Log Horizon - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[Kokukirin]

If Touya dies, he respawns at Akihabara. That would spell the end of the training camp for him and the team is left without a tank. So running away together at the first hint of defeat is the right thing to do.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Well, you have to remember that there's not exactly a lot of time after death for a rez. If Touya died here while the others ran back to the entrance, he'd respawn back at the cathedral in Akiba. Which is, what, several hours away at least?

Originally Posted by Kokukirin

If Touya dies, he respawns at Akihabara. That would spell the end of the training camp for him and the team is left without a tank. So running away together at the first hint of defeat is the right thing to do.

There should be respawn points near dungeons other than the Cathedrals. Like any MMOs. Otherwise it'd be impossible to raid.

(I actually know of a more detailed answer for how respawn locations work, but ugh, mild spoilers and all. )

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by aohige

I have to object about Touya turning heels and running with the team as they retreat.
Although I've been out of loop for a year or two, I was a seasoned main tank for our raid team for years.
If it's actually an escapable situation, it's OUR job to hold off the enemy as long as possible to buy your teammates precious seconds to run to the instance exit. Our job is to hold ground and DIE, when things turn sour.
Grab every aggro possible, pop all your short-medium CDs! (don't pop your long CDs, you may need them after the rez!)

I know Naotsugu would have!

He's not a seasoned tank, he's still a newbie. He can be forgiven for not knowing the "proper" way to retreat or thinking about it that initial moment of panic in the retreat.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by aohige

There should be respawn points near dungeons other than the Cathedrals. Like any MMOs. Otherwise it'd be impossible to raid.

(I actually know of a more detailed answer for how respawn locations work, but ugh, mild spoilers and all. )

Well even with the more detailed answer the dying and running back to a dungeon bit in Elder Tales isn't very convenient.

Mostly though I think the aversion to dying isn't the travel times and more just that dying is unpleasant and scary on a psychological level. Yes, they're immortal but until not long ago they were normal people with the mindset of "let's not try and die today, okay?" It's hard to break that habit and, all things considered, it's probably not a habit you want to break anyways. So yes, the tank should die first if dying is necessary, but unless you have to, don't die at all is better.

[Anime Online]

Well, the training camp attendees are inexperienced in team battles, so it is natural they will mess up all over the place. On the other hand, this begs the question: what exactly did they do in preparation for the dungeon adventuring besides having a bbq?

[The Green One]

This episode went out of it's way to show that Minori's party is not a true team yet. There's no group cohesion or plan. Minori tried rather timidly to start a strategy meeting but couldn't get the discussion going.

The trainers I'm betting gave some general pointers and taught them the basics, but there's no better experience then actually getting in there and having your first dungeon raid and let come what may. Sure this raid was an abysmal failure, it'll be seeing what lessons they take from this that will dictate the direction this fledgling team grows in.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by WhiteJoker

Well even with the more detailed answer the dying and running back to a dungeon bit in Elder Tales isn't very convenient.

Mostly though I think the aversion to dying isn't the travel times and more just that dying is unpleasant and scary on a psychological level. Yes, they're immortal but until not long ago they were normal people with the mindset of "let's not try and die today, okay?" It's hard to break that habit and, all things considered, it's probably not a habit you want to break anyways. So yes, the tank should die first if dying is necessary, but unless you have to, don't die at all is better.

Right, by no means I'm saying he should take death lightly.
But the reason for tanks to hold the line in retreat is to keep his comrades from dying.
It's putting your own life in line to save others. It's part of our job.
Running away head first isn't ideal for tanks, and obviously he has a long way to go there.

Originally Posted by The Green One

He's not a seasoned tank, he's still a newbie. He can be forgiven for not knowing the "proper" way to retreat or thinking about it that initial moment of panic in the retreat.

Of course, and that's why I brought up Naotsugu. Kid's got a way to go! Don't disappoint your sensei.

[Dark Faith]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Dance sequence reminded me of the dance minigame from Sid Meier's Pirates. And that dungeon raid brings in mind Thanatos Tower in Ragnarok online.

With all the undead I was thinking more of Payon Dungeon
I don't know how easy it is to level in Elder Tale, but lacking basic knowledge about your skills at level 2X is kind of sad...especially Minori, who I imagine partied pretty often with Tohya.

A tank rushing forth and getting overaggro'd is a classic tho.. the memories *wipes a tear*

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by The Green One

He's not a seasoned tank, he's still a newbie. He can be forgiven for not knowing the "proper" way to retreat or thinking about it that initial moment of panic in the retreat.

Even a season tank might panic in this current Elder Tale since they now have to feel pain when they take damage or die that makes it a heck of a lot different from a regular mmo. But yeah Tohya needs some work and Rudy the sooner Isuzu gets him whipped the better.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Dark Faith

I don't know how easy it is to level in Elder Tale, but lacking basic knowledge about your skills at level 2X is kind of sad...especially Minori, who I imagine partied pretty often with Tohya.

Not really. She's spent most of her time locked up in Hamelin's guild hall, sewing. Her brother's spent a lot more time fighting than she has.

We also don't know how recently she acquired that particular skill. She may not have had much chance to use it. It's not like she has access to online information telling her how exactly each of these skills work, either. I'm not even sure what exactly went wrong. "I need to use my magic first or it won't work" isn't a very clear explanation, since A: that sure looked like magic to me, and B: I don't even know what that spell was supposed to do, specifically.

[Nvis]

How long before they craft a "gun"?

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by Nvis

How long before they craft a "gun"?

Nothing personal but... what is with people and the "make guns and that'll solve everything lol!" mentality?

[Netto Azure]

If I remember correctly, this was my favorite part of the current available stuff from the series. Lots of good interactions, Rudie is freaking hilarious, Princess NEET-o and of course the lovely political intrigue with the Nobles. Oh so much fun. :3

The reason why Guns are so widely sought after for a medieval fantasy setting is that while Archers or Magicians take a few months or a year to gain proficiency in, guns require only a short time frame of a month at most to be just as good as Archers or Magicians for projectile proficiency with a higher rate of fire so to speak for the same amount of damage.

[Wandering_Youth]

Aww, this episode reminded me of my first time playing my very own MMO. I can totally understand Minor and Serara's roles as I myself always plays the healer. When things get ugly run away!

[ices]

This anime made me think to try MMORPG. Well, they sure make it enjoyable for non-gamer like me. I hope this continue to end.

In other note, I've come to fall in love with Minori character. Her VA did a great job portray her character.

The last, this anime has some great music. The Elder Tale OST remind me of some game song I played long ago. There also a calming music played while Minori made a call to Shiroe.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

The reason why Guns are so widely sought after for a medieval fantasy setting is that while Archers or Magicians take a few months or a year to gain proficiency in, guns require only a short time frame of a month at most to be just as good as Archers or Magicians for projectile proficiency with a higher rate of fire so to speak for the same amount of damage.

I understand the logical reasons in the real world, and crossbows would be more efficient with existing infrastructure, however Log Horizon has clearly displayed on several instances that conventional physics and Log Horizon physics are not the same thing. You can argue that guns are easier to train up then archers easily (though with early gun technology that's just because you were opting for mass fire tactics as opposed to any sort of accuracy), however the argument for mass low level gunners against a high level mage doesn't work, not when a mage can use traditional medieval fantasy spells like fireball, and especially not when there's no indication that a bullet to the head will be any more fatal than a sword to the head (i.e. weapons and attacks deal fixed damage). Arguing that a high level warrior, for example, would be more efficient with a gun despite class restrictions and the advantages that magical game physics imparts on levels and class abilities is just further folly.

Really, gun tech would really only help the Landers and even then you'd need very advanced gun tech to matter (as in rapid reloading ability with rifling for accuracy).

[Anime Online]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Not really. She's spent most of her time locked up in Hamelin's guild hall, sewing. Her brother's spent a lot more time fighting than she has.

We also don't know how recently she acquired that particular skill. She may not have had much chance to use it. It's not like she has access to online information telling her how exactly each of these skills work, either. I'm not even sure what exactly went wrong. "I need to use my magic first or it won't work" isn't a very clear explanation, since A: that sure looked like magic to me, and B: I don't even know what that spell was supposed to do, specifically.

Characters in Elder Tale have a combat profession and a non-combat profession, and both professions have separate levels. This is demonstrated in Episode 3: Serara spent so much time cleaning Nyanta-san's house she became a level 44 maid, while her druid class was at level 19. Hence, with Minori's shrine maiden level at 21, she would have some experience in using her class abilities to fight.

However, there are certain skills in MMO which are only useful for party battles against big game. Even if such skills are learned early, they are rarely used, since they are not required for solo hunting. Inexperience in the use of such skills will often result in situations faced by Minori: realization that the shield cast should be cast in advance and the long casting time of the other support spell.

[Netto Azure]

Well, I was just pointing out that's the reason why Gunners would be important. Though if applied to the Adventurers, then yes of course the standard Class-system would benefit them much much more than developing small armaments. Still for the Landers, projectile weaponry such as guns would be a revolution in warfare (i.e. Guarding the towns from mobs could be much more efficiently done by the local low-leveled militia) and would allow the Landers to stop crowding around in the cities due to fear of Monster Mobs.

Though of course, it will lead to incessant warfare between the nations of Yamato, unless the Round Table acts as a neutral arbiter.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

However, there are certain skills in MMO which are only useful for party battles against big game. Even if such skills are learned early, they are rarely used, since they are not required for solo hunting. Inexperience in the use of such skills will often result in situations faced by Minori: realization that the shield cast should be cast in advance and the long casting time of the other support spell.

This mostly. I call it a rotation, I'm not sure what other people call it, but it's the order which you use your skills in to get the most optimal results and limit the amount of time where you or your skills aren't doing something (while taking account of cooldowns and cast times). In a lot of cases with MMOs you can get by with whatever rotation and skills when you solo or do non-raid/dungeon things but dungeons are scaled for parties and expects that your party will have the basic trinity which means less leeway for hesitation. We saw them get by with one fight but when things got worse, they fell apart which is where having a rotation would have helped alleviate things. Minori's gaff was basically knowing about the idea of a rotation but not having worked it out to where it's instinctive and defaulting to what I'm assuming was her "panic button" skill (a panic button skill being something like the Guardian's Castle of Stone).

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Well, I was just pointing out that's the reason why Gunners would be important. Though if applied to the Adventurers, then yes of course the standard Class-system would benefit them much much more than developing small armaments. Still for the Landers, projectile weaponry such as guns would be a revolution in warfare (i.e. Guarding the towns from mobs could be much more efficiently done by the local low-leveled militia) and would allow the Landers to stop crowding around in the cities due to fear of Monster Mobs.

I think that would depend on whether guns worked like our guns and a few shots could kill things, or if they worked like MMO weapons in that it's scaled to level/rarity/skill. If it's the former then sure but if it's the latter then not really since having a gun that could one-hit something would be the same as having Mjolnir: it's useless unless you have an elite/Ancient around to use it.

Edit: Anyways, I was more commenting because the context the gun thing usually comes up in is Adventurers using guns and not Landers. It comes up a lot and I just do not understand the reasoning for it beyond "I like guns! Guns are cool! They should use guns!"