Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

[Medivh]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Takes too much time to work and is much weaker. His usual bombardment would be better.

If his rupture can target more than 1 target at once, he would just need to melt some of the ice and cast rupture.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Medivh

If his rupture can target more than 1 target at once, he would just need to melt some of the ice and cast rupture.

Melt with Kyokan Jigoku? Would it be useful considering that Rupture destroys instantly? Masaki is better at targeting individual objects, Kyokan Jigoku is AOE, Miyuki would not have much trouble stopping it, it takes at least 30 seconds to activate too. Reading Zeborg's post Katsuto is probably the only magician better than her at this.

[Aika Natsume]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Melt with Kyokan Jigoku? Would it be useful considering that Rupture destroys instantly? Masaki is better at targeting individual objects, Kyokan Jigoku is AOE, Miyuki would not have much trouble stopping it, it takes at least 30 seconds to activate too. Reading Zeborg's post Katsuto is probably the only magician better than her at this.

If Katsuto and Miyuki battles in ice pillar, Miyuki would have a hard time breaking the shield of jumonji BUT i dont think Miyuki can't break it, she will have a hard time but i think she will break it.
Could her vast ZI negate Katsuto??

Ps. If Miyuki and Masaki fight to the death? Would rupture be faster than Miyuki's cocytus/inferno/niflheim?? Or will her ZI be enough to negate it??

how strong is one's ZI when it comes to AOE? If ZI covers a large area does it mean a lesser interference compare to a small area?

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by Aika Natsume

If Katsuto and Miyuki battles in ice pillar, Miyuki would have a hard time breaking the shield of jumonji BUT i dont think Miyuki can't break it, she will have a hard time but i think she will break it.
Could her vast ZI negate Katsuto??

Ps. If Miyuki and Masaki fight to the death? Would rupture be faster than Miyuki's cocytus/inferno/niflheim?? Or will her ZI be enough to negate it??

how strong is one's ZI when it comes to AOE? If ZI covers a large area does it mean a lesser interference compare to a small area?

Ok, so first off. What is magic power? Magic power in it's strictest terms is "the ability to modify eidos" or target information, whatever you prefer. What this means is, 1) Interference strength 2) The area and extent of the modification, 3) Speed. So magic power always directly translates into IS, and then a bit less directly into ZI, in any case more magic power = higher IS.

This is one of the reasons, the match between Katsuto and Miyuki is closer, they are closer in magic power than Miyuki and Masaki who have a difference of 1-2 levels, I can't remember which it was.
Still, based on feats it would seem Miyuki still has the distinct advantage in IS, so she doesn't actually have a problem in breaking the barrier. The problem has more to do with simply the nature of Phalanx. Which means it replaces itself infinitely until the user runs out of Psions. And since the use of Cocytus is obviously forbidden, the match is sort of stuck in a stalemate with neither side being able to affect the others area. Katsuto shouldn't have single target magic strong enough to pierce through Miyuki's ZI, because the Juumonji specialty is Phalanx.

To pierce Miyuki's ZI when she is unsealed and focusing on defense requires someone of similar MP, like Lina/Tatsuya(Tatsuya obviously has very different MP's depending on which MCA he uses) who have an innate magic that can target her directly. And even then, the power would be lowered.
In the duel between Lina and Miyuki, Lina is unable to use normal direct magic (magic that targets her eidos) on her, even though their MP's are close to each other. Which has to do with the combination of Miyuki's natural data fortification, and general aptitude with AoE magic as well as Miyuki having the higher IS.
The requirement is a bit less if she's spreading her ZI, over a very large area though.

In the scenario of Miyuki vs Masaki, if it's not a surprise attack Rupture fairly certainly would not work. Miyuki simply has more IS. Magic that targets the opponents Eidos directly requires you to have a higher IS for it to work, and having it be equal doesn't work, it has to be higher. So this is magic like Rupture and Decomposition. Not very many magics actually work that way.
There's 1 quote about the power of Rupture that came to mind:

Even with the magic Rupture, which Ichijou Masaki was good at, it was difficult to break through an information reinforcement defensive wall in an instant. Tatsuya didn't witness the scene himself, but knew about it because of a detailed battle report about the Yokohama incident.

This is talking about a normal traditional magician's data fortification, and even then Rupture would take some time to pierce it.
Minoru, who has more MP is easily able to pierce it:

In this case, Minoru broke through the defensive wall easily and directly triggered magic onto the enemy.

Also, Tatsuya with Decomposition is able to instantly pierce/destroy Data fortification barriers as well.

In any case, the point is that, overcoming Miyuki's ZI and data fortification, when she is actively defending only a very specific area is incredibly more difficult than this. Coupled with their difference in MP, it can be safely said that without a surprise attack, it's not enough.

Now, there is no data on who's faster, Masaki with Rupture of Miyuki with Cocytus, other than the fact that Miyuki's magic power is higher than his. The difference would be very minor in any case. And no, you can't argue that since Masaki uses a CAD it would be slower. I don't know why Masaki chooses to use a CAD, maybe it's less strain on him, but he is able to use Rupture without it. Just like Katsuto is able to use Phalanx without a CAD, and same as any 10MC family that specializes in a given magic is able to use that magic without a CAD. Magic's like "Phalanx", "Rupture", "Parade", should be considered innate magic, just as Cocytus and Decomposition. The Yotsuba specialty simply means that there is no uniform magic for every member, they just get different ones.

Yes, well the strength of ZI is completely dependent on the users ability to use AoE magic and their natural IS. Someone like Miyuki has enough IS to spread it over a very large area and still have it be extremely effective, but it's less effective than if she concentrated it all in smaller areas, like she does in the duel against Lina. Also as previously stated, attacking Miyuki in her ZI is different than simply using magic in her ZI:

Miyuki’s Zone Intereference made the area a magic null zone.
In the face of that both Tatsuya and Lina switched to narrow, high
density magics.
Their interference strength was only enough to counteract Miyuki’s.
Mounting a direct attack against Miyuki under her zone would have
been difficult even for these two, but otherwise despite significant
reductions in number and speed they were still able to activate magic.

She is also able to do all kinds of things with the way she molds her ZI, switching around the concentrated areas as seen in volume 14:

In order to prove her own words, Miyuki expanded her Zone Interference. At first, she set up a field around her merely as a thin cylindrical layer, to not affect the magic of Minami and Minoru. Then, she stretched the force field pillar to the top and little by little widened it laterally and into a height that continued not disrupting those two. Then, she solidified the circular force field immediately under the surface level towards the bottom of the pillar. Thus, in less than a second, she built a Zone Interference field in the shape of a huge cocktail glass where offensive magic wasn’t allowed at all from either the sky or the underground.

She, has to do something like this when fighting with other people, because ZI doesn't discriminate and Minoru and Minami especially, would have a very hard time casting anything.
Really, you could almost say Miyuki's ZI is her innate magic, just as Cocytus is. The reason other magicians don't use ZI in this way is because they don't have the necessary IS to use it over such large areas, nor the control that Miyuki has with AoE magic.

[Medivh]

I think there is some mistranslation on masaki rupture. Other than rupture, Masaki only has problem casting other magic on people.

Spoiler for Chinese translation of that part:

即使是一条将辉，除了使用擅长的「爆裂」，也很难以其他魔法瞬间突破情报强化防壁。虽然达也并未亲自目击当 时的场面，不过他从横滨事变的详细战斗报告书中得知了这件事。

[Echizen777]

MP is IS, Scale and Speed. Scale is not the area you can cover, it's the size of the magic sequences.

Miyuki has the highest MP in the world, only Lina and Minoru are her equals in that department but it doesn't directly translate into Combat Power where a lot of things matter more. If we are talking about the strongest Japanese magicians under 20 Tatsuya, Katsuto and Masaki are the strongest respectively and I only put Tatsuya above Katsuto because he has Baryon Lance now. Miyuki and Minoru are 4th or 5th.

There is no indication that Miyuki has a higher IS than Katsuto, everything points out the contrary. In terms of AOE defense Katsuto has also better feats. Even disregarding is absurd IS, his barriers have been confirmed to be able to withstand a heat of 2000 degrees and the missiles didn't scratch even a single barrier.

Spoiler for Volume 7:

Just as he arrived Katsuto was subjected to a warm welcome from the
guided missiles.
Katsuto's response was almost pure reflex. He instantaneously erected several physical barriers that were impermeable to air particles and could handle temperatures exceeding 20000 degrees.
The shock waves from the missiles that mysteriously detonated in mid air
didn't even scratch the outer walls covered by Katsuto's barrier.

Even Miyuki's Inferno reaches a heat of 200 degrees+

Spoiler for Volume 4:

Since this was originally an area-of-effect magic, there was no need to
worry needlessly about magic leaking outside and breaking the rules. Still, the very definition of magic forced Magicians to be extremely careful evenwith the simplest of techniques. If an incident were to occur, she would immediately be disqualified from the match, which would prompt him to intervene by any means necessary. This was what was running across Tatsuya's mind as he watched Miyuki.However, he appeared to be agitated over nothing.
The temperature in the enemy's field rocketed past 200 degrees Celsius.

and the Saegusa's Heated Turbulence 500 degrees+

Spoiler for Volume 12:

The tornado that disallowed any breathing devoured Takuma as the air
that was heated above 500 degrees Celsius was about to burn the paper
squares into a crisp.

Katsuto is ridiculously strong and his spatial awareness has been compared to Tatsuya's ES. Excluding an irregular like Tatsuya he is without a doubt the strongest among the pure Modern Magician of that generation, even USNA is aware of this. And he has never shown what he is able to do with the overclocking they mentioned in volume 13.

Minoru used his attack the same way as Rupture and Masaki's Rupture does kill instantly.

Spoiler for Volume 14:

Tatsuya who used his exceptional talent of information body recognition "watched” it. Minoru’s magic produced the same effect as creating an outside interference on an electric current from his body and then poured it inside the enemy magician.

It's been said that with Rupture it's harder to destroy it instantly, not that it doesn't. At worst it says that Minoru is able to do it more easily than Masaki while using his specialty in the same way. It's even mentioned later than both have rivaling IS and that they have equal skills at Modern Magic. In terms of speed Masaki is faster than Miyuki, his speed rivals Tatsuya's Decomposition which is above Miyuki's casting speed.I think Miyuki can dispel Rupture using her ZI at full power and strictly focusing on defense but not for long, especially considering that it is his innate magic and his skills at bombardment. Her full power ZI was not enough to dispel Lina's Parade even though she has more IS than her in terms of pure MP. There are other variables in combat.

Canopus for example is stronger than Lina as long as she is not using Brionac despite having less magic power. Katsushige himself thinks he is stronger than Miyuki despite recognizing that she is the better magician and is feats are kinda impressive.

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

MP is IS, Scale and Speed. Scale is not the area you can cover, it's the size of the magic sequences.

Miyuki has the highest MP in the world, only Lina and Minoru are her equals in that department but it doesn't directly translate into Combat Power where a lot of things matter more. If we are talking about the strongest Japanese magicians under 20 Tatsuya, Katsuto and Masaki are the strongest respectively and I only put Tatsuya above Katsuto because he has Baryon Lance now. Miyuki and Minoru are 4th or 5th.

There is no indication that Miyuki has a higher IS than Katsuto, everything points out the contrary.

What scale means in practice is the area and extent of the modification. So basically the larger the change in target information, the more challenging the magic sequence is.
So, having the magic be a large area magic, instantly makes the spell more taxing, and if the change it's trying to elicit is dramatic, then that too is more taxing. For example making a spell with a large AoE simply blow wind, is much easier to do than casting Inferno for instance.

There is some misconception here, I never said MP = combat strength. Mari is a good example of this.
However, the 2 strongest magicians of their generation in Japan, are without a doubt Miyuki and Tatsuya. In a real fight Miyuki would just finish the fight with Cocytus. Before Byron Lance, Miyuki would have actually been #1 on the list instead of Tatsuya, since she has the capacity to permanently kill him. Although, you can never underestimate Tatsuya in combat. The fact that he's a ruthless and a brutally efficient killer that has been fighting his entire life, gives him an edge in any combat situation.
Also, Minoru is more powerful than Masaki. Masaki ranks either 5th or 6th. You overestimate him and Rupture. There is a clear difference between him and Tatsuya/Miyuki/Katsuto/Lina/Minoru, in terms of matchups and unique magics. His are easily the least powerful. He is basically Tatsuya with only Decomposition, with less IS and less intelligence/tactics/cunning and combat experience, of course he has other magic too, but talking about strictly his specialty here. Rupture works against none of the previously mentioned magicians. Saying Masaki is top 3 is actually based on nothing more than favoritism.

Now about Miyuki having the higher IS. There are various quotes in the book stating that her ZI or IS are uncontested and among the very best. Taking into account that her ability with magic has also been artificially enhanced, I don't really see any reason to believe Katsuto has a higher IS than her. When her IS in ZI is high enough that it gives trouble even to the people around her MP, she should have the highest IS in the entire series.
There really needs to be something more substantial in the books to give credence to the belief that Katsuto has a higher IS. For example Tatsuya is able to easily destroy Katsutos barriers with Decomposition. But he has trouble even casting Decomposition in Miyuki's ZI when it's not even directed at her. So already we know that Tatsuya's IS with his natural MCA is higher than Katsuto's, and Miyuki's IS is either around his level, or higher than that.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

In terms of AOE defense Katsuto has also better feats. Even disregarding is absurd IS, his barriers have been confirmed to be able to withstand a heat of 2000 degrees and the missiles didn't scratch even a single barrier.

Actually, Miyuki seems to have better feats in AoE defense than he does. At least strategically:

Spoiler for Volume 11:

Miyuki's fingers moved smoothly. The thumb of her left hand gripping
the CAD danced across the force feedback panel.
There was no warning.
The air of the forest gleamed. Glittering shards of ice formed on
trunks and branches and fell to the ground. It was a phenomenon
known as thin ice, or diamond dust. February, inland, in a forest at
night; needless to say it would normally be impossible given the
conditions.
There were none who mistook it for a natural occurrence however.
It was a magic which formed an area of diamond dust in a 100 metre
radius instantaneously. This was neither an offensive nor defensive
magic however. Unsure of the intent of the other party, Miyuki was
merely declaring her territory.
By merely forming a thin layer of interference, the weather had
changed. In the Yokohama incident of October, Mari had evaluated
Miyuki's magic as 'worthy of Tactical level'.
Strictly speaking, that was incorrect. Miyuki's magic wasn't 'worthy of'
tactical. It was tactical.
Miyuki's magic abilities, rather than enhancing an effect, was more
specialised towards suppressing an area.

So, Miyuki is able to instantly spread her ZI in a 100-meter radius around her, and it's a powerful enough ability for it to be considered as being tactical class magic. I think this is even with an unsealed Miyuki, who isn't actually actively trying to stop magic from occurring. It's just a safety measure.

Phalanx is more versatile in live combat where there are more moving objects and you are trying to block more than just magic with 1 universal defense. Miyuki would have to switch between ZI and Deceleration Zone, and against large explosions, she would either have to obviate the actual physical and kinetic effects of the explosion with magic, or switch into traditional barrier magic.
There is no such need for Phalanx.

Spoiler for Volume 7:

Just as he arrived Katsuto was subjected to a warm welcome from the
guided missiles.
Katsuto's response was almost pure reflex. He instantaneously erected several physical barriers that were impermeable to air particles and could handle temperatures exceeding 20000 degrees.
The shock waves from the missiles that mysteriously detonated in mid air
didn't even scratch the outer walls covered by Katsuto's barrier.

Even Miyuki's Inferno reaches a heat of 200 degrees+

Spoiler for Volume 4:

Since this was originally an area-of-effect magic, there was no need to
worry needlessly about magic leaking outside and breaking the rules. Still, the very definition of magic forced Magicians to be extremely careful evenwith the simplest of techniques. If an incident were to occur, she would immediately be disqualified from the match, which would prompt him to intervene by any means necessary. This was what was running across Tatsuya's mind as he watched Miyuki.However, he appeared to be agitated over nothing.
The temperature in the enemy's field rocketed past 200 degrees Celsius.

and the Saegusa's Heated Turbulence 500 degrees+

Spoiler for Volume 12:

The tornado that disallowed any breathing devoured Takuma as the air
that was heated above 500 degrees Celsius was about to burn the paper
squares into a crisp.

Spoiler for Volume 14:

Tatsuya who used his exceptional talent of information body recognition "watched” it. Minoru’s magic produced the same effect as creating an outside interference on an electric current from his body and then poured it inside the enemy magician.

Having higher IS means that Miyuki would be able to just target the barrier directly with some sort of destructive magic and destroy it, instead of using AoE. Like Tatsuya does with Decomposition. That's why it's so important for Phalanx to have a high IS.
Also what Miyuki did against Shizuku for example was not melting the barriers, she blew up the nitrogen that got stuck into her pillars by Nilfheim.
It doesn't have to be heat.

It's been said that with Rupture it's harder to destroy it instantly, not that it doesn't. At worst it says that Minoru is able to do it more easily than Masaki while using his specialty in the same way. It's even mentioned later than both have rivaling IS and that they have equal skills at Modern Magic. In terms of speed Masaki is faster than Miyuki, his speed rivals Tatsuya's Decomposition which is above Miyuki's casting speed.I think Miyuki can dispel Rupture using her ZI at full power and strictly focusing on defense but not for long, especially considering that it is his innate magic and his skills at bombardment. Her full power ZI was not enough to dispel Lina's Parade even though she has more IS than her in terms of pure MP. There are other variables in combat.

Canopus for example is stronger than Lina as long as she is not using Brionac despite having less magic power. Katsushige himself thinks he is stronger than Miyuki despite recognizing that she is the better magician and is feats are kinda impressive.

Echizen, you have to have proof when you're making claims like this, you never see me making a claim that I can't prove.
Nowhere does it say that Masaki is faster than Miyuki, and nowhere does it say that Tatsuya is faster than Miyuki. Miyuki is using a general CAD and general magic, which is inherently slower than Tatsuya who uses his innate magic in all situations, with a specialized CAD. Miyuki doesn't have to use Cocytus. So in general her magic will be slower than Tatsuya's but it doesn't mean she's actually slower. You are simply comparing Tatsuya casting in the fastest way possible to Miyuki casting in the slowest way possible. The only thing that can be said, is that Lina has a higher cast speed than Tatsuya and Miyuki.

The quote never says that they have equal IS. The quote says that because this is Minoru's specialty it can't be established that his IS is higher.

Spoiler for quote:

Minoru’s forte is Dispersion Systematic Magic with Electricity Interference, that is, electronic exercise and distribution. As the circumstances show, this magic is Minoru’s specialty, so it can't be established that Minoru's interference power exceeds Masaki’s.

But the fact remains that Minoru easily pierces the fortification, where Rupture would take some time. So this means one of 3 things. 1) Minoru's IS is higher, 2) Rupture as a spell has less IS, 3) The translation is wrong. Obviously there's a reason why Minoru can pierce the barrier instantly and Masaki can't. They are both using their specialties.

We talked about Parade already in our previous discussion. The mechanics for Parade and directly targeted magic are different.
The reason Parade works is because she doesn't have to exceed Miyuki's IS, she just has to have enough to counteract it. So it basically works because their IS's are close enough to each other. It's also why Tatsuya and Lina both, can use magic in her ZI against other opponents in the parasite arc. However, using magic that directly targets Miyuki, requires you to have a higher IS than she does.

So forgetting about the fact that it's very possible that Miyuki would finish the fight instantly with Cocytus. If Miyuki did nothing but defend against Masaki, and Masaki was using only directly targeted magic, even then the one to lose would be Masaki, who would exhaust his Psions reserve way before Miyuki does.
Of course Miyuki would never just defend. In the first place, Masaki would not even be able to defeat someone like Lina, there is a very small % of that happening. And Miyuki was able to defeat Lina, fairly easily without even using Cocytus.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Zeborg

What scale means in practice is the area and extent of the modification. So basically the larger the change in target information, the more challenging the magic sequence is.
So, having the magic be a large area magic, instantly makes the spell more taxing, and if the change it's trying to elicit is dramatic, then that too is more taxing. For example making a spell with a large AoE simply blow wind, is much easier to do than casting Inferno for instance.

It doesn't make the spell more taxing, AOE magic is more difficult in general for reasons explained in volume 4

Spoiler for AOE magic:

This Area of Effect Magic ignored solids, fluids, and gases and created a
force field that reversed motion vectors.
Compared to normal Targeting Magic, Area of Effect Magic was even more
challenging.
The difficulty comes blurring of the lines.
The difference between changing a target's properties and the properties
of an empty space was practically nonexistent. The difficulty arises when
trying to differentiate between which areas needed to be rewritten and
which areas cannot be.
For targets such as walls, ceilings and railings, the partitions can be seen
easily. However, trying to create a distinction in the outdoors for a special
location was many times more difficult.
Still, if this was offensive magic, the difficulty can be lessened by setting
targeting parameters within the Activation Sequence.
On the other hand, defensive magic was restricted in that it had to fulfill all
the conditions without knowing the nature and distance of enemy attacks
as well as having limits on area, volume, and shape.
Such as a shield to protect yourself.
Or a wall to defend your teammates.
By setting the Magician as the origin, a respective distance could be
plotted to the target.
Generally, this was as far as one got.
However, Katsuto set Hattori as the protective target in an outdoor setting
with no reference points without the need for supporting tools. He had
created a perfect "Reflector" from 400 meters out.
This was an outstanding spatial awareness.
The Juumonji Family took the next step to hone their natural talents in
spatial awareness. Their ability to wield multiple types of Area of Effect
defensive magic has earned them the title "Stonewall".

But essentially it all comes to the MCA, Miyuki has a MCA predisposing her to AOE magic so she is better at it, even though she and Lina have equal MP, Lina is better at magic aiming at individual targets.

There is some misconception here, I never said MP = combat strength. Mari is a good example of this.
However, the 2 strongest magicians of their generation in Japan, are without a doubt Miyuki and Tatsuya. In a real fight Miyuki would just finish the fight with Cocytus. Before Byron Lance, Miyuki would have actually been #1 on the list instead of Tatsuya, since she has the capacity to permanently kill him. Although, you can never underestimate Tatsuya in combat. The fact that he's a ruthless and a brutally efficient killer that has been fighting his entire life, gives him an edge in any combat situation.

No, Miyuki is not stronger, it's been highlighted a few times that Tatsuya is the stronger sibling, she has the ability to freeze his consciousness but it's not enough of a reason, Tatsuya is faster, has ES and can dispel it with Gram Dispersion or Demolition. The two spells that he can't dispel completely with right now are Phalanx due to its very nature and Meteor Stream, which managed to injure him. He was even able to dispel both Niflheim and Muspelheim but of course physical modifications it creates are unavoidable. Even under ZI his Counter Magics are unaffected since they are NS. And he also has Trident.

Also, Minoru is more powerful than Masaki. Masaki ranks either 5th or 6th. You overestimate him and Rupture. There is a clear difference between him and Tatsuya/Miyuki/Katsuto/Lina/Minoru, in terms of matchups and unique magics. His are easily the least powerful. He is basically Tatsuya with only Decomposition, with less IS and less intelligence/tactics/cunning and combat experience, of course he has other magic too, but talking about strictly his specialty here. Rupture works against none of the previously mentioned magicians. Saying Masaki is top 3 is actually based on nothing more than favoritism.

I don't understand why you try to valorize combat experience this much when we are talking about these four and yet claim that Miyuki is even stronger than Tatsuya. If we talk about combat experience, Minoru is clearly the one with the least of it, and yet he is very effective during combat. I don't understand why you separate him from Katsuto either when we know he is inferior to Miyuki/Lina/Minoru in terms of MP. First, you can't actually say that Masaki has less IS than any of them when it's about using their specialties. Tatsuya can dispel them all besides Phalanx but his Counter Magics are not dependent on IS. When he is using Decomposition as an attack though, it's different, his attack was clashing with Katsushige for a reason. And Minoru didn't show any kind of magic superior to him offensively, his typicality is Parade, one even better than Lina. Masaki is not someone who fights with cunning tactics in the first place, the way he deals with fights is different.

Spoiler for Volume 5 SS:

"After all not only is it impossible for Masaki to use the same kind of tactics as he does, it is also probably not necessary."
Immediately after the laughter disappeared, Kichijouji returned to the topic with serious expression on his face.
"I think what Masaki must learn is not how to use clever tricks but how to deal with clever tricks."

"A little different. I think I said it before, but tricks don’t suit you, Masaki. And also, I don’t think you have to learn trickery yourself; I think it would be better if you learn what to do if you’ve fallen for one of your opponent’s ploys."
"Specifically?"
Masaki was neither depressed nor rebellious over Kichijouji’s harsh criticism and asked for a positive plan of action to fix his weaknesses. For a long time, this had been the way the pair operated.
"I think we need to work on situational judgment: when to temporarily retreat to take a look at the situation, when to smash through to victory by sheer power, and when to play for time and consult those who are acting as your staff officers. For the rest, developing the sensitivity to know something is going on."

What do you mean by it doesn't work? Any of them would explode if touched, all magicians have their counter magics but there's more than that in combat situations. You make it seem too easy.

Now about Miyuki having the higher IS. There are various quotes in the book stating that her ZI or IS are uncontested and among the very best. Taking into account that her ability with magic has also been artificially enhanced, I don't really see any reason to believe Katsuto has a higher IS than her. When her IS in ZI is high enough that it gives trouble even to the people around her MP, she should have the highest IS in the entire series.

All Magicians are result of artificial enhancements and the 28 families even more so, it is not enough of a reason. In terms of pure IS yes Miyuki has been described as one of the best, but Katsuto is one of the best. Not only he as the feats but his family is specialized in AOE defense, Phalanx's nature makes it even more difficult and I mentioned the temporal overclocking. Yes, you can say there is no guarantee that Katsuto has more IS but it's the same for Miyuki. Hence why I am only mentioning him when I talk about pure IS.

There really needs to be something more substantial in the books to give credence to the belief that Katsuto has a higher IS. For example Tatsuya is able to easily destroy Katsutos barriers with Decomposition. But he has trouble even casting Decomposition in Miyuki's ZI when it's not even directed at her. So already we know that Tatsuya's IS with his natural MCA is higher than Katsuto's, and Miyuki's IS is either around his level, or higher than that.

First, how can you say that Tatsuya is able to easily destroys them? He can destroy some barriers but the nature of Phalanx creates them infinitely. You are also comparing Barrier Magic with ZI. If Miyuki makes a barrier to protect herself, she won't be able to protect herself efficiently. Katsuto is from the 10th lab, Barrier magic is what they use as CM and the best of this type in the world, Miyuki is from the 4th, they are specialized in other things, Miyuki has ZI as her most efficient CM. Tatsuya has trouble casting under Miyuki's ZI, as he should but he still can. In combat situations Miyuki would also need to consider the offensive and it'd make things even harder for her. Which is something magicians from the 10th and 3rd lab considered. They are the best when it comes to wielding multiple magics. Even Lina's barrier could resist for a while against Tatsuya's Decomposition, and it's far from being her specialty.

Spoiler for Quote:

Tatsuya fired six shots of his 'dissolution' but it had no effect on Lina's magic barrier, it persisted in sticking to her limbs.
At the joints of both arms and legs, he was able to drill thin holes large
enough to put a needle through. The four microscopic scars caused Lina
intense pain equal to having a file whittle directly on her nerves.
She didn't have time to cry out in pain before her mind blew a circuit.
Her mind was swallowed by a white darkness.

Spoiler for 3rd and 10 lab:

Third Laboratory
Established 2032 in Atsugi. In operation.
In developing magicians that can independently handle multiple situations, it is
implementing multicasting technology. Exploring limits on the maximum number of
magics that can be cast synchronously and continuously, it is developing magicians
able to cast multiple magics synchronously.

Tenth Laboratory
Established 2039 in Tokyo. Currently shut down.
In addition to capital defense like the Seventh, it focuses on wide-area magic that
generates virtual structures in space as a defensive countermeasure to heavy
firepower. The results are the barrier magics against a great variety of objects.
In addition the Tenth sought to increase the magic abilities with methods different from
that of Fourth. Specifically, not by strengthening the magic calculation zone itself but
by temporarily overclocking it, it dealt in developing magicians that can cast powerful
magic when the situation calls for it. However the results were not publicized.

They had activated this magic while Suffocating
Turbulence was ongoing, but this was still within the boundaries of their
abilities right now. The main subject of the 3rd Research Lab was the
control of multiple magics at the same time. The 3rd Research Lab
originally intended to test the boundary of how many magics could be
activated at the same time as well as raising that boundary as part of their
Magician Augmentation Project. Among the Magician Development Labs,
the 3rd Research Lab was a rarity in that they were open with their
findings, allowing the 10th Research Lab to also benefit from this finding.
For the Juumonji Family that had mastered Phalanx, this helped them
incorporate more magic and resulted in the ability to use multiple magics.
As for the Saegusa Family Magicians who moved to the 7th Research Lab,
even if it was high level magic, using two or three of them at the same time
was no difficult task.

Actually, Miyuki seems to have better feats in AoE defense than he does. At least strategically:

Spoiler for Volume 11:

Miyuki's fingers moved smoothly. The thumb of her left hand gripping
the CAD danced across the force feedback panel.
There was no warning.
The air of the forest gleamed. Glittering shards of ice formed on
trunks and branches and fell to the ground. It was a phenomenon
known as thin ice, or diamond dust. February, inland, in a forest at
night; needless to say it would normally be impossible given the
conditions.
There were none who mistook it for a natural occurrence however.
It was a magic which formed an area of diamond dust in a 100 metre
radius instantaneously. This was neither an offensive nor defensive
magic however. Unsure of the intent of the other party, Miyuki was
merely declaring her territory.
By merely forming a thin layer of interference, the weather had
changed. In the Yokohama incident of October, Mari had evaluated
Miyuki's magic as 'worthy of Tactical level'.
Strictly speaking, that was incorrect. Miyuki's magic wasn't 'worthy of'
tactical. It was tactical.
Miyuki's magic abilities, rather than enhancing an effect, was more
specialised towards suppressing an area.

So, Miyuki is able to instantly spread her ZI in a 100-meter radius around her, and it's a powerful enough ability for it to be considered as being tactical class magic. I think this is even with an unsealed Miyuki, who isn't actually actively trying to stop magic from occurring. It's just a safety measure.

Phalanx is more versatile in live combat where there are more moving objects and you are trying to block more than just magic with 1 universal defense. Miyuki would have to switch between ZI and Deceleration Zone, and against large explosions, she would either have to obviate the actual physical and kinetic effects of the explosion with magic, or switch into traditional barrier magic.
There is no such need for Phalanx.

While Katsuto was able to use his magic from 400 meters, defend instantly against waves of missiles and so on. I am taling about some points here just above, Barrier Magic and ZI have different properties, for someone like Katsuto who is, too one of the strongest Magicians and comes from a family who is better at AOE defense than any other ones there's no way Miyuki can best him at AOE defense, Katsuto doesn't need to use ZI because he has a better magic and can use AOE for such purposes better. Miyuki is good at AOE attack and defense but she can't be better than him. Her ZI is probably better than his but overall he is the best at it, and has much better magic. With better way to deal with them at once, their AOE defense is specifically about Barrier Magic, which is different from a AOE magic which rewrites a zone. In terms of AOE defense they are just better overall.

Having higher IS means that Miyuki would be able to just target the barrier directly with some sort of destructive magic and destroy it, instead of using AoE. Like Tatsuya does with Decomposition. That's why it's so important for Phalanx to have a high IS.
Also what Miyuki did against Shizuku for example was not melting the barriers, she blew up the nitrogen that got stuck into her pillars by Nilfheim.
It doesn't have to be heat.

Again you make it seem too easy. Yes, it doesn't need to be it, Miyuki got Shizuku with cold wind but the cold wind didn't get through her defense because of IS in particular, it was just like when Tatsuya dispelled Niflheim and Muspelheim at once, because the physical changes brought by magic can't be dispelled. But Phalanx takes in account all of that and Miyuki is less skilled at direct targeting, her magic is suited for AOE.


Echizen, you have to have proof when you're making claims like this, you never see me making a claim that I can't prove.

Nowhere does it say that Masaki is faster than Miyuki, and nowhere does it say that Tatsuya is faster than Miyuki. Miyuki is using a general CAD and general magic, which is inherently slower than Tatsuya who uses his innate magic in all situations, with a specialized CAD. Miyuki doesn't have to use Cocytus. So in general her magic will be slower than Tatsuya's but it doesn't mean she's actually slower. You are simply comparing Tatsuya casting in the fastest way possible to Miyuki casting in the slowest way possible. The only thing that can be said, is that Lina has a higher cast speed than Tatsuya and Miyuki.

Don't use CADs as an excuse, people have different fighting styles. At this point, Tatsuya being faster than Miyuki should be obvious to anyone. Her Freezing magic specialty comes from Cocytus, Freezing magic is a specialty of her. This is already a fact that Miyuki is slower than Lina. And here is what was said about one of Lina's attack.

Spoiler for Quote:

The activation speed was comparable to Tatsuya's Decomposition. It was a specialised device which began an activation sequence the moment it was gripped, cutting out the time and effort needed to operate the switch and thus seizing the initiative.

Overall, Lina is the fastest caster in the world and Miyuki's casting speed seems to be equal to Mayumi and Minoru.

Spoiler for Quote:

With the underground situation uncertain, there was a high possibility that
using surface oscillation magic might worsen the tragedy.
"I won't use that!"
Shaking off Isori's hand, Kanon was about to activate her magic.
Just as she took aim at the targets,
—Not only were they shot to pieces, they were also covered in white frost.
"Ah......"
"As expected of Mayumi and Miyuki. We don't even have time to do
anything."

In comparison Kanon is a turtle. However, Tatsuya can't keep up with Lina's speed when she is using Parade, her innate magic.

I have probably posted this somewhere before but it means it's like that:

Flash Cast>Lina's Parade> Tatsuya's innate magic=Lina casting speed in general> Miyuki=Mayumi=Minoru.

Now, about Masaki. During their match in volume 04 there was no clear speed difference between the two, and Tatsuya wasn't handicapped in this department because he was using his NS magic Gram Demolition and he was actually supported by ES, the magic Masaki was using here was Air Bullet, Convergence type magic hence not his specialty. With Rupture he'd obviously be even faster, he stopped Zhou's evasion almost instantly with it. He can defintely keep up with Tatsuya using his specialized magics. While Miyuki, even though very fast needs to hasten her magic with a surprise attack in order to attack before Lina.

The quote never says that they have equal IS. The quote says that because this is Minoru's specialty it can't be established that his IS is higher.

Spoiler for quote:

Minoru’s forte is Dispersion Systematic Magic with Electricity Interference, that is, electronic exercise and distribution. As the circumstances show, this magic is Minoru’s specialty, so it can't be established that Minoru's interference power exceeds Masaki’s.

But the fact remains that Minoru easily pierces the fortification, where Rupture would take some time. So this means one of 3 things. 1) Minoru's IS is higher, 2) Rupture as a spell has less IS, 3) The translation is wrong. Obviously there's a reason why Minoru can pierce the barrier instantly and Masaki can't. They are both using their specialties.

I didn't say equal I said rivaling IS, it was mention that they had equal Modern Magic skills however. In this part Minoru was confirmed to be as fast as Mayumi, better at Parade than Lina, better at AOE than Hanzo with Modern magic skills equaling Masaki. As you said, it was not said whose IS is superior so obviously they are in the same ballpark. As I said in my previous post, even if the translation is wrong it doesn't mean that Rupture doesn't kill instantly, it means that it is more difficult to kill instantly with it, Rupture instantaneously vaporizes fluids, the way Minoru used his lightning magic was to pour it down inside them. Considering what Medvih's post the translation is most likely wrong anyway because Lightning magic is Release type, not Dispersion type.

We talked about Parade already in our previous discussion. The mechanics for Parade and directly targeted magic are different.
The reason Parade works is because she doesn't have to exceed Miyuki's IS, she just has to have enough to counteract it. So it basically works because their IS's are close enough to each other. It's also why Tatsuya and Lina both, can use magic in her ZI against other opponents in the parasite arc. However, using magic that directly targets Miyuki, requires you to have a higher IS than she does.

It means that Miyuki's full power IS is not enough to dispel Lina's innate magic, it is her specialty. ZI is Miyuki's best CM but it's not Freezing magic or Cocytus, in the end it has no particular type. It was confirmed that both could attack her even at full power however and if Miyuki needs to switch to offense her ZI will obviously loses power.

So forgetting about the fact that it's very possible that Miyuki would finish the fight instantly with Cocytus. If Miyuki did nothing but defend against Masaki, and Masaki was using only directly targeted magic, even then the one to lose would be Masaki, who would exhaust his Psions reserve way before Miyuki does.
Of course Miyuki would never just defend. In the first place, Masaki would not even be able to defeat someone like Lina, there is a very small % of that happening. And Miyuki was able to defeat Lina, fairly easily without even using Cocytus.

Miyuki won easily against Lina not because she was stronger, it's because Lina underestimated her and Miyuki beat her strategically, Lina also had fought previously, her surprise attack is what gave her the edge, Lina didn't use Parade either.

Just like with Lina's Parade, Rupture is Masaki's innate magic while ZI is nothing of the sort. It's better for her because her MCA is predisposed to AOE like Katsuto while people like Tatsuya, Masaki, Lina and Mayumi are better at direct targeting. Since Masaki is able to overcome even Tatsuya's Gram Demolition with shots of Air Bullets, I don't see how it'd be impossible for him to overcome ZI in combat. Especially when he is better at attack bombardment and is faster. ZI is a top tier CM in the hands by Miyuki but it is far from being as efficient as you claim. I did say that she would most likely be able to stop a single shot of Rupture completely or significantly but only at full defense. And there are other ways to overcome these kinds of CM depending on the magic used and the distance, like with Wind magics for example.

[Medivh]

ZI is not be all and end all of counter magic.

A major weakness in ZI is that people can always cast magic outside of it and shoot projectile on the target.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Medivh

ZI is not be all and end all of counter magic.

A major weakness in ZI is that people can always cast magic outside of it and shoot projectile on the target.

Also, ZI only counters magic that affect Edios. It is ineffective against non-systematic magic and any spells that don't alter Edios.

There must also be a way for magicians to "overlap" the opponent ZI, otherwise Erika wouldn't have been able to cast PAM, Inertia Cancel and something else that was either movement or weight type magic (the narrator didn't seems to know) while standing right beside Lina when they were fighting (the PAM and something else were cast at the same time Lina was casting something).

[Medivh]

Correct me if I'm wrong. ZI has to be exerted for it to work. It is also easier to cast magic on oneself.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Medivh

Correct me if I'm wrong. ZI has to be exerted for it to work. It is also easier to cast magic on oneself.

ZI is a spell that you cast from a technical point of view. It just doesn't modify anything and is set in a radius around the caster. It's just an application of spell interference.

I don't see any reasons why Lina wouldn't have set a ZI in her fight against Erika though. It's standard magic combat tactic (unless your spell interference sucks I guess).

[Echizen777]

Yes, ZI is awesome because Miyuki is the one using it but it is not that amazing. She needs to continue to exert it and she isn't a very mobile fighter.A big difference with Katsuto who is easily able to move with his barriers on and who is even an expert of high speed Move type magic. It also doesn't belong to a type like Oscillation and stuff, it's pure IS used on a large area unlike something like Phalanx or Parade or Gram magics which are direct specialties.

Her defense is at her best when she is using it at full power but using an offensive while keeping it, would lower her defense, she would need to activate another magic, which depends on her casting speed. And as I said in my post above, Magicians form the 3rd, 7th and 10th lab are the best at manipulating multiple magics at once. When she fought Lina she stopped her at full power then used another magic for that reason. Keeping it for too long would limit her too much against opponents of this caliber.

Originally Posted by azarhal

ZI is a spell that you cast from a technical point of view. It just doesn't modify anything and is set in a radius around the caster. It's just an application of spell interference.

I don't see any reasons why Lina wouldn't have set a ZI in her fight against Erika though. It's standard magic combat tactic (unless your spell interference sucks I guess).

Most likely because it's not her style, she is better at direct attack. She seems to prefer using DF and Parade. She did use it once in the Visitor arc though, but for a moment.

Spoiler for Quote:

All of a sudden, the shadows in the street released an electrical attack
towards Lina.
Q, R, and Lina were completely unable to detect this surprise attack before
it sprang.
Nonetheless, the electric shock merely gave off a flash and faded away
before coming into contact with Lina's body.
Lina had activated Wide Area Disruption on reflex and nullified the
vampire's magic.
During this time, Lina's arm remained in its aiming position.
The muzzle was directly pointed at Sullivan's heart.

[Medivh]

Originally Posted by azarhal

ZI is a spell that you cast from a technical point of view. It just doesn't modify anything and is set in a radius around the caster. It's just an application of spell interference.

I don't see any reasons why Lina wouldn't have set a ZI in her fight against Erika though. It's standard magic combat tactic (unless your spell interference sucks I guess).

She was using parade. No magic is able to target her directly and she wasn't even taking the fight seriously. Like mentioned by Echizen777, Lina also don't fight with ZI.

ZI is only good if the area is very big and IS is sufficiently strong. The size need to cover several metres in diameter. If not, it is just a waste of effort. Only some people would use it as a standard magic tactic.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Medivh

She was using parade. No magic is able to target her directly and she wasn't even taking the fight seriously.

Erika never targeted anyone but herself or her weapon, parade had no effect on her...and I don't see what that has to do with Lina setting up a ZI or not.

[Echizen777]

At this moment I think she was only using it to hide her appearance, if she wanted she could have shifted her position and do more as well. She was holding back and probably was too anxious to consider injuring her severely. Erika took notice of her naivety when they were fighting.

[Medivh]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Erika never targeted anyone but herself or her weapon, parade had no effect on her...and I don't see what that has to do with Lina setting up a ZI or not.

She was already using an effective counter magic. Using ZI overlaps quite a big chunk of parade purpose. Which is why she doesn't always set up ZI.

If she wanted, she could have shifted position and erika would be hitting air.

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

It doesn't make the spell more taxing, AOE magic is more difficult in general for reasons explained in volume 4

Spoiler for AOE magic:

This Area of Effect Magic ignored solids, fluids, and gases and created a
force field that reversed motion vectors.
Compared to normal Targeting Magic, Area of Effect Magic was even more
challenging.
The difficulty comes blurring of the lines.
The difference between changing a target's properties and the properties
of an empty space was practically nonexistent. The difficulty arises when
trying to differentiate between which areas needed to be rewritten and
which areas cannot be.
For targets such as walls, ceilings and railings, the partitions can be seen
easily. However, trying to create a distinction in the outdoors for a special
location was many times more difficult.
Still, if this was offensive magic, the difficulty can be lessened by setting
targeting parameters within the Activation Sequence.
On the other hand, defensive magic was restricted in that it had to fulfill all
the conditions without knowing the nature and distance of enemy attacks
as well as having limits on area, volume, and shape.
Such as a shield to protect yourself.
Or a wall to defend your teammates.
By setting the Magician as the origin, a respective distance could be
plotted to the target.
Generally, this was as far as one got.
However, Katsuto set Hattori as the protective target in an outdoor setting
with no reference points without the need for supporting tools. He had
created a perfect "Reflector" from 400 meters out.
This was an outstanding spatial awareness.
The Juumonji Family took the next step to hone their natural talents in
spatial awareness. Their ability to wield multiple types of Area of Effect
defensive magic has earned them the title "Stonewall".

But essentially it all comes to the MCA, Miyuki has a MCA predisposing her to AOE magic so she is better at it, even though she and Lina have equal MP, Lina is better at magic aiming at individual targets.

Well, I didn't really mean taxing in a physical way, I meant that it was more challenging to do. But since you brought it up, it is actually more demanding. What makes any given spell more draining than others is the volume of change, it's trying to elicit in the target information, and the duration of the effect. Both of these conditions are higher in AoE, than in single target magic.
So what happens is that the more complicated the activation sequence is within these 2 parameters, the more Psions you have to input into the CAD.

It's not like this a very important fact however, since the efficiency of CAD's means that there isn't that big of a concern of magical exhaustion happening.
What your quote does, is simply tell that AoE is difficult, which I thought was fairly obvious. I've also given you this quote when explaining something before already. So I do know it.

No, Miyuki is not stronger, it's been highlighted a few times that Tatsuya is the stronger sibling, she has the ability to freeze his consciousness but it's not enough of a reason, Tatsuya is faster, has ES and can dispel it with Gram Dispersion or Demolition. The two spells that he can't dispel completely with right now are Phalanx due to its very nature and Meteor Stream, which managed to injure him. He was even able to dispel both Niflheim and Muspelheim but of course physical modifications it creates are unavoidable. Even under ZI his Counter Magics are unaffected since they are NS. And he also has Trident.

I don't really see it highlighted anywhere that Tatsuya is stronger than Miyuki, like you say. They have different strengths. On the opposite there are actually numerous examples of Tatsuya saying that Miyuki is much more powerful than she thinks or better than him in certain aspects.
For example Miyuki doesn't want to dual wield CAD's because she thinks the technique is beyond her level, even though Tatsuya says that she could easily do it. There are various little examples like this throughout the novel. But these go both ways.

Anyway, I actually did say that Tatsuya is stronger, not sure if you read wrong. It's true now that he has Byron Lance. Before that, Miyuki was stronger on paper. And the reason I say on paper is because you cannot count Tatsuya out in any combat situation because he is an unfeeling trained killer. He is the perfect weapon. While Miyuki is also perfectly capable of being ruthless and cunning it's not to the extent of Tatsuya.
Again, Tatsuya isn't faster. I'll get to it a bit later, but that has never been said or implied. The reason Tatsuya is stronger doesn't have to do with ES or Gram dispersion, it has to do with him having a spell that is too fast to react to in Byron Lance. A duel with Tatsuya will generally never last long.

Yes, Maya's casting speed is too fast for Tatsuya to cancel before the first revolution. Doesn't mean that her casting speed is faster than his. It simply means that the time delay it takes to notice the magic, analyze it and dispel it is too high for Tatsuya to have the casting speed to dispel it before it takes effect.
Byron Lance pierces Phalanx, so that isn't really a problem. And this comes from Tatsuya's own mouth.

Sure, ZI doesn't block nonsystematic magic. But Tatsuya's fake MCA is too weak to even pierce the natural data fortification of a magician many levels lower than Miyuki. Doubtful that there's anything he could do with it in their hypothetical duel.

I don't understand why you try to valorize combat experience this much when we are talking about these four and yet claim that Miyuki is even stronger than Tatsuya. If we talk about combat experience, Minoru is clearly the one with the least of it, and yet he is very effective during combat. I don't understand why you separate him from Katsuto either when we know he is inferior to Miyuki/Lina/Minoru in terms of MP. First, you can't actually say that Masaki has less IS than any of them when it's about using their specialties. Tatsuya can dispel them all besides Phalanx but his Counter Magics are not dependent on IS. When he is using Decomposition as an attack though, it's different, his attack was clashing with Katsushige for a reason. And Minoru didn't show any kind of magic superior to him offensively, his typicality is Parade, one even better than Lina. Masaki is not someone who fights with cunning tactics in the first place, the way he deals with fights is different.

What do you mean by it doesn't work? Any of them would explode if touched, all magicians have their counter magics but there's more than that in combat situations. You make it seem too easy.

Valorize combat experience? When did I do such a thing? In the first place the only one who has enough experience to be considered as an actual factor is Tatsuya, who has been trained as a Yotsuba killer for his entire life, starting almost as soon as he could walk. Even, then it's only a little relevant. It doesn't really come into play in a 1v1 duel. It's more about life or death situations.

I think sometimes, Echizen you might be in a hurry to write a reply and you ignore some of the things being said to you, or you read it in a certain way.
These are my words from the last post:

Before Byron Lance, Miyuki would have actually been #1 on the list instead of Tatsuya

Clearly, I am saying with Byron lance, Tatsuya is the strongest combat magician in Japan, of this generation.

The other thing I said was:

There is a clear difference between him and Tatsuya/Miyuki/Katsuto/Lina/Minoru, in terms of matchups and unique magics. His are easily the least powerful.

So, what I'm saying is that against any of the 5 previously mentioned magicians. Rupture does not work. It does not work on Parade, it does not work on Phalanx, it does not work on Miyuki's ZI and Tatsuya will cancel it. Which means that they are able to render his specialty useless. And it's not like he has other specialties to cover for it like Miyuki who has an insane IS.

And then the other thing I'm saying here is that Rupture is easily the least powerful of all the unique magics here. Miyuki has Cocytus that goes through everything, Lina and Minoru have Parade that blocks all directly targeted spells, Phalanx blocks nearly everything. And finally Tatsuya has a magic that is sort of similar to Rupture in Decomposition, but not really, because he can cancel magic with it and he can dispel almost any defense with it. On top of this Tatsuya is almost immortal in combat, being able to restore his body and any equipment he wants to, and then he even has ES that allows him to see everything you do, and track all of your movements. He is also a genius with a bazillion more times experience with life or death situations and combat than Masaki, as well as being a master martial artist.
So that was the comparison. Masaki sort of has a spell like Decomposition but none of Tatsuya's other talents, though he can use other spells. But this isn't really impressive when all of the others can too, except for Tatsuya of course.

So you can clearly see Masaki is at a disadvantage. He also has less MP, than any of them.

All Magicians are result of artificial enhancements and the 28 families even more so, it is not enough of a reason. In terms of pure IS yes Miyuki has been described as one of the best, but Katsuto is one of the best. Not only he as the feats but his family is specialized in AOE defense, Phalanx's nature makes it even more difficult and I mentioned the temporal overclocking. Yes, you can say there is no guarantee that Katsuto has more IS but it's the same for Miyuki. Hence why I am only mentioning him when I talk about pure IS.

First, how can you say that Tatsuya is able to easily destroys them? He can destroy some barriers but the nature of Phalanx creates them infinitely. You are also comparing Barrier Magic with ZI. If Miyuki makes a barrier to protect herself, she won't be able to protect herself efficiently. Katsuto is from the 10th lab, Barrier magic is what they use as CM and the best of this type in the world, Miyuki is from the 4th, they are specialized in other things, Miyuki has ZI as her most efficient CM. Tatsuya has trouble casting under Miyuki's ZI, as he should but he still can. In combat situations Miyuki would also need to consider the offensive and it'd make things even harder for her. Which is something magicians from the 10th and 3rd lab considered. They are the best when it comes to wielding multiple magics. Even Lina's barrier could resist for a while against Tatsuya's Decomposition, and it's far from being her specialty.

Not all magicians are modified. A lot of the modern magicians are though.
Tatsuya himself says that the battle between him and Katsuto would become a war of attrition with him destroying his barriers and the barriers replenishing. This is before Byron lance, of course.
Again, I have never said that Tatsuya will destroy the entire Phalanx, what he can do is destroy a couple of them at a time with Trident. You are putting a lot of words into my mouth Echizen. Read carefully.
The fact that he can't just dispel all of them at once isn't really that important in this conversation. What's important is that he can destroy one. And as I've said earlier, being able to destroy the barrier with a single target spell, means that Tatsuya has the higher IS when using his natural MCA. Which as an extension means that Miyuki has a higher IS than Katsuto as well.

Also, when talking about Miyuki, you can't use standard rules like "This family is good at X, and no one else can be that good". It just doesn't work that way with Miyuki. She has been artificially enhanced in every way, with both magic and genetic engineering. That's why she seems like such a cheat character. She, and to a lesser extent Minoru are unique in that way. They can have talents that rival other families specialties, because they are made in such a way. You are applying a "standard" rule to a nonstandard function.

Spoiler for Quote:

Tatsuya fired six shots of his 'dissolution' but it had no effect on Lina's magic barrier, it persisted in sticking to her limbs.
At the joints of both arms and legs, he was able to drill thin holes large
enough to put a needle through. The four microscopic scars caused Lina
intense pain equal to having a file whittle directly on her nerves.
She didn't have time to cry out in pain before her mind blew a circuit.
Her mind was swallowed by a white darkness.

Yeah, this was a mistranslation. I remember reading about it on these forums. I don't know which topic it was, I was speed reading a lot of the threads. Apparently Tatsuya easily pierces Lina's barrier with his shots.

While Katsuto was able to use his magic from 400 meters, defend instantly against waves of missiles and so on. I am taling about some points here just above, Barrier Magic and ZI have different properties, for someone like Katsuto who is, too one of the strongest Magicians and comes from a family who is better at AOE defense than any other ones there's no way Miyuki can best him at AOE defense, Katsuto doesn't need to use ZI because he has a better magic and can use AOE for such purposes better. Miyuki is good at AOE attack and defense but she can't be better than him. Her ZI is probably better than his but overall he is the best at it, and has much better magic. With better way to deal with them at once, their AOE defense is specifically about Barrier Magic, which is different from a AOE magic which rewrites a zone. In terms of AOE defense they are just better overall.

Well, it's not really that valid of an opinion. I just gave you an example of an unsealed Miyuki casting a 100 meter radius ZI that prevents spellcasting in an instant. It's tactical magic. Katsuto doesn't have magic that is considered tactical. Not so far. This automatically means that Miyuki has better AoE defense. This is just the truth.
And I just explained to you that trying to apply normal standard to an abnormal situation, is not that smart. If Miyuki was a traditional magician, then sure, what you're saying would make sense. She isn't thought, and you have to understand that.

In any case what the 10th family specializes in is AoE defense with:

Magic that generates virtual structures in space as a defensive countermeasure to heavy
firepower.

So this means AoE defense with barriers against traditional warfare. ZI, is really just a counter magic. Obviously Deceleration Zone has it's limitations, some of which I went through in the previous post, so what we can take away from this is that Katsuto would be better at defending against stuff like bullets and explosions and moving objects, whereas Miyuki is better at defending against magic.

Again you make it seem too easy. Yes, it doesn't need to be it, Miyuki got Shizuku with cold wind but the cold wind didn't get through her defense because of IS in particular, it was just like when Tatsuya dispelled Niflheim and Muspelheim at once, because the physical changes brought by magic can't be dispelled. But Phalanx takes in account all of that and Miyuki is less skilled at direct targeting, her magic is suited for AOE.

Not making anything seem too easy, it's just how magic in Mahouka works. Also, this is what happened:

Surprised that Shizuku could dual-wield CADs, Miyuki faltered for a second, and for the first time, her Pillars were hit by a magic attack and began to melt. However, Miyuki recovered almost instantly, and cast Nilfheim on the whole field. The sublimation of her own pillars stopped, and Shizuku's pillars were covered in a layer of nitrogen. Upon the reactivation of Inferno, the layer of nitrogen exploded, shattering Shizuku's pillars into tiny pieces.

And again you're making a baseless claim about Miyuki.

Miyuki is less skilled at direct targeting, her magic is suited for AOE

Prove it, or it's not worth talking about. How can anyone even be "less skilled at direct targeting", that doesn't even make any kind of sense as a concept. This is a joke. Multi targeting is something entirely different, if that's what you're thinking.

Don't use CADs as an excuse, people have different fighting styles. At this point, Tatsuya being faster than Miyuki should be obvious to anyone. Her Freezing magic specialty comes from Cocytus, Freezing magic is a specialty of her. This is already a fact that Miyuki is slower than Lina. And here is what was said about one of Lina's attack.

CAD's as an excuse? Did you not know they were different? Here:

Although this type of CAD has the advantage with speed (over Generalized ones), the number of activation sequences that can be used is limited. Specialized CADs can only store nine types of Activation Sequences of a single system of magic, and is originally intended for Magicians who are strong in select/specific areas of Magic.

Tatsuya uses a Specialized one, and Miyuki uses a general one. And as I said, Tatsuya mostly uses Decomposition with it. Which means that it will be faster than normal magic anyway. Miyuki does not use Cocytus with a specialized CAD.
And how are fighting styles even relevant? We are talking about casting speed.
There is nothing in the books that even imply that Tatsuya has a higher casting speed than Miyuki, saying this is obvious means you are not being honest. You have to understand the foolishness of comparing Tatsuya casting his innate magics to Miyuki casting normal magics with her general CAD. I can't even believe you're doing it.

Overall, Lina is the fastest caster in the world and Miyuki's casting speed seems to be equal to Mayumi and Minoru.

Spoiler for Quote:

With the underground situation uncertain, there was a high possibility that
using surface oscillation magic might worsen the tragedy.
"I won't use that!"
Shaking off Isori's hand, Kanon was about to activate her magic.
Just as she took aim at the targets,
—Not only were they shot to pieces, they were also covered in white frost.
"Ah......"
"As expected of Mayumi and Miyuki. We don't even have time to do
anything."

What is this supposed to be? Of course Miyuki and Mayumi will be able to cast magic faster than regular students. They are 10MC. This is not a comparison.

In comparison Kanon is a turtle. However, Tatsuya can't keep up with Lina's speed when she is using Parade, her innate magic.
I have probably posted this somewhere before but it means it's like that:
Flash Cast>Lina's Parade> Tatsuya's innate magic=Lina casting speed in general> Miyuki=Mayumi=Minoru.

Only the first 3 are justifiable. The rest aren't. Basically Tatsuya's Decomposition = Cocytus. Minoru should by simple common sense have a higher cast speed than Mayumi. In the first place Lina's and Miyuki's cast speeds aren't that far apart from each other when using only normal magic. Lina just has the edge in speed and Miyuki has the edge in IS.

Now, about Masaki. During their match in volume 04 there was no clear speed difference between the two, and Tatsuya wasn't handicapped in this department because he was using his NS magic Gram Demolition and he was actually supported by ES, the magic Masaki was using here was Air Bullet, Convergence type magic hence not his specialty. With Rupture he'd obviously be even faster, he stopped Zhou's evasion almost instantly with it. He can defintely keep up with Tatsuya using his specialized magics. While Miyuki, even though very fast needs to hasten her magic with a surprise attack in order to attack before Lina.

It's funny you use this example as Masaki's cast speed in this way when it actually proves the opposite.
First off, Gram Demolition is worse than Dispersion because the mass of psions have a travel time to reach the activation sequence, whereas dispersion doesn't have a travel time. More importantly, with gram demolition you have to shoot at the activation sequences 1 at a time, when with Gram dispersion, you could target all commencing sequences. So if Masaki for instance started 5 Ruptures all over the place, Tatsuya could instantly shut down all of them.

The biggest factor you're ignoring here is that, to even use Gram demolition or Gram dispersion for that matter and have it be effective, you have to have a higher cast speed than the opponent. This is because it is a counter magic. So what happens is that, Tatsuya has to first wait for Masaki to start casting magic, then he analyzes the magic sequence and then he casts magic at it to destroy it. In the first place it is completely impossible without ES, but even with ES, you are actually acting only after the opponent starts casting magic.
So if Masaki for instance had a faster cast speed, than Tatsuya, or even the same, Tatsuya would not be able to use these 2 magics against him like this. Which is what happens with Maya, like I talked about earlier. She actually has either a higher cast speed or a very similar cast speed to Tatsuya, which means he gets hit before he cancels the magic.
If Tatsuya's cast speed was not clearly higher than Masaki's 1st high would have lost that match every time.

I didn't say equal I said rivaling IS, it was mention that they had equal Modern Magic skills however. In this part Minoru was confirmed to be as fast as Mayumi, better at Parade than Lina, better at AOE than Hanzo with Modern magic skills equaling Masaki. As you said, it was not said whose IS is superior so obviously they are in the same ballpark. As I said in my previous post, even if the translation is wrong it doesn't mean that Rupture doesn't kill instantly, it means that it is more difficult to kill instantly with it, Rupture instantaneously vaporizes fluids, the way Minoru used his lightning magic was to pour it down inside them. Considering what Medvih's post the translation is most likely wrong anyway because Lightning magic is Release type, not Dispersion type.

Well, it doesn't say rivaling either. But it should be close enough that there isn't that big of a difference.
We never talked about Rupture not killing instantly. The issue was piercing the data fortification, which is basically just a feat of IS. Rupture is highly lethal, but it is a magic that is very easy to guard against, so you need to have the IS to support it.

It means that Miyuki's full power IS is not enough to dispel Lina's innate magic, it is her specialty. ZI is Miyuki's best CM but it's not Freezing magic or Cocytus, in the end it has no particular type. It was confirmed that both could attack her even at full power however and if Miyuki needs to switch to offense her ZI will obviously loses power.

Again, you have to lose that one track thinking, you are applying standards that don't work on Miyuki. And as I said, Parade and Direct target magic operate differently, that's all it means.
Nothing like that was confirmed. The quote:

Their interference strength was only enough to counteract Miyuki’s.
Mounting a direct attack against Miyuki under her zone would have
been difficult even for these two

Says nothing about it being possible. It doesn't outright deny it, sure. But to say it's confirmed is stupid, because that's not what it does. It casts doubt on the ability of the 2 parties to do so. But direct targeting magic is not the only way to use magic anyway.

Miyuki won easily against Lina not because she was stronger, it's because Lina underestimated her and Miyuki beat her strategically, Lina also had fought previously, her surprise attack is what gave her the edge, Lina didn't use Parade either.

And Miyuki didn't use Cocytus, which is a much bigger factor, since all the magic Miyuki used was AoE. So who cares about Parade.
Miyuki is stronger than Lina, not by a lot, but still, she is stronger. This is indisputable. But she was also able to think ahead of her opponent. The other factors like Lina having fought before would not have changed anything.
If you were to say that outhinking your opponent doesn't count. And combat strategy doesn't count. You would have to say that Tatsuya is winning against people by pure luck. So don't say that, it's a bit silly. These are all tools and strengths of characters.

Just like with Lina's Parade, Rupture is Masaki's innate magic while ZI is nothing of the sort. It's better for her because her MCA is predisposed to AOE like Katsuto while people like Tatsuya, Masaki, Lina and Mayumi are better at direct targeting. Since Masaki is able to overcome even Tatsuya's Gram Demolition with shots of Air Bullets, I don't see how it'd be impossible for him to overcome ZI in combat. Especially when he is better at attack bombardment and is faster. ZI is a top tier CM in the hands by Miyuki but it is far from being as efficient as you claim. I did say that she would most likely be able to stop a single shot of Rupture completely or significantly but only at full defense. And there are other ways to overcome these kinds of CM depending on the magic used and the distance, like with Wind magics for example.

Parade is innate magic but it doesn't target opponents directly. The way magic works in Mahouka is that if Miyuki is able to block the magic once, she is able to block the magic for as long as she has psions to use. The IS requirement does not change. So if you can do it, you can do it, and if you can't you can't. It's very simple like this. But yes, in their duel Masaki would have to find ways to use other kinds of magic. Wind magic is one example, but it's just that without being able to use special magic against Miyuki who is at the very highest level in all aspects of magic, it's just nearly impossible. Lina had the advantage in speed, coupled with incredible MP, so she has a chance. Also, there still isn't anything in the books saying Masaki is faster than Miyuki. Give me a quote saying this, and I will believe you. I have no problem with it, but it has to be true and based on something for you to claim that. Nothing in the books that I can remember even remotely suggests that.

And another thing is this "direct targeting" talent. What is it? Give me some quotes. Where is it said that Miyuki is worse than them? Direct targeting talent sounds like something you just made up. I don't remember anything about this.

[Twi]

Can anyone explain how the engraving magic that Tatsuya used on the cloaks that he gave Miki and his other teammate worked?

[mashingan]

Originally Posted by Zeborg

Prove it, or it's not worth talking about. How can anyone even be "less skilled at direct targeting", that doesn't even make any kind of sense as a concept. This is a joke. Multi targeting is something entirely different, if that's what you're thinking.

I think he meant to say that "Miyuki was less skilled in fine-precision control of high output magic". It because her limiting power was halved for sealing/blocking Tatsuya magic calculation area. Because of that too, it's better to Miyuki just to use magics that don't involve excessive control, that's way it's reversely easier for Miyuki to invoke AoE magics instead of one-by-one target.
Here's the post that contained the Q&A about the seal and Miyuki's limiting power.

Originally Posted by Twi

Can anyone explain how the engraving magic that Tatsuya used on the cloaks that he gave Miki and his other teammate worked?

CMIIW, the engraving magic is type of "very" specialized CAD. Specialized CAD for modern magic usually be able to store to 9 activation sequences. Generalized able to 99, while engraving magic only be able to store one activation sequence.
The users are usually combat magicians or ancient magicians since they don't need the various way to use magic except to defeat the enemy.