Log Horizon - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Domonkazu]

as I thought the fastest way to get 5M is to sell the recipe to greedy peoples.

[The Green One]

The main problem the group had is they don't have the resources and the manpower to sell at the massive demand that would spring up for the real food. The major production guilds however do have the necessary resources to fully exploit this. I could understand them practically frothing at the mouth to get in on this potential gold mine.

[Whitemoon648]

I still stick by my theory of unite and share recipe from last episode.

But OMG AKATSUKI and Henrieta moments are AWESOME.

"This Smell ...., Akatsuki chan" .

[Anime Online]

The main problem with offering the recipes to the three largest guilds in Akiba means the recipes would lose most of their value. When everyone is able to cook the Crescent Burger, then it's no longer anything special. Hence, I believe Crescent Moon should have offered to sell the secrets to the highest bidder.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

The main problem with offering the recipes to the three largest guilds in Akiba means the recipes would lose most of their value. When everyone is able to cook the Crescent Burger, then it's no longer anything special. Hence, I believe Crescent Moon should have offered to sell the secrets to the highest bidder.

Except it doesn't matter. They're getting all the money they need from the guilds. Remember making the most potential money isn't the goal, the goal is to acquire the 5 million necessary for Shiroe's plan through any means.

[Anime Online]

Originally Posted by Xacual

Except it doesn't matter. They're getting all the money they need from the guilds. Remember making the most potential money isn't the goal, the goal is to acquire the 5 million necessary for Shiroe's plan through any means.

I'd say it does. It doesn't make much sense for all three guilds to put down so much money for a secret all of them have to share. A secret is prized because it is a secret. When it becomes common knowledge, it no longer retains value.

KFC's original recipe of fried chicken cooked with 11 spices is special because it is special. Nobody else is able to make the same fried chicken and undercut them. Cocoa Cola's cola recipe is prized because nobody else can make the exact same cola. In these cases, the company doesn't even want to patent their recipes because that will mean they have to write down the ingredients and how to make it in the patents.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

As far as I could tell, they were buying into a partnership with Crescent Moon on the agreement that they would share the profits from the means of making food that has taste and from whatever Crescent Moon's current plan is when the plan was finished. They chose to accept that arrangement without clarification on their own. They knew they weren't being told the whole story, and they chose to accept the terms anyway, making assumptions about what the rest of the story was. As far as I can tell, they are still going to get everything they paid for, so it's not like they're losing anything. You can't argue fraud when the so-called defrauding party completely holds up their end of the deal. They'll get the means to make food, and the benefits from Shiroe's operation. The fact that the money will probably be used for a property purchase rather than quest preparation isn't really material: they are still going to get the things that they agreed to pay that money for.

No, she intentionally mislead them with false tense.
"mislead" is the keyword here. Like I said, your case won't hold at all in court of law.

You're missing the point. This WAS fraud.
That's the entire point of Shiroe's conversation with Henrietta. That's why he chose those words, and that's why her thought process reflected it.
The entire point of the foreshadowing conversation was this, and why "lack of rules" is abuseable here.

The actual words used in the source material was There's no rules. If there's no rules you can use methods to gain money... and by gain you mean "rob" them of their money. It was much more clear the intention was to dupe them out of money.

That's the context, although it's a bit murkier in the anime (several lines of Henrietta's mislead were cut, such as wording it to sound like a battle with each members holding correlating positions), it's still clearly there.

[monir]

The episode was a bit more confusing for me. I still couldn't reason well enough for why those groups would want to invest that money. Regardless of how the promises were open ended which lead to self interpretation, how exactly Shiroe and co. not fulfill or pay some sort of dividend to those investments? Just because those guys are believing what they want to believe, it still doesn't relieve Shiroe from his own obligation to these people.

Am I making any sense, or do I sound even more confused?

[Whitemoon648]

Originally Posted by monir

The episode was a bit more confusing for me. I still couldn't reason well enough for why those groups would want to invest that money. Regardless of how the promises were open ended which lead to self interpretation, how exactly Shiroe and co. not fulfill or pay some sort of dividend to those investments? Just because those guys are believing what they want to believe, it still doesn't relieve Shiroe from his own obligation to these people.

Am I making any sense, or do I sound even more confused?

First the merchants misunderstood shiroe's "Major operation" as a "legendary quest/w very profitable reward". If the quest/operation succeed they will get huge profits. That is what they thought and the conversation about the profit was in their mind.

So they can't claim that they were tricked. Challenge, quest, operation can all be interchangeable.

What they were promised was basically their recipe and their method of cooking ( more profit for them) and details about their plan ( maybe more profit here). Key point is that no one knows about the cooking method. Many people think it is probably from recipe ( or similar skill) of some sort. Since the method isn't known, they can make huge profit from them if they can get their hands on them.

On other hand what they are giving it out isn't really much. We heard Karashin say that 1.5 million is the asset of only 100 people ( out of their 700 member) and the other guy said, he could even give all himself. So in their eyes 1.5 million gold isn't that much. In return they think they are actually the one that are profiting and it's a better deal for them ( by far).

lastly, Shiroe supposed to be the leader of one of the strongest groups in the game history. If he is the one who is leading it, they are bound to succeed. So the risk ( in their eyes) isn't that high. Who else better than Shiroe the leader/strategist of the infamous Debauchery Tea Party to lead them?

So they were never tricked. This is how i understood it at least .

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

The main problem with offering the recipes to the three largest guilds in Akiba means the recipes would lose most of their value. When everyone is able to cook the Crescent Burger, then it's no longer anything special. Hence, I believe Crescent Moon should have offered to sell the secrets to the highest bidder.

If they only selected the highest bidder, then they would lose the cooperation of the other two groups; they already made a deal with Charasin, but Oceanic Systems/Michitaka was their highest bidder (or at least, probably had the highest bidding capability).

As Shiroe and Henrietta have mentioned, their goal isn't money in particular. Crescent Moon itself doesn't care whether it loses business from sharing its secret. They're using the secret as a bargaining chip by making it a big deal (which, of course, it is) to attract the attention of the other large guilds' leaders.

[FuzzySenpai]

I'm falling more in love with this anime more and more with each episode

[Lightning_Wing]

I do have to say that was very good. Enjoying the hell out of the slow and multifaceted plot course, perfectly fitting how the lead character Shiroe, the engineer, is building his world by his own means.
(This leads me to realize how democratic Log Horizon is, compared to other series of similar premise; i.e. SAO, .hack. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.)

And as always, that beautifully simple ending theme to finish it off. Loving it.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Lightning_Wing

I do have to say that was very good. Enjoying the hell out of the slow and multifaceted plot course, perfectly fitting how the lead character Shiroe, the engineer, is building his world by his own means.
(This leads me to realize how democratic Log Horizon is, compared to other series of similar premise; i.e. SAO, .hack. But that's a discussion for elsewhere.)

And as always, that beautifully simple ending theme to finish it off. Loving it.

not democratic, there is currently nothing democratic about Akiba. The only rule sis there are no rules, it is basically a libertarians wet dream.

[The Green One]

It hasn't been democratic as no one has been able to put aside their self interest enough to try to compromise other then Crescent Moon.

[Sheba]

Democratic is not the word the poster wanted to use, I think. "Sandbox-y" is closer to what make Log Horizon stand out compared to its more "railroaded" counterpart which spoonfed you with a goal and rules (clear the game, also you will die for real no but no if).

Elder Tales is closer to a western rpg such as Elder Scrolls or a sandbox MMO such as EVE Online. EVE is the most triumphant example of a player-driven MMO, in all of its aspects, from economy to politics. Elder Tales the world is the closest thing to EVE if it was a sandbox fantasy MMO.

[Kyu Renjo]

The negotiation scene is really good. Last time I saw the scene like that was in Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon, and I am feeling hyped on both.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Anime Online

I'd say it does. It doesn't make much sense for all three guilds to put down so much money for a secret all of them have to share. A secret is prized because it is a secret. When it becomes common knowledge, it no longer retains value.

KFC's original recipe of fried chicken cooked with 11 spices is special because it is special. Nobody else is able to make the same fried chicken and undercut them. Cocoa Cola's cola recipe is prized because nobody else can make the exact same cola. In these cases, the company doesn't even want to patent their recipes because that will mean they have to write down the ingredients and how to make it in the patents.

They know. That's why Mitchika offered to be the sole sponsor. The problem is that the final decision lies with the seller, and the Crescent Moon Alliance has no interest in giving any one of the guilds monopoly on the secret. It actually would go against their end-goal, which is a better life in Akiba.

When a seller gives you a choice between either "share in the secret of the recipe" or "stay out of it alltogether" the choice is obvious. Shared profit is better than no profit.

[watisit]

Originally Posted by Domonkazu

as I thought the fastest way to get 5M is to sell the recipe to greedy peoples.

Isn't that what they are doing? Promising them the recipe and implying to give even more recipes beyond that?

Originally Posted by monir

The episode was a bit more confusing for me. I still couldn't reason well enough for why those groups would want to invest that money. Regardless of how the promises were open ended which lead to self interpretation, how exactly Shiroe and co. not fulfill or pay some sort of dividend to those investments? Just because those guys are believing what they want to believe, it still doesn't relieve Shiroe from his own obligation to these people.

Am I making any sense, or do I sound even more confused?

1.5 mil for food recipes over 10,000 people will buy? And info about a quest which costs 5 mil gold (implying the returns should be a quite a bit too)? Sounds like a decent deal.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by watisit

1.5 mil for food recipes over 10,000 people will buy? And info about a quest which costs 5 mil gold (implying the returns should be a quite a bit too)? Sounds like a decent deal.

15000 in Akiba alone. Even if you only get a third of that customer base, you'd have that 1.5 million back within a week.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by Keroko

15000 in Akiba alone. Even if you only get a third of that customer base, you'd have that 1.5 million back within a week.

Maybe not within a week, but pretty fast anyway, and then it's profit town.

Considering a minor guild like Crescent Moon could get half a million gold in ten days, dedicated crafting guilds should be able to make much bigger profits, even if they sell their food for lower price due to competition.