Macross Delta - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Subs are out.

[Benigmatica]

Well, seeing the Delta Squadron mourn over Messer's death is a bit depressing, but it seems that Hayate will step it up!

Meanwhile, I have a feeling that Al-Shahal will fall easily on the next episode unless something happened that prevented its conquest.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Interesting fact. The Brisingr globular cluster has 8 billion inhabitants. Gramia intends to enslave them all and genocide the Earthers. Most of those are likely Voldoran, Ragnan and Windermerean but he intends to kill all those who oppose him.

Gramia is pretty much the instigator of the independence war and this war. Why? He is driven by pride and a lust for misplaced vengeance.

He is doing an immediate attack as he doesn't trust Heinz wont be swayed by Walkure. He is aware of Earther's feats of pacifying the Zentradi , Protodevlin and Vajra.

Roid believes Windermereans are the true successors of the Protoculture and Heinz is to be the King of all Protoculture races. Arrogance on his part. Keith gives him a flaw in his reasoning as Winderereans were given a short life.

Roid please if there is to be a king of the Protoculture due to being a wind singer it should go to Basara. All races in the galaxy at the moment are Sub-Protoculture if the Protoculture found out all the shit your race is doing they'd send the Bird Human to wipe you out. Oh the only known possible Protoculture around is an idol named Mina Forte and she has mostly amnesia.

Given the gravity of the threat Earth couldn't treat this as a local problem anymore as 8 billion people are at risk. Earthers are still recovering their population numbers. The only ones with those numbers are Zentradi main fleets.

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Al Shahal has at least 40 counted ships in orbit. Windermere fleet don't have those numbers but make up for it with the Sigur Valens. An ancient Protoculture warship. Given the unknown quantity I'm not sure a Battle class or Macross Quarters are enough. Something like a Varauta Fleet Flagship Carrier with 8 Macros cannons and super sized Reaction warheads.

Oh the Aerail Knights had to retreat last episode as not only did Messer damage their units he also wrecked Keith's Sv-262Hs Energy Conversion Armor.

[magnuskn]

Well, then. I think Hayate is reacting a bit pridefully (probably because he was very emotional at that moment). If he thinks he can immediately replace Messer in a crisis like the one they are facing now, he'd have to get a basically impossible jump in skill. Delta should get a new pilot, if only to get even numbers with the Knights. Or am I counting wrong here and the Knights always had six members?

On the Windbag front, I see their chances of having a big turnaround and joining the good guys getting ever smaller. At this point, their plan is revealed and it is mindraping 8 billion people (which includes the civilians, babies and all). Wow, what good guys they are turning out to be. Can't wait to see what the apologists will come up with this week to defend the indefensible. Probably another round of "Nyuck nyuck, I look forward to people's reaction when the Windermerans join the good guys" premature gloating.

[MartianMage]

I didn't really watch Macross 7 but I know the song the kids sang is one of Basara's, right?

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

On the Windbag front, I see their chances of having a big turnaround and joining the good guys getting ever smaller. At this point, their plan is revealed and it is mindraping 8 billion people (which includes the civilians, babies and all). Wow, what good guys they are turning out to be. Can't wait to see what the apologists will come up with this week to defend the indefensible. Probably another round of "Nyuck nyuck, I look forward to people's reaction when the Windermerans join the good guys" premature gloating.

Was there really a need for this tone? Also, we're on episode 11 in a two-cour series. Just a note.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Oh the Aerail Knights had to retreat last episode as not only did Messer damage their units he also wrecked Keith's Sv-262Hs Energy Conversion Armor.

As I was saying all along.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, then. I think Hayate is reacting a bit pridefully (probably because he was very emotional at that moment). If he thinks he can immediately replace Messer in a crisis like the one they are facing now, he'd have to get a basically impossible jump in skill. Delta should get a new pilot, if only to get even numbers with the Knights. Or am I counting wrong here and the Knights always had six members?

What Hayate said was totally ridiculous. The Knights always had 6 pilots, Delta was outnumbered in all encounters and always saved by Roid calling off the attacks in earlier episode with Messer around to help.

It just show he is clueless about what is happening in the sky in all their encounters.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Oh the Aerail Knights had to retreat last episode as not only did Messer damage their units he also wrecked Keith's Sv-262Hs Energy Conversion Armor.

Keith's unit being damaged we already know, but aren't the other 4 knights' units still operate well at the time?

Also, the way the old king consider Walkure to be such a big deal of a threat making it such a waste that the knights didn't take some quick shots at them right after Messer's death. Like arad himself mentioned, without Messer, their force's effectiveness got reduced by 37% (that's a big number). Add to that, two Walkure got KO-ed and three Chaos pilots available are below Messer in terms of skill which one of them (Hayate) being a reckless noob pilot without Frei's singing. Such a waste of chance.

Originally Posted by MartianMage

I didn't really watch Macross 7 but I know the song the kids sang is one of Basara's, right?

Yes. Basara's song is still great to hear even if the ones who sing it are just children with a guitar . Man, that made me miss his performance. Why do you have to torture me like this, Delta

Also, I'd like to join the "clueless Hayate" bandwagon. Here's hoping Arad didn't listen to him coz unless someone in Chaos got a major powerup in fighting skill, things aren't gonna go well for Chaos the next time the knights come for them (and come for them they shall).

[karice67]

Finally had a chance to look at the sub, and here's a line I'd have translated differently:

@19:18

『そんなもん…なってみないとわからねーだろ…なんでも分かった顔して…一人で勝手に決めつけてんじゃねぇ よ！』:

And we were supposed to figure that out? Don't just look all smart as if you knew everything!

=> How could you know that? Acting as if you knew everything...how dare you decide that kind of thing all on your own!

[Tempester]

Excellent episode, one of my favorites in Delta so far and that means a lot considering how consistently amazing it has been throughout. Character deaths in Macross have always been handled with an appropriate level of gravitas and finality and this was no exception. The use of the wonderful M7 song Remember 16 near the end of the episode was the cherry on top of the cake.

[yanzzy5]

Hayate: I will fly his share too.

Bwahahhahaha!!
As if!! we still have 15 episodes to go, your gonna get a replacement whether you like it or not.

Also we finally met the real enemy of the show.... fascism.

[Triple_R]

I get what Episode 11 was aiming for, and some of it was well-executed. The episode did have its moments. But the criticisms voiced here by some other viewers are very valid. I don't like saying it, but I consider this one of the two or three weakest Delta episodes so far.

It really is hard to understand why Bogue, of all people, wouldn't try to take out Walkure given the glorious opportunity presented by Messer falling in battle. It probably would have been better if there was a quick scene or quick flashback, or heck even just a quick explanation, of NUN reinforcements arriving to force Windermere into a believable retreat.

And I get what they were aiming for with Hayate saying he'd personally make up for Messer's loss, but yeah, it truly is ridiculous. The show may well force it to work by Hayate getting just that good that quickly, but that in and of itself would be ridiculous. I get that the show wants the characters to feel very emotional and sentimental over Messer's loss, but they overdid it with Hayate's statement here.

Finally... Yeah, Windermere truly is crossing the moral event horizon. Kawamori and Nemoto really are going too far with Windermere if the plan is for Roid and the Aerial Knights to eventually be redeemed and teamed up with Delta Squadron against the supposed real enemy. Mentally enslaving 8 billion people... That's freaking Dr. Doom on his worst day.

At this point, I want Windermere stopped, by any means necessary.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

At this point, I want Windermere stopped, by any means necessary.

Been saying that since the beginning, should have joined my bandwagon.

And I don't want them just stopped, I want them curbstomped.

If I am supposed to feel sympathy for them Winds, its a bit too late for that.

- Tak

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Finally... Yeah, Windermere truly is crossing the moral event horizon. Kawamori and Nemoto really are going too far with Windermere if the plan is for Roid and the Aerial Knights to eventually be redeemed and teamed up with Delta Squadron against the supposed real enemy. Mentally enslaving 8 billion people... That's freaking Dr. Doom on his worst day.

At this point, I want Windermere stopped, by any means necessary.

Technically we don't know if that is there true goal, it's just an assumption on Chaos' part....though I can't exactly blame them for such an assumption since it is very likely the Windermerians (sp?) are aiming for it.... Unfortunately the answers are still out of reach

[dmaxzero]

Hayate. You have plot armor, but still I want to see you fail with that statement.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Technically we don't know if that is there true goal, it's just an assumption on Chaos' part....though I can't exactly blame them for such an assumption since it is very likely the Windermerians (sp?) are aiming for it.... Unfortunately the answers are still out of reach

Keith announced his intentions clear this episode. He just wants to see his planet fine again. There's no agenda of conquest in his speech. He doesn't care about any of that aside of means for his ends, he feels pressured by the lack of time. He even appears disdainful of protoculture in general. He's pragmatic. What worries more is Roid's expression about time won't be mattering soon. What did he mean with that? What does he know Keith ignores?

I'm not even sure why are so many horrified about "mind control" when protodeviln did the same already and they also possessed humans... and how that turned out? Mind control or singing to coerce people is a pretty common weapon in Macross. Didn't Earthlings used Minmay against Zentraedi as a musical weapon once? I'm 100% sure they would have also resorted to Var if they had it to win that battle. I'm not saying it's "good", but it's simply a means to an end and not the first time it was used in Macross. So this shock and horror is extremely puzzling.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Thess

Keith announced his intentions clear this episode. He just wants to see his planet fine again. There's no agenda of conquest in his speech. He doesn't care about any of that aside of means for his ends, he feels pressured by the lack of time. He even appears disdainful of protoculture in general. He's pragmatic. What worries more is Roid's expression about time won't be mattering soon. What did he mean with that? What does he know Keith ignores?

I'm not even sure why are so many horrified about "mind control" when protodeviln did the same already and they also possessed humans... and how that turned out? Mind control or singing to coerce people is a pretty common weapon in Macross. Didn't Earthlings used Minmay against Zentraedi as a musical weapon once? I'm 100% sure they would have also resorted to Var if they had it to win that battle. I'm not saying it's "good", but it's simply a means to an end and not the first time it was used in Macross. So this shock and horror is extremely puzzling.

Thess again you are comparing shows wrong just to support your position the Kingdom of Wind/Aerial Knights will be good guys.

With the Protodevlin they are Eldritch Abominations from another dimension truly alien that did what they did to survive after being brought into the third dimension.They saw rampant over feeding will kill the galaxy and themselves so they sought the most expedient alternate means to do so. Basara just showed them a permanent solution to their problem and they left. It's pretty much lets leave each other alone is for the best.

Music isn't a weapon per se. In SDF Macross it emphasizes on Culture Shock. This involves civilian life, music, since most Zentradi are guys attraction to the opposite gender which applies to their female counterparts as they have been indoctrinated as soldiers and segregated. It isn't mind control but psychological warfare. They didn't realize Culture's effect on Zentrad until they got defectors to their side.

Lets also go by the numbers. Several hundred thousand Varauta colonists enslaved along with whatever survivors of Macross 5 as the Varauta Army.

Gramia is planing on enslaving 8 billion people and has admitted to be on the path of genocide of Earthers and those who ally with them. If you think this is moral by your standards then you better ask yourself what is your standards of right and wrong.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm not even sure why are so many horrified about "mind control" when protodeviln did the same already and they also possessed humans... and how that turned out?

Millions dead, planets destroyed. At the end peace was made, and that was a very generous outcome for humanity because there was absolutely nothing you can do to Protodevlins at that point. Basara actually made them more powerful by handing them the capacity to generate AS.

Yeah, mind control wasn't pretty. If not downright horrifying.

Originally Posted by Thess

Mind control or singing to coerce people is a pretty common weapon in Macross. Didn't Earthlings used Minmay against Zentraedi as a musical weapon once?

Minmay's music served more as a tool for psychological warfare with focus on distraction than coercion, with mixed success. Thats not mind control.

Of the 7,500,000,000 Zentradi personnel involved in the siege of Earth, only 8,000,000 remained with humanity. The rest fled and regrouped, becoming a thorn to the NUN since.

- Tak

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Thess again you are comparing shows wrong just to support your position the Kingdom of Wind/Aerial Knights will be good guys.

No, I'm sure I'm comparing them right. Windermerians are aliens. You can't shove your human standards and morals on them without coming across as condescending when they think Earthlings' ideas are worth less than the dirt under their foot. Their short lives obviously have some psychological impact about how they perceive living in general and how they act. That's inherently cultural on them.

Protodevlin aren't more "true aliens" than Windermerians. Windermerians are more humanized, but they are still freaking aliens with a different moral code and system.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Music isn't a weapon per se. In SDF Macross it emphasizes on Culture Shock.

It was a psychological weapon that relied on cultural shock to work and create confusion in the enemy to make more effective your attack. Have also some join you.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Lets also go by the numbers. Several hundred thousand Varauta colonists enslaved along with whatever survivors of Macross 5 as the Varauta Army.

You forget what they did before they were sealed and how their actions still affected the galaxy, right with the Supervision's Army.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Gramia is planing on enslaving 8 billion people and has admitted to be on the path of genocide of Earthers and those who ally with them. If you think this isn't moral by your standards then you better ask yourself what is your standards of right and wrong.

Here's your problem to assume your morals are the ones that an alien species should take up. Morals don't exist inherently, they are construction by historical circumstances and contractual relationships of each society. Your human morals don't apply to Windermerians. You can only appeal to individual ethics, but to speak of general and universal morals to some alien society isn't only hilarious, IMO, but also is stuck in the XVII century with Kant, which has already been criticized and regarded as outdated. Freyja behaves in a different way because her feelings are appealed, not a sense of "morality." Windermerians simply don't regard Earthlings as people as they are, like humans wouldn't have regarded Zentraedi when they started fighting them. And I fully believe that they would have relied on var had they possessed it and were outnumbered to achieve their goals. This doesn't make them "evil", though.

Do I find their actions 'wrong'? Well sure, but I don't necessary think it's evil.

I believe Macross is built and inspired partly by Rorty's sense of morality and benevolence and how those are inventions. In the sense that only when two groups recognize and acknowledge each other as people, the empathy begins. Music is a bridge to that purpose. Windermerians aren't acknowledging humans as people as them just like the Vajra didn't. It's the same thing, IMO. Hits closer home because they are more humanized, but still has the same set up, IMO. It's all about your feelings rather than some rational sense of morality. That's why the game changer is a song; and what are the main obstacles, aside of not sharing the same lexical is that a group doesn't possess security to allow themselves that sense of sympathy for others. Windermerians like the Aerial Knights are scared and pressured, as long as they feel that way, they'll be unable to sympathize. Heinz will be the bridge because of his connection to Freyja and Mikumo, IMO. But again, change is about a sentimental education rather than some preaching. Macross has always enabled feelings as more important than a rational speech of what's wrong and right like Gundam which shows is more postmodernism.

[LoweGear]

You know, I thought rain was supposed to be something you only experienced outside the house, strange huh, this indoor rain ;-;

Anyways, this episode really nails the feeling of mourning, and showing it so naturally too: it never comes across as cheesy or dramatic, and even the moments when the crew laugh and joke around still carries the atmosphere of trying their best to be happy even in mourning.

As for the Windermerians.... oh look, it's a nice, big ancient battleship ripe for a well-placed and deserved MACROSS CANNON TO THE FACE