US Supreme Court overturns Roe vs. Wade

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by The Green One

All banning abortion is going to do is drive it underground and just make it more dangerous for the one trying by forcing it to be done through more unsafe methods. Thinking banning abortion is going to stop it is foolishly naive. There will always be those who just don't care or are desperate enough for their own reasons.

Trying to convince someone banning abortion is right/wrong is honestly a futile effort. All this is going to do is spark an argument that will get this thread locked.

Not to mention making it a crime means that crime in these states are going to go up. In the short run by those getting caught. In the long run by the unwanted children since some of them join things like gangs just to have a place to fit in. Then there is more chances for domestic violence towards or from the unwanted child.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by The Green One

All banning abortion is going to do is drive it underground and just make it more dangerous for the one trying by forcing it to be done through more unsafe methods. Thinking banning abortion is going to stop it is foolishly naive. There will always be those who just don't care or are desperate enough for their own reasons.

Trying to convince someone banning abortion is right/wrong is honestly a futile effort. All this is going to do is spark an argument that will get this thread locked.

All laws without difference are meant to deter super majority of everyday people and bring numbers of "crimes" down. That few will take risk and break a law is already accounted. That said I do think it's better for everyone involved to go with "safe, legal and rare" then complete abolition as it provide option for those truly desparate.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by The Green One

All banning abortion is going to do is drive it underground

... and sideways. Those living near the south border are going to come to Mexico to get their abortions. The irony, in the late 20th century it was the other way around. Many are already coming here to get their dental. But hey, no need to believe me, take it from a gringo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kvhnkqBH1U

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by The Green One

All banning abortion is going to do is drive it underground and just make it more dangerous for the one trying by forcing it to be done through more unsafe methods. Thinking banning abortion is going to stop it is foolishly naive. There will always be those who just don't care or are desperate enough for their own reasons.

Trying to convince someone banning abortion is right/wrong is honestly a futile effort. All this is going to do is spark an argument that will get this thread locked.

Exactly. This sort of ban won't significantly lower abortion rates, it'll only increase the rate of expectant mothers dying or suffering severe injury in attempted abortions through sources and methods that simply aren't safe. That's why what should be done is to find ways to better and more thoroughly educate children on how to reduce the chances of pregnancy in the first place.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

... more thoroughly educate children on how to reduce the chances of pregnancy in the first place.

Not going to happen. The numbers are out there, a high percentage of GOP voters are not well educated and that is the kind of voter that most babies of single moms (that could no longer get an abortion) will grow up to be, so there is a long term incentive for the GOP to prevent the inclusion of said information into the government education system.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Exactly. This sort of ban won't significantly lower abortion rates, it'll only increase the rate of expectant mothers dying or suffering severe injury in attempted abortions through sources and methods that simply aren't safe. That's why what should be done is to find ways to better and more thoroughly educate children on how to reduce the chances of pregnancy in the first place.

If we talk about complete ban it would significantly lower abortion rates though, there is no doubt about that. It will indeed increase the expectant mothers dying or suffering severe injury as well you are right about that. That said number of women willing go that far isn't high to begin.

[Tuor]

I skimmed through all the comments, and no one seems to have mentioned one important fact:

Roe vs. Wade being overturned won't, in and of itself, make abortion illegal anywhere.

What it *will* do is return the question of abortion to the States, which is where it should be as there is nothing in the US Constitution that makes this a Federal matter.

If you want abortion to remain legal (in some form) in your state, then vote for it. If you don't, then vote against it.

I suspect that when the dust clears, abortion will be legal (in some form) in the vast majority of states.

[Tenzen12]

I think noone mentioned it because everyone knows that, one side don't wish for states having right to decide in first place.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Tuor

I suspect that when the dust clears, abortion will be legal (in some form) in the vast majority of states.

If I recall, 22 states already have trigger laws on the books to instantly ban it once Roe v Wade is gone. And only something like 9 states currently have it on the books that it isn't banned.

So it absolutely will not be legal in "the vast majority of states".

And that's not getting into the insane BS that some states like Missouri and Louisiana are trying to do (including banning various forms of birth control), or states like Texas that are arguing to implement the death penalty for ANY abortion (which would include miscarriages, ectopic abortion, etc).

[Tenzen12]

Wonder if that's really case. Well, if nothing else Texas, Missouri and Louisiana have not just have more women then men, but also they vote more, so they deciding it pretty much for themselves.

[Magin]

Originally Posted by Tuor

I suspect that when the dust clears, abortion will be legal (in some form) in the vast majority of states.

Hahahahahaha you're funny. And clearly have no idea about what the next step is in the process... actually, it's not even the next step; it's already happening.

As another post pointed out, 22 states already have trigger laws ready to go if it's overturned. That's still technically a minority, but it's definitely not a small number. Almost half of the US, in fact.

What this leads to... no, what's already happened is that many of these same states are literally putting bounties on any woman who crosses state lines to get an abortion. And I've seen more than enough example of what people will do when times get desperate; short version is that we're going to potentially have TONS of people snitching in order to collect any bounty money (assuming that the money would even be delivered in the first place, but we haven't tested that yet). And if you think it's ridiculous that one state will try to sue another state over laws... well, even the most liberal of states, California, is actually trying to get a law passed about if someone in another state even owns a gun, California can sue them.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Wonder if that's really case. Well, if nothing else Texas, Missouri and Louisiana have not just have more women then men, but also they vote more, so they deciding it pretty much for themselves.

You should meet an old friend by the name of Jerry Mander (gerrymandering). And especially after Texas ALMOST elected a Democrat, you can be damned sure they're going to gerrymander the hell out of their districts to keep that from ever happening again. Missouri and Louisiana also have heavy gerrymandering in place. Sure, there might be tons more voters, but politicians figured out how to make (and play) the game so that there's thousands of obstacles for voting.

[Tenzen12]

That sounds like dirty game indeed. It's just temporary solution though. If Republicans go against something majority people doesn't like (just women would do) no amount of redistricting would help.

[ramlaen]

The majority of US states do not have a # week restriction on abortion. None of these states are going to ban abortion if/when Roe vs. Wade is overturned.

Texas is not a purple state no matter how much people try to delude themselves.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Tuor

I skimmed through all the comments, and no one seems to have mentioned one important fact:

Roe vs. Wade being overturned won't, in and of itself, make abortion illegal anywhere.

What it *will* do is return the question of abortion to the States, which is where it should be as there is nothing in the US Constitution that makes this a Federal matter.

If you want abortion to remain legal (in some form) in your state, then vote for it. If you don't, then vote against it.

I suspect that when the dust clears, abortion will be legal (in some form) in the vast majority of states.

People also didn't mention that RVW was already overturned, at least partly, in 92. In RVW's ruling, no prohibitions could be placed in the first trimester, reasonable health regulations could be placed for the second, and absolute prohibitions could be placed in the third so long as exceptions for medical necessity were included. In addition, the right was declared "fundamental", meaning that any challenged abortion law had to be examined with strict scrutiny (highest limit, requiring absolute proof that this law is completely necessary for a "compelling state interest"). In 92, this was partly overturned. The trimester measures were replaced with viability (which, as I said before, has changed over time and probably will continue to change). Additionally, the right was no longer labeled "fundamental", meaning that a challenged law didn't have to prove such an absolute level of necessity in order to be upheld.

But let's face facts, this's such a hot topic that this ruling won't be the last. More challenges will likely be made, and if the SC's majority leaning shifts again chances are things will be moved again. It's just not so cut and dry that you can just set a boundary.

[Tenzen12]

I don't think that will be that easy. R vs W was problematic ruling to begin and it's very old case. If left gain adventage again (which will eventually happen), they may be able get same result, but I think they will need completely new precedent, instead just rolling it back.

[ganbaru]

Krystal Ball Exposes LIES at the Heart Of Roe v Wade Debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EaKoQ-37S4

[ramlaen]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

Krystal Ball Exposes LIES at the Heart Of Roe v Wade Debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EaKoQ-37S4

It would probably do them good to have a right winger describe a right wing position instead of having a left winger describe a left wing caricature of a right wing position.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by ramlaen

It would probably do them good to have a right winger describe a right wing position instead of having a left winger describe a left wing caricature of a right wing position.

See 90% of people’s arguments against those they oppose, whether it’s a matter of abortion, economics, politics or religion. Both sides either seek out the most ignorant and deranged of the other side, or make up things they think the other side “would say”.

[stray]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

... and sideways. Those living near the south border are going to come to Mexico to get their abortions. The irony, in the late 20th century it was the other way around. Many are already coming here to get their dental. But hey, no need to believe me, take it from a gringo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kvhnkqBH1U

People have been going to MX for dentistry for a long time; I used to live in San Diego and knew a ton of people who went there. US healthcare is atrocious though... I'm dual US/EU citizen so if my ass ever gets cancer or something I'm so gone.

Originally Posted by ramlaen

It would probably do them good to have a right winger describe a right wing position instead of having a left winger describe a left wing caricature of a right wing position.

I dunno, I've engaged with plenty of white wingers and once you get past debating when life starts they're usually pretty into the idea of "punishing" the mother with a baby or patting themselves on the back for forcing her to become a "productive member of society" in their mind. You can go further down the rabbit hole but it turns out its just a cesspit.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by ramlaen

It would probably do them good to have a right winger describe a right wing position instead of having a left winger describe a left wing caricature of a right wing position.

You realize that argument can easily be reversed right?