It seems that a lot of girls read more shounen than shoujo

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by Shinji01

I feel many Shoujo manga are too girly. its all about having crushes, whos dating who etc.
Whereas Shonen manga has more historical references, adventure, growth of character, diversity etc.

Its like Shoujo manga is a soap opera (think the O.C. Seriouslly, everyone is dating everyone and at every oppotunity they run off and fight and then they have a car crush. really???) whereas shonen manga is a real drama series (i dunno... like LOST & Heroes?)

Of course there are anomalies and I am talking in a veeerrrry generalized manner.
I love Friends and hate 24.

But I think you get the idea

And yes, CLAMP's X is Shoujo with a strong male protagonist but again, everyone seems to fall in love with everyone and declare their love when they are about to die. Too melodramatic for my liking.

I am not a big fan of One Piece, but at least the characters here die with passion and can deliver cheesy moral speeches. LOL

As for me, the shoujo isn't only about romance, but also magical girl, action fantasy in a shonen-like manner (X) and reverse harem (one girl + ton of boys).

As for shounen, it isn't just about action, adventure and drama, but some titles has comedy, regular harem (one boy + ton of girls), serious romance stories in a shoujo-like manner (Boys Be..., Kimikiss Pure Rouge), ridiculous school life titles full of zaniness (School Rumble), sports, science-fiction, mecha and slice-of-life (Bakuman.).

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Shinji01

I feel many Shoujo manga are too girly. its all about having crushes, whos dating who etc.

Yeah....actually, no, it's not. There are many subgenres for it, just as much as shounen. There's shoujo slice-of-life, shoujo action, shoujo fantasy, shoujo schoollife, shoujo sports....etc.

Whereas Shonen manga has more historical references, adventure, growth of character, diversity etc.

Shoujo has those just as much if not more.

Originally Posted by Amorok

I don't mean to sound snarky here at all, but that's very much your opinion. *I* personally think Kitchen Princess is a perfect example of the fluffy shoujo drivel I've been talking about.

It's not just *my* opinion. Tons of people who hate stereotypical fluff love it. What's so "fluffy" or "drivel" about it? It doesn't have that sappy soap opera drama like "omg she's dating the boy I like!!"
It has real drama like

Spoiler:

Oh, look, one of the main characters just died. This is going to f*ck EVERYONE up!!

In addition to that it's a useful manga: it can actually teach the reader how to cook!!
My word, a manga that enables children to LEARN SOMETHING?
What is this world coming to!? Put that crap down!

........

KP's ending message to girls is : "Work hard to polish the talents you have been blessed with so you can share them with others; for happiness comes from making others happy"

That's a good, wholesome message. I fail to see why that's "shallow". Don't even try to compare a nice, feel-good manga like Kitchen Princess to the true "fluffy shoujo drivel" that's all about how important it is to get a boyfriend, no matter how abusive he may be.
Yes, KP has a fairytale-ish romance element woven into the main story. Does that make it crap? Absolutely not.

Couldn't possibly be because shoujo, in general, DOES tend to suck more than shounen?

No, it's not possible. I think there are two main reasons why people bash shoujo:

The first reason is the same as the reason networks are warying of marketing little girls programming: it's assumed to have a niche audience because boys cannot relate to it. It's an ancient perspective that's been around for probably at least two generations (Nostalgia Chick points out that it began to get a lot of notice in the 90s):
"If a girl likes boy stuff, she's cool."
"If a boy likes girl stuff, he's gay".
Studies have proven in the past that everyone can get on board with boys' or "stuff aimed at both sexes. If it's just for girls.....well, the attitude is "only girls should like it". Because of this whole concept, boys either feel too alienated by it, discouraged to try to like it, or maybe they secretly like it but will never admit to it.

The second reason is with a few exceptions, anime adaptations of shoujo manga get really cheap treatment. Characters and plots get dumbed down, any violence is removed for "the kiddies" etc. And a lot of the time, the story is merely left unfinished because the manga is still going. Off the top of my head, the only shoujo series over twelve episodes that fully treats its audience with respect and sopshication, is the cult classic Princess Tutu. And it started as an anime only (the later manga reincarnation is atrocious!!) The show is a masterpiece in both art and story-telling and I encourage everyone who hasn't seen it yet to at least check it out.

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Yeah....actually, no, it's not. There are many subgenres for it, just as much as shounen. There's shoujo slice-of-life, shoujo action, shoujo fantasy, shoujo schoollife, shoujo sports....etc.

But it always comes back to the romance in the end, no matter what subplot it has, whether it be school life, cooking, fighting, or even survival on a deserted island . Not that that's always a bad or good thing. It's just like how shounen's always come down to who's better/stronger no matter the subplot, even if it is something unique (too bad those get axed very quickly though...ST&RS is a current example). But once again, it not always good or bad.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

But it always comes back to the romance in the end, no matter what subplot it has, whether it be school life, cooking, fighting, or even survival on a deserted island :eyespin

A word of advice to you:
Never ever EVER use the word "always" when you talk about something that includes thousands upon thousands of varied examples.

There are shoujo series that don't have any romance for the main character, believe it or not.
Aishiteruze Baby is one such series. It focuses on two cousins who share a big brother and little sister relationship.
And no, they DON'T fall for each other at the end because she's like, five.

There is another manga called Million Girl that focuses on a teen trying to get out of debt after her mother dies by playing risky games for money. I'm not sure if she ever gets a canon love interest (though that doesn't stop the shippers lol) It's a very good manga.

There is SuperGALS! Ran, the heroine does not get a boyfriend.
There is Kaleido Star where a boy crushes on the heroine but she never figures it out and nothing comes of it.
There is a comedy-horror manga, The Thirteenth is Friday? It had no romance whatsoever-just kids getting involved with ghost stories.

Well, there are five titles off the top of my head right there that prove your statement false. I can go on, if you want.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

The second reason is with a few exceptions, anime adaptations of shoujo manga get really cheap treatment. Characters and plots get dumbed down, any violence is removed for "the kiddies" etc. And a lot of the time, the story is merely left unfinished because the manga is still going.

I just thought I'd point this out, but anime adaptations of manga in general are called out on adaptation decay.

Regardless though the gender-role shoehorning in both shonen and shojo romance gets on my nerves. I look to anime and manga for an alternate reality, not a reminder.

But I'm wondering. Let's suppose we didn't know what classification any given title is supposed to be under. How do you determine its demographic? Content? Artstyle? What if we get a shonen harem romance with the shojo artstyle, or a shojo reverse harem drama with a shonen look? What if the girl in a shojo is portrayed voluptuously or the MC is a guy? What if the lead guy in a shonen looks more like someone from a shojo, or the lead is a girl? What if the girls in shonen aren't throwing themselves onto the MC? What if the guys in shojo are throwing themselves onto the MC?

What's a reliable way to determine who is the target audience when no labels are attached and, hypothetically, the situations are mixed as I described above?

[Shinji01]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

A word of advice to you:
Never ever EVER use the word "always" when you talk about something that includes thousands upon thousands of varied examples.

I sincerely admire your knowledge in the shoujo genre, and I think the examples you gave are spot on.

And, I do agree that "If a girl likes boy stuff, she's cool."
"If a boy likes girl stuff, he's gay" plays a huge role in this debate.

However, since we are talking about the larger genre "Shoujo" and "Shonen" I think we need to talk in a generalized manner.

It's like saying "All dogs have tails and they wag it when they are happy" but then someone says "well, my bull dog doesn't have a tail".

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

But I'm wondering. Let's suppose we didn't know what classification any given title is supposed to be under. How do you determine its demographic? Content? Artstyle? What if we get a shonen harem romance with the shojo artstyle, or a shojo reverse harem drama with a shonen look? What if the girl in a shojo is portrayed voluptuously or the MC is a guy? What if the lead guy in a shonen looks more like someone from a shojo, or the lead is a girl? What if the girls in shonen aren't throwing themselves onto the MC? What if the guys in shojo are throwing themselves onto the MC?

What's a reliable way to determine who is the target audience when no labels are attached and, hypothetically, the situations are mixed as I described above?

I think that is an interesting idea, and wonder if there are any examples of this anywhere.

I do think that some artists styles are becoming harder to categorize as just Shoujo or Shonen, and this may eventually just happen if they decide to change the story line a little bit.

However, whether such a storyline will be accepted by the publishers is another story. I think in the end, even if the artist wants to be different, if the publishers are not along for the ride, then it is all in vain.

It is a business after all, and in most businesses, people prefer to stick to what they know will sell.

I

[Kismet-chan]

A target audience does not determine down to a TEE who will and won't like the product. It's just shooting for a general range of people who are more likely to be interested in it than others with different tastes. So when people who do NOT fit into a particular target audience like a product aimed at said demographic, is that abnormal? No.

Asking why girls like shounen is like asking why an Indian person eats French cuisine, or why the coach of a football team watches baseball: it's all a matter of personal preference. This is obvious.

Shorter version: People like what they like, and that is not always what others say they should/would like.

[mecharobot]

Originally Posted by Shinji01

I sincerely admire your knowledge in the shoujo genre, and I think the examples you gave are spot on.

Actually a thing such as a shoujo genre doesn't exist. Neither does shounen or seinen. They only mean whatever characteristics we give them. Like a seinen anime to one may mean a show like Monster, but to other it might mean something like Nanoha.

At least in the anime scheme, shoujo shows still have a decent variety. I can remember watching shoujo anime about scifi, cooking, circus, battles, music, robots, magic girls, historic and of course the age old school romances. I can't see anything strange with crossover appeal, whether to girls or boys. Besides, if you ask me, there is a hell of a lot of girly shows marketed for anything but girls. I'm thinking of stuff like Azumanga and that would only be the tip of the iceberg.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto

But I'm wondering. Let's suppose we didn't know what classification any given title is supposed to be under. How do you determine its demographic? Content? Artstyle? What if we get a shonen harem romance with the shojo artstyle, or a shojo reverse harem drama with a shonen look? What if the girl in a shojo is portrayed voluptuously or the MC is a guy? What if the lead guy in a shonen looks more like someone from a shojo, or the lead is a girl? What if the girls in shonen aren't throwing themselves onto the MC? What if the guys in shojo are throwing themselves onto the MC?

I've often thought about these questions in the past and find them incredibly interesting. I would love to draw a manga like this. One of my ideas was to make a magical girlfriend series, yet target it to shoujo-lovers.

Actually if you think about it, there are quite a lot of harem romances (especially those based on dating sims.) that really aren't far from the shoujo artstyle at all. Take Air, for example: Misuzu is basically a shoujo heroine. All you have to do is look at her!! She's cute, she's klutzy, she wears a dress, she daydreams, she has a big white bow and Rapunzel hair that flows in the wind! And Yukito is more bishounen than the average bishounen from a shoujo anime too! He broods, he has a short temper, he's caring, he's got really nice hair and eyes of gold.

......so.......if you remove the "label" from these shows, what sets them apart? Well, I'd like to say "fanservice" but that's not true because there are many moe shows without fanservice at all. I'd like to say "because it's from the girl's point of view" but that's not it either; many shounen series have girls as the main character and some shoujo have boys as the main character.
.........and we already covered "style". Seinen or shoujo? Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, visually.

Is it content?

Well.....yes but...

No.

The only thing that could be a concrete label is the harem aspect. I don't think a shoujo series could have a plot with one boy and tons of girls throwing themselves at him, the same way a shounen/seinen series wouldn't have one girl with tons of boys going gaga over her.

But if you set aside just the harem series, I don't think there's anything else that can be ruled out for either demographic. I'm trying to think. I really am!!

what sets them apart?.............what the hell defines them.....what makes them different from each other aside from the magazines they run in!?
DAMN.....IT......
...........you broke my brain.

However, whether such a storyline will be accepted by the publishers is another story. I think in the end, even if the artist wants to be different, if the publishers are not along for the ride, then it is all in vain.

This is sad yet true.

.........isn't it great you don't need a publisher for webmanga? NO RULES!!!

[Shinji01]

Web publishing is a great platform for aspiring artists.
Currently in Japan, online mobile phone novels are all the rage, and anyone registered to the site can write their own novels and have people read them.

I am a great fan of this system myself because you don't have to buy anything, and a mobile phone is much smaller than kindle.

Some of the most popular novels there have already been made into book, tv drama specials, and movies.

I hope nine manga becomes as popular here. But with manga, it's a little more difficult because you have to have a large screen with a PDF reader to really enjoy the manga artwork.

[MisaoFan]

Like Vexx said, the Japanese manga publishers sells said titles for target audience, regardless of plot and/or content. For exemple, Shigurui was published in a shounen manga magazine (Monthly Champion Red), even though it contains seinen-like stuff. As well, Dengeki Daioh is a shounen manga magazine (according to Wiki), even though the furigana was only used for manga titles published in this magazine and doesn't apply to news and stuff that doesn't contains manga-related stuff, such as anime and video games.

[kitten320]

I'll be a dumb one... what is the difference between shounen and shoujo? Never was good in anime genres. Shounen are battle shows like Bleach, FMA, Naruto and etc. What is shoujo genre?

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by kitten320

I'll be a dumb one... what is the difference between shounen and shoujo? Never was good in anime genres. Shounen are battle shows like Bleach, FMA, Naruto and etc. What is shoujo genre?

"shounen" means "anything published by a publisher who is seeking the target audience of young boys"

"shoujo" means "anything published by a publisher who is seeking the target audience of young girls".

It has no other real meaning, though many western fans are often completely misunderstanding on the subject. As you can see from this thread, there are many fans who try to use the terms to mean something else. One can say a genre *tends* to have certain characteristics but you'd only be describing a narrow center of the bell curve. "Battle show" only describes a small subset of shounen titles, for example.

In other words, you *might* describe a general feel for art style, plot dynamics, depth of relationship, romance... but you'd be wrong for a substantial number of titles in each genre. There's also seinen (publishers targeting *men*) and josei (targeting *women*) --- and seinen especially is all over the map if you try to define the content rather than use it as a handle for who published it.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

......so.......if you remove the "label" from these shows, what sets them apart? Well, I'd like to say "fanservice" but that's not true because there are many moe shows without fanservice at all. I'd like to say "because it's from the girl's point of view" but that's not it either; many shounen series have girls as the main character and some shoujo have boys as the main character.
.........and we already covered "style". Seinen or shoujo? Sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference, visually.

Is it content?

Well.....yes but...

No.

The only thing that could be a concrete label is the harem aspect. I don't think a shoujo series could have a plot with one boy and tons of girls throwing themselves at him, the same way a shounen/seinen series wouldn't have one girl with tons of boys going gaga over her.

counter part for Seinen is Josei (young women).

Anyway, it's true there is not really a shojo with one boy and tons of girl as your standard harem but there is shojo version of harem manga. It's call reverse-harem, one girl with bunch of guys. Ouran Host Club is one of such title.

Originally Posted by Vexx

"shounen" means "anything published by a publisher who is seeking the target audience of young boys"

"shoujo" means "anything published by a publisher who is seeking the target audience of young girls".

It has no other real meaning, though many western fans are often completely misunderstanding on the subject. As you can see from this thread, there are many fans who try to use the terms to mean something else. One can say a genre *tends* to have certain characteristics but you'd only be describing a narrow center of the bell curve. "Battle show" only describes a small subset of shounen titles, for example.

In other words, you *might* describe a general feel for art style, plot dynamics, depth of relationship, romance... but you'd be wrong for a substantial number of titles in each genre. There's also seinen (publishers targeting *men*) and josei (targeting *women*) --- and seinen especially is all over the map if you try to define the content rather than use it as a handle for who published it.

Exactly,

Shounen, Seinen, Shojo, Josei, are simple age demographic terms that depict the segment of audience a manga magazines targets.(and by relation the titles it serializes)

Under each label you then got different genre, though certain segment might lean heavily toward certain genre like Shoujo with romance and love comedy or Shonen with hot-blooded action, and fighting. But that doesn't mean they don't have other genres, Shojo has action adventure titles like Sailor Moon, X, Tsubasa Chronicle etc. Seinen could have K-On, Working, Ah My Goddess and Shounen can have Ichigo 100%, I's, Pretty Face, etc.

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Shojo has action adventure titles like Sailor Moon, X, Tsubasa Chronicle etc.

Excuse me, but Tsubasa Chronicle was a shounen series serialized in Shounen Magazine (according to Wiki).

[Undertaker]

My bad, Clamp is all over the place and I messed up, let's change it to Magic Knight Rayearth, Kamikaze Kaito Jeanne, Gakuen Alice, etc.

[Random32]

Originally Posted by kitten320

I'll be a dumb one... what is the difference between shounen and shoujo? Never was good in anime genres. Shounen are battle shows like Bleach, FMA, Naruto and etc. What is shoujo genre?

Shounen, Seinen, Shoujo, and Josei are demographics, for boys, girls, men, and women respectively, not genres. They refer to target audience and nothing else. Shounen manga generally contains things that shounens like reading, etc. You can try and find trends and I'm sure they exist.

Not mentioned at. But a lot of time there are adaptations that are directed at different target demographics than the source material, further emphasizing that shounen/shoujo/seinen/josei don't really imply much about the content.

[Shinji01]

Ok, from the Japanese prospective here....

shonen is magazines such as Jump. Shojyo is ribbon, Nakayoshi, run run etc.
Of you go to a book store of manga cafe, everything is orders under genre ( shonen, Shojyo, seines, Josei) and then sub categories ( magazine names) .

It has no connection what so ever to the story content or author, but purely publisher and magazine.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Undertaker

Anyway, it's true there is not really a shojo with one boy and tons of girl as your standard harem but there is shojo version of harem manga. It's call reverse-harem, one girl with bunch of guys. Ouran Host Club is one of such title.

Um....yeah, we already covered that.

[MisaoFan]

People who ONLY watch shoujo romance and shounen action is what I call them "the noobs" and I hate them. Many of them can be found in my country of Tower of Eiffel. If "the noobs" think of shounen harem romance, they treat it as shoujo but if they thinks of shoujo fantasy like Angel Sanctuary, they mistreat it as shounen.