Monogatari Series Second Season - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll (Hitagi End III)

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

I think it is clarified somewhere that

Spoiler for spoil for the crab:

Kaiki thinks the crab god would be a good outlet for Hitagi for the time beings, before she could be able to face herself and accept all the sadness, despair and memories of her mother.

Well, I don't really think Kaiki is 100% good either. He's a man with his own policy, just like Kagenui and Meme. (Meme is not entirely good too, most of the mess caused in Kizu is the result of his troublesome meddling).

The main reason I like Kaiki is that he is one with a good narration and finally after so many arcs seeing Araragi molesting young girl, we got a somewhat competent protagonist who knows what he is doing.

That is what I am stating, he is interesting. However, I do not like when everyone seemly forgets his ill deeds because of it. I am just bringing down some people back to reality with this guy.

[Raymondjram]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

that OP. I know its been said again and again but I just can't get that out of my mind while watching the episode. It reminds me of Daimos with Richard and Erica thing. Really classic and awesome OP.

Then the episode itself is awesome. Dine with Yotsugi is awesome and also the visit again with Nadeko extreme sugar scene inducing diabetes or heart attack.

Then that cliffhanger >_> I wonder what's hidden there. Nadeko is crazy insane. Is she insane enough to do the yandere stuff like tons of photos of Araragi?

Kaiki finds something in Nadeko's closet that is related to the chat that she and Koyomi had while playing cards in her bedroom in that episode of "Karen Bee" in Nisemonogatari.

Spoiler for What is in Nadeko's closet:

She asked Koyomi if he reads manga and what type. I believe she is hiding lots of manga in there, and her parents never knew that.

We will see if I am correct next week.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

That is what I am stating, he is interesting. However, I do not like when everyone seemly forgets his ill deeds because of it. I am just bringing down some people back to reality with this guy.

Much as I like Kaiki, I do agree that he's hard to judge. He stayed strictly in the gray. The best I could say is the man leading a life according to his own policy. Well, it is much charming this way.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

Vallen Chaos Valiant..............did you read my post clearly?

Tsuhiki's oddity was not the Phoenix. I wasn't calling the Phoenix the Dying Bird, the actual name of Tsuhiki's oddity is a cuckoo called the "Dying Bird". She hunted the wrong oddity. I am not sure how you define Yozuru's justice ideology, but it is just as flawed or even a more worst flawed ideology than Karen's justice ideology. Yozuru stated her reason for hunting oddities, its not because they were dangerous (which most are), but because they shouldn't exists in the human world. She feels that all oddities should not exist in the human world and immortal oddities like the Phoenix is the worst because it will continue to exists after dying. The Phoenix and the Dying Bird are very rare passive oddities that only provides benefits and no shape in form harms the human world, in a sense, they are only bad because it benefits one person not the whole. The Phoenix and Dying Birds are similar, yet are only different in one aspect. The Phoenix possess the being and merge with the being retaining the person's personality, while the Dying Bird is heredity, it reincarnate in a womb of a child and possess the child while not merging it is more passive than the Phoenix. The Child is not harm in any way, it provides non stop healing, it does not damage the human world physically but rather mentally because it shouldn't happen because it is not normal.

I don't get what you are stating with Meme killing a poor crab. The crab almost killed Hitagi and took away her weight. Have you been analyzing this series carefully? The ceremony that was done for Hitagi was to peacefully summoned the crab and persuade the crab to give Hitagi's memories and weight back. Meme noted that he hated crabs and killing it may solved some symptoms but not all of it, it is not even a guarantee so killing it would not fully help Hitagi. Meme decided to use force to persuade the crab which he admitted that it is the most effective way to deal with oddities, not killing them. When the crab however acted unpredictably and attacked Hitagi, it proved Meme's statements. Most oddities are dangerous and cause damage towards the human world. We seen that first hand with almost all oddities aside from Tsuhiki's Dying Bird and what is vaguely described of the Phoenix.

Meme's story about oddities are already describe clearly in the anime and over more details in the Light Novel. Meme does not actively just randomly help people, he only helps people who makes the most effort in wanting to get helped, while he does want compensation, he will always help. Among him and his 3 members, he is describe as the more normal person. Yozuru deals with oddities for free, but that is due because her reasons is that all oddities, dangerous or not, should not exist it is a all out kill spree. Gaen, who uses friendship and favors to deal with oddities, but her favors that she asked in return could be very dangerous. Then there is Kaiki who deals with oddities to get money whatever it is selling it to people or taking advantage of people who are victims.



It is stated in the light Novel that Kaiki took the money and left, he did not steal the money, he took it and did nothing in return which is worst. So you are right with that post when he did not steal, rather he did something worst than that. Giving word that he will fix a problem, only to up and leave with the money without doing so.

Okay where did it say that the Phoenix and the Dying bird is two different kaiis? I'm pretty sure that there is only one Phoenix just like how there is only one Kissshot.

I'm not saying that Kaiki is entirely good but he does what is right in his own way, while also earning some money. What he did for hitagi is right and wrong. She needed to get away from her mother which is what he did but what hitagi really wanted was not her weight but rather her emotions for her mother back.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by omimon

Okay where did it say that the Phoenix and the Dying bird is two different kaiis? I'm pretty sure that there is only one Phoenix just like how there is only one Kissshot.

"Sigh"
Please go back and watch Nisemonogatari episode 11: Tsukihi Phoenix, Part 4 then respond back. I would literally place the entire episode for you to watch here literally in the spoiler tag (because I can, the entire 25 minutes of it and the source is youtube), but doing so would violate the forum rules or not but I think it does however I will not risk it. Have to ask the moderators that later on to clarify that. Pretty much, watch the first 2:15 second of the episode. Shinobu clearly stated that Tsuhiki's oddity is not a Phoenix, but one similar, the Dying Bird with lot of common traits to the Phoenix.

Originally Posted by omimon

I'm not saying that Kaiki is entirely good but he does what is right in his own way, while also earning some money. What he did for hitagi is right and wrong. She needed to get away from her mother which is what he did but what hitagi really wanted was not her weight but rather her emotions for her mother back.

That is all I needed to hear, he is not the white (good) nor black (evil). He is gray, the first couple of posts regarded him as a wholesome good character. I probably made some enemies out of some people with my posts so far in this thread, but I do so only to bring people down to reality when regarding him. Not to post information to make him hated by people, but to make people know where he truly lies which is gray, but on the more darker shade. He isn't entirely bad, he has some good qualities, however he is far from the white spectrum.

[ndqanh_vn]

Well, I think the charm in Kaiki (and Meme) characters is that they are people who follow their own agenda. You cannot easily classify them. It is a strange sense of freedom.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Well, I think the charm in Kaiki (and Meme) characters is that they are people who follow their own agenda. You cannot easily classify them. It is a strange sense of freedom.

Yes there is attraction to it, they live the way they want. It is literally freedom, you choose your way of life and nobody influences you to do so other than yourself so I understand that attraction.

[ndqanh_vn]

It's hard to live that kind of life. Not many people could live outside society standard or other people's judgement. Not many people could be able to endure the loneliness and other unpleasant situation caused by it. Therefore I guess many people would find it charming.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

That is all I needed to hear, he is not the white (good) nor black (evil). He is gray, the first couple of posts regarded him as a wholesome good character. I probably made some enemies out of some people with my posts so far in this thread, but I do so only to bring people down to reality when regarding him. Not to post information to make him hated by people, but to make people know where he truly lies which is gray, but on the more darker shade. He isn't entirely bad, he has some good qualities, however he is far from the white spectrum.

I seriously doubt that. If yo want to act all superior because you think you know the story better than the rest of us, that's your own delusion. Don't think you "made enemies" by insisting that you somehow trying to "educate" the rest of us. Your own arrogance doesn't make you a martyr.

You have no right to bring anyone down to whatever level you are on. You are not that important.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I seriously doubt that. If yo want to act all superior because you think you know the story better than the rest of us, that's your own delusion. Don't think you "made enemies" by insisting that you somehow trying to "educate" the rest of us. Your own arrogance doesn't make you a martyr.

You have no right to bring anyone down to whatever level you are on. You are not that important.

I don't feel like I came out conceited, I just took the effort to valid my points. Normally anyone would do the same. If I were arrogant, I would have posted my responses and never responded to the posts of others but I did. as well I explained myself, I did not skirt around questions and gave vague answers of others and answered them straight on whether it was a popular response or not. This is a discussion, not a mindless chat room about how cool a character is. You analyses everything about a story, not just one aspect of a character. You take a character's history, setting, lore, and the rest to compile a response in a discussion. If one sees someone makes an error of a response, one would assist to clarify the details.

I made the statement that I made enemies base on the responses I gotten. I saw a negative feel to it that was increasingly getting negative, I am not the only one to perceive that I believe. If you feel any better, than I will refrain from responding and positing here if you wish. Just state so and I will allow you peace. I do not get kicks from making people angry, I enjoy anime, light novels, and manga and wish to have a nice wonderful discussions about them and anything related. If I have been overzealous and made you angry, please say so and I will stop.

[ndqanh_vn]

Calm down, the guy is probably just trying to say that many people seems to think that Kaiki is entirely good and put him in the "good guy" side, which he isn't according to his interpretation.

I like Kaiki, hell, my hope is that after this arc I could make a Kaiki fanclub, but I think to say that he's entirely "white" does take a lot from his character.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

It's hard to live that kind of life. Not many people could live outside society standard or other people's judgement. Not many people could be able to endure the loneliness and other unpleasant situation caused by it. Therefore I guess many people would find it charming.

You would kind of be describing a sociopath though. If you don't really care about anything but what you personally care about, there isn't much loneliness to it. See how Kaiki is mistaken in thinking that Nadeko is better off as a goddess is him asserting his view. The real stinging point, is that whatever policy a person has, they are still human with failings at the end.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

You would kind of be describing a sociopath though. If you don't really care about anything but what you personally care about, there isn't much loneliness to it. See how Kaiki is mistaken in thinking that Nadeko is better off as a goddess is him asserting his view. The real stinging point, is that whatever policy a person has, they are still human with failings at the end.

The strange thing is, sociopath, psychopath and the like tends to be depicted as absolutely attractive and charming people on screen or in other form of media. It really tells a lot about a normal people's inner desire to be free in my opinion. We all know that Johann Liebert is a monster and he did not give a shit about anybody not named Tenma or Lila, for example, but we do love watching him on screen that way.

It is just observation about the media, I do not state anything about real life though.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

The strange thing is, sociopath, psychopath and the like tends to be depicted as absolutely attractive and charming people on screen or in other form of media.

That's because it is correct. Superficial charm is a trait of socio/psychopaths. You can't be an emotional manipulator if you are an oaf.

[Altima of the Gates]

Charisma would be the key thing here, rather than making an argument of whether people are attracted to individuals with out of the norm lifestyles. Force of personality is the key, whether you be a devil or an angel, or something in between.

[ndqanh_vn]

And I don't think Kaiki and his friends are sociopath. They just followed their agenda: they care, but in some unusual way. Kaiki did care about Hitagi, it is quite obvious now, but his way is not obvious to others, and the man also likes to lie even to himself. (A big tsundere here)

I think the anime left a detail in the novel that I like very much in the second encouter of Kaiki and Hitagi. I don't remember exactly, but when he bought drinks for himself, he decided not to buy a hot beverage in case Hitagi said something stupid and he would throw the drink at her again.

That small details really shines.

[JPZ]

Originally Posted by omimon

Actually I was getting more of a Kimagure Orange Road feel.

Being that is one of my favorite anime of all time i have to agree

whatever else happened in the episode it had a 10 from me for just that minute and a half.

[Hiroi Sekai]

I had forgotten what an opening was after so long. But damn, what a hell of a way to come back.

Kinda hoping they release a regular version to go alongside the quirky version for the full song. The one we sampled is certainly charming, but I'd love to hear a clean version per usual, much like how Kami Nomi zo Shiru Sekai did with Keima.

[ndqanh_vn]

eh, I just want to check, how many episode would Koi has?

[omimon]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

eh, I just want to check, how many episode would Koi has?

6 if the bluerays r any indication.