tatsuya can use it because he's specialized in Decomposition magic.

[Guest2]

Thats exactly what its like. Unless you've found somewhere in the novel that indicates Tatsuya's Gram Dispersion is unrelated to is innate Decomposition magic, I can only stand by my statement since thats the info we've been given.

Even though Tatsuya instantly made the call that Gram Demolition wasn't going to make it in time, he resolutely refused to use "Decomposition". He stubbornly stuck to his orders to keep classified magic under wraps.
He hid the fact that he was capable of "decomposing" information structures through "Gram Dispersal" and met the attack with "Gram Demolition".

[Lazy cat]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Thats exactly what its like. Unless you've found somewhere in the novel that indicates Tatsuya's Gram Demolition is unrelated to is innate Decomposition magic, I can only stand by my statement since thats the info we've been given.

then by your logic tomitsuka can use decomposition magic? the only thing that gram demolition and gram dispersion have in common is that both act directly on the gram, their metodology is completely diferent

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Thats exactly what its like. Unless you've found somewhere in the novel that indicates Tatsuya's Gram Demolition is unrelated to is innate Decomposition magic, I can only stand by my statement since thats the info we've been given.

Mayumi commented on the 2 gram spells the first time Tatsuya used Gram Demolition in public, that's the proof that Gram Dispersion and Decompostion magic aren't linked, just like Gram Demolition, Gram Dispersions is a rare counter magic. The techniques may be similar but that's all.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Lazy cat

then by your logic tomitsuka can use decomposition magic? the only thing that gram demolition and gram dispersion have in common is that both act directly on the gram, their metodology is completely diferent

Sorry, that was a typo on my part. I meant to put Gram Dispersion. I wasn't talking about Gram Demolition.

[BW95]

Originally Posted by Guest2

Thats exactly what its like. Unless you've found somewhere in the novel that indicates Tatsuya's Gram Dispersion is unrelated to is innate Decomposition magic, I can only stand by my statement since thats the info we've been given.

For starters, Decomposition, all of it, isn't innate magic. It's Tatsuya's born specialized magic. Average magicians can use decomposition magic to a certain extent like breaking an object, but none can do it to the degree one the molecular level that Tatsuya can. Innate magic would be something like Miyuki's Cocytus. No matter how specialized someone is in freezing magic, they could never freeze a person's soul. That is a completely brand new area that no average magician could do on any level. Furthermore, BS magicians suffer in other areas of magic due to their specialized skill, but innate magic users don't.

As for Gram Dispersion,

Magic Dissolution (Gram Dispersion) This magic takes a Magic Ritual and decomposes it into a group of Psion particles without a meaningful structure. Due to the nature of a Magic Ritual acting on the information of an object accompanying a phenomenon, if the information has not been exposed, it is impossible to interfere with the magic. On the other hand, if the Magic Ritual is decomposed, the phenomenon will not occur. To analyze the magic before the magic is activated in the present age where invocation takes a fraction of a second requires the ability to [See] and analyze the magic structure. Since the user is typically required to understand the magic being used beforehand, it is thought utilization of this magic is impossible.

In other words, the only hurdle to using this spell is understanding of the targeted magic beforehand, which is usually impossible in a practical setting without Elemental Sight.

Furthermore,

"Gram Demolition uses compressed psion particles to directly detonate the target by charging forward without using the Information Dimension. This Counter Magic is accomplished by forcibly blowing away all the accompanying Activation and Magic Sequences — anything that has traces of magic psions recorded on it.
This is a magic that demolishes the record of magic (Gram), hence the name Gram Demolition.
While it is called magic, this is strictly a psion cannon ball that makes no attempt to use Magic Sequences to alter reality. This way, Gram Demolition is not restricted by Data Fortification or wide area interference, and the cannon ball's own pressure would reject any effects of Cast Jamming.
Since there's no actual physical effect, physical obstructions can do nothing.
This way, the magic that your opponent is casting is forcibly blown away by the psions.
In order to halt that kind of furious charge, a multi-layered defensive wall of psions might barely hold up.
Besides its rather short effective range, there are almost no weaknesses. Along with Gram Dispersion, Gram Demolition is known as one of the strongest Counter Magics within Nonsystematic Magic... But there are very few people capable of performing this feat.
I cannot do it either.
Since this isn't an interference ability but a true dispersion, I am unable to create that kind of force with my psion count.
In summation, it's a super heavyweight!"

Mayumi here clearly demonstrates knowledge of Gram Dispersion. So the spell itself isn't classified, but the information that Tatsuya can use it.

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by BW95

For starters, Decomposition, all of it, isn't innate magic. It's Tatsuya's born specialized magic. Average magicians can use decomposition magic to a certain extent like breaking an object, but none can do it to the degree one the molecular level that Tatsuya can. Innate magic would be something like Miyuki's Cocytus. No matter how specialized someone is in freezing magic, they could never freeze a person's soul. That is a completely brand new area that no average magician could do on any level. Furthermore, BS magicians suffer in other areas of magic due to their specialized skill, but innate magic users don't.

I don't believe there is anything in the novel that indicates that sort of difference in definitions. Look here...

Originally Posted by v3 Novel translation quote

BS Magicians, also known as BS ability users, could also be called innate ability users or innate magic specialists.

In v2 Tatsuya talks about his specialized Decomposition magic talent and links it with his ability to decompose activation and magic sequences, explaining all of it as just 1 very difficult magic. The ability to directly interfere with the design information.

Originally Posted by BW95

In other words, the only hurdle to using this spell is understanding of the targeted magic beforehand, which is usually impossible in a practical setting without Elemental Sight.
...
Mayumi here clearly demonstrates knowledge of Gram Dispersion. So the spell itself isn't classified, but the information that Tatsuya can use it.

I never disputed the definition given for the spell, but when Tatsuya uses the spell it is described as part of the Decomposition ability he was born with. I actually pointed out the novel quote that shows Tatsuya specifically calls his Decomposition magic classified, then goes on to call the said decomposition magic, Gram dispersal. Its not a personal opinion its a quote from the v4c10 translation.