Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

That's why I said Lelouch's position is almost as naive as that of Suzaku's.

Actually, I don't think so.

Let's break it down. Lelouch has two goals:

1. He wants to avenge his mother. That's easy, he just need to kill the person responsible the assassination, as well as murder his father along the way for not caring. This can be done if he has enough power, and thus is quite easy.

2. He wants to make a place where his sister can be safe. This is where opinions differ. You see, I DON'T think Lelouch cared about worldwide warfare. What puts his sister in danger isn't a lack of peace; it is the very fact that they are children of a powerful Emperor.

There are several reasons why their genetics puts them at risk, which means there are several independent solutions.
A . If there is a bid for the throne, they would be a problem for the wannabe ruler.

B . People who want to gain favour with the people in the royal family might capture them and use them for their own political bargaining.

C . People who hate Britannia would want them dead.

To solve A, B, and C, Lelouch can either destroy the power of the royal family all together so his genes mean nothing anymore, or take over as the Emperor so no one could touch Nunally. I believe Lulu intends to do the former, but future circumstances might force him to do the latter.

[WanderingKnight]

2. He wants to make a place where his sister can be safe. This is where opinions differ. You see, I DON'T think Lelouch cared about worldwide warfare. What puts his sister in danger isn't a lack of peace; it is the very fact that they are children of a powerful Emperor.

You're right, he gives a damn. I never said otherwise. But the simple thought that the only way to protect his sister is to kill everyone in their way until there's no one else to rise up to the challenge, that's what makes him naive. The idea of means not mattering when it comes to ends, that's what makes him naive. And the opposite also applies to Suzaku. You'll always find naive and fanatic people if you look in the extremes, and the extremes are what Suzaku and Lelouch depict.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

You're right, he gives a damn. I never said otherwise. But the simple thought that the only way to protect his sister is to kill everyone in their way until there's no one else to rise up to the challenge, that's what makes him naive. The idea of means not mattering when it comes to ends, that's what makes him naive. And the opposite also applies to Suzaku. You'll always find naive and fanatic people if you look in the extremes, and the extremes are what Suzaku and Lelouch depict.

He doesn't believe means justify the ends... Lulu believe in the ENDS.

Lulu never actually bother to justify anything he does. That's because he is NOT naive, and thus know what he is doing is not righteous. He isn't doing what he does for justice, so justification is unnecessary.

On the other hand, Suzaku try to play the morality card by complaining about how evil Lulu is. Since he wants to be just, he needs justification he doesn't have.

[Juvyniled]

^you act as if they're going to make a 3rd season.

Hmmm, I seriously don't know how I've done this. While war is the pretty much the only setting for a mecha anime, no series has to be made just because a war exists. I'm just predicting the rationale of people.

For Lelouch, it won't matter whether people justify or condemn his actions. He will act as necessary. However, his actions result in consequences (both positive and negative alike). And that is up for debate. But you're absolutely right, I shouldn't try to judge based on a single possibility (since they are limitless).

[Juvyniled]

A . If there is a bid for the throne, they would be a problem for the wannabe ruler.

Most of the people that know of Lelouch and Nunallys' statuses as the offspring of the emperor, have apparently regarded them as dead. Now if Lelouch vies for power, then that will indeed cause turmoil. However, being "dead," he has done nothing to make himself a target. Lelouch and Nunallys' mother has changed their names for the sole purpose of protecting them. I believe that this in itself rules out the other factors, with the exception of C that the Japanese people are extremely narrow-minded and want Lelouch and Nunally dead just because they are Britannian.

If they are not in the spotlight like the other siblings in the royal family, then being the children of the Emperor does not truly put them in harm's way.

Thus, I'd have to argue that Lelouch believes that the world is not safe for his sister is because he is afraid of the potential threat that his father, the Emperor, poses to the safety and peace of the world.

People start wars, not values, ideals, or beliefs; they are only a front for justifying the existence of wars.

[mangastuff]

The anime makes it quite clearly to me that Lelouch fears the system is eliminating those like Nanaly. So for his 2nd target, what he fight is THE SYSTEM, along way with Britanian empire. Given their identity, in fact they are hiding in danger. The 2 choices are (1) continuing to hide (without knowing when danger comes) or (2) fighting back. In anime clinche, the lesson learnt ALWAYS IS FIGHTING BACK (the producer, the chars, the plots, etc. all for this choice). But i'm not sure it is true for this CG. It is why I like CG: It is - like reality - not clear and easy to just what is the right choice, provided many circumstances and accidents (unlike many other anime where those goody-goody brave moron main chars choose the right way just because it happens to be the right way)

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Most of the people that know of Lelouch and Nunallys' statuses as the offspring of the emperor, have apparently regarded them as dead. Now if Lelouch vies for power, then that will indeed cause turmoil. However, being "dead," he has done nothing to make himself a target. Lelouch and Nunallys' mother has changed their names for the sole purpose of protecting them. I believe that this in itself rules out the other factors, with the exception of C that the Japanese people are extremely narrow-minded and want Lelouch and Nunally dead just because they are Britannian.

Lelouch's also stated that they can't keep hiding with the Ashford like this forever. The longer they keep it up, the more likely they are to be found out.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Lelouch's also stated that they can't keep hiding with the Ashford like this forever. The longer they keep it up, the more likely they are to be found out.

Indeed, we have already seen that the Ashfords have started looking for new political backers; The individual chosen (i.e. Lloyd) could not be trusted to look out for Lelouch and his sister's best interests.

[Varis]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Indeed, we have already seen that the Ashfords have started looking for new political backers; The individual chosen (i.e. Lloyd) could not be trusted to look out for Lelouch and his sister's best interests.

hmm I don't think it will be really about the ability to remain with the ashfords, their ambitions or their abilities to keep lulu and nunnaly safe.
It's a given that it will come out eventually.

This is just another game of succession for nobility. If you think about it, Lulu's goals are not exacly a revelation.

Lulu's mom gave a far too kind impression for her position. Being a king or near him is very dangerous. The assassination attempt could have been a result of showing too much weakness. She protected her kinds with her body but I think she failed to protect them much before that assassination. That may also explain the emperors apathy to her death and doubt on her childrens competence.

Lulu won't make that mistake. He will avenge his mother and so discourage other nobles from seeing him as an easy target. The power he is gathering to this end will force other nobles out to deal with it and so heighten his chance to get a real lead on the murderer.

He does not have to liberate japan to accomplish this, he does not even have to defeat the empire to accomplish his goals.

Of course to ensure nunnalys safety he will have to go beyond revenge. He will have to take the throne for that. Only from there will he have the ability to either crush his enemies or keep them on a short leash.


The price of the power he is gathering is what makes this complicated. He has to cater to CC and probably help out japan to keep the black knights together. After all, nothing is free, even if there is no price tag on it.


Is this moral???? Good question, you can probably argue against it but then it's always easy to argue against violence. I see it as a matter of no choice.
What can he do? Sue the murderer? Order his arrest?
How will be protect his little sister? Pray? Cross your fingers nothing happens?
Thankfully Lelouche goes into this with both eyes open.








Suzaku on the other hand.... he killed his father based on the interpretation of a situation by a 12 year old. He can't even take responsebility for it... he just tries to secretly die while acting like britannia is the best thing to happen since sliced bread.

So how did this work out...

Knive to kill father with - $10

Upgrading to euphy's knight sword - $2000

Cursing Zero for killing civillians while doing your bloodsoaked laundry - Priceless

[WanderingKnight]

Lulu never actually bother to justify anything he does. That's because he is NOT naive, and thus know what he is doing is not righteous. He isn't doing what he does for justice, so justification is unnecessary.

He doesn't need to justify his actions to be naive. However, he IS justifying them, because every human being justifies, in a subjective manner, his or her actions. He's acting based on his desire for revenge and the protection of his sister, so that's justification enough for him.

Then again, I stated that the sole idea of eliminating everyone in their path to safety is naive. And the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to get a hold of his vanity helps, too. He is convinced he can do anything and that no one will stop him--that makes him naive enough for me.

[Anh_Minh]

If he thought "once I've eliminated the emperor, everything will magically fall into place and it'll be fine", he'll be as naive as, say, people who think that all you have to do to build a democracy is topple the dictator of a middle-eastern country, and then its populace will greet your soldiers with candies and flowers.

But I don't think Lulu is that naive. And neither does he think himself invicible, but if you needed that to fight, nobody would ever attempt anything.

[Varis]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

He doesn't need to justify his actions to be naive. However, he IS justifying them, because every human being justifies, in a subjective manner, his or her actions. He's acting based on his desire for revenge and the protection of his sister, so that's justification enough for him.

Then again, I stated that the sole idea of eliminating everyone in their path to safety is naive. And the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to get a hold of his vanity helps, too. He is convinced he can do anything and that no one will stop him--that makes him naive enough for me.

What would you do in his position to keep nunnaly safe?

[WanderingKnight]

What would you do in his position to keep nunnaly safe?

How should I know that? I'm not in his position. I'm merely judging his actions from my comfortable point of view in my PC chair. And I doubt anyone here can do anything more than that.

[Juvyniled]

Originally Posted by Varis

What would you do in his position to keep nunnaly safe?

If you walk into a battlefield, expect to be fired upon. Japan is hostile territory, for anyone really. The Japanese rebels and the empire each have their own agendas, so unfortunately people will be caught in the crossfire. But that's not really what the danger is. The danger, as stated before, is their father, the emperor. He's waging wars and conquering countries, so as a result more violence will ensue. The best thing Lelouch can do is to take down his father, since it is very much so within his power.

But seriously, he could just Geass a whole bunch of people, more like close aides or relatives of the emperor and assassinate him that way. (However, I don't think his objective was to ever really kill his father, which sets him apart from Suzaku).

Suzaku on the other hand.... he killed his father based on the interpretation of a situation by a 12 year old.

Indeed, he was foolish and immature at the age. But it wasn't premeditated; it was more of a spur of the moment. Doing something like that is no doubt going to cause some damage to his mentality. I mean, I feel bad for him considering that he had to choose between his father and his beliefs. It's not as if he's got no conscience and ignores his terrible act; it would be much more hypocritical of him to remorse about it. Face it, it's not going to change, and he's simply going to have to bear the burden on his shoulders. I don't think he's seriously just trying to die, I believe he sees it more of as a personal accomplishment, because he has already repeated to himself (a ridiculous amount of times) that Zero is evil (in his perspective). Yes, it's been said over and over and it is in fact true: Suzaku is the definition of naivete. However, all stubborn people are like that (and don't tell me that you've never been stubborn in your life before); they only see what they want to see. So to the question about whether he is taking responsibility for it or not, he is in fact taking responsibility for it, but it just looks really really really bad to the audience.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

He doesn't need to justify his actions to be naive. However, he IS justifying them, because every human being justifies, in a subjective manner, his or her actions. He's acting based on his desire for revenge and the protection of his sister, so that's justification enough for him.

Then again, I stated that the sole idea of eliminating everyone in their path to safety is naive. And the fact that he doesn't seem to be able to get a hold of his vanity helps, too. He is convinced he can do anything and that no one will stop him--that makes him naive enough for me.

I guess that's the diff. between the two chars. One, Lelouch, thinks he can do anything and the other, Suzaku, is a walking plothole who can ^_^

But seriously, when has he ever said he's going to eliminate everyone in his path? The only quote he's ever made is that he wants a world where Nanali can live in peace but he's never mentioned how he wants to achieve it. If he just thought it would come about, then yeah, I'd consider him to be naive. But considering this is Lulu we're talking about, he's probably got some grandoise melodramatic scheme to do so. Whether it'll succeed or not has yet to be seen, but even so, just cause it fails doesn't mean he's naive or his plan was naive. It's called 'unforseen circumstances'.

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

It's not as if he's got no conscience and ignores his terrible act; it would be much more hypocritical of him to remorse about it.

Huh? So having a conscience means not having remorse over killing your father?? I never knew that.

I actually liked episode 18 where

Spoiler:

Lelouch pretty much bitch-slapped Suzaku in the face with the fact that killing his father was not the 'right means' to go about ending a war and thus the result that Britainnia is in charge and he's one of the grunts for britainnia is a result that was attained from wrong means and thus meaningless, according to his own philosophy.

Sadly, we did not get to see Suzaku actually reconcile this new criticism to his own personal philosophy. Dammit, the guy has like the attention span of a gnat or something. Everytime something comes along to disturb him, he gets shocked and then forgets it like 5 mins later.

[Juvyniled]

So having a conscience means not having remorse over killing your father??

I suppose I should've gone into a little more depth with that. By conscience, I mean having some afterthought about your actions. I'm sure you've seen people kill without mercy and not feeling any shame for doing so. That's a lack of conscience. It does NOT correlate to not having remorse for killing his father. I said that it would be HYPOCRITICAL of him to sit by idly, since many have already pointed out his hypocrisy already.

Love your sarcasm by the way.

[evil|plushie]

Hmm, I think I understand where you're coming from now. But I have to disagree with you on one point. Just cause you've made one severely messed up mistake in the past doesn't mean you have to continue down that path you're already on. Just because you changed paths doesn't mean that you're a hypocrite but that you've already realised what you did was wrong. So in other words, just cause Suzaku killed his father to end the war doesnt mean he has to continue being britainnias dog.

[Juvyniled]

But was it in fact a mistake? We already know the result of his father dying - Japan was conquered and the Prime Minister was deemed a traitor (the heavily favored public opinion). However, what we don't know is the other result. The counter-attack was deemed a do-or-die resistance, so it sounds rather extreme. They would either defeat or be defeated in that sense.

Don't get me wrong, I would agree with you entirely if it were just that simple. However, with no means of acquiring a reputation for himself, it would be much more difficult for him to achieve any kind of peace.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Juvyniled

Don't get me wrong, I would agree with you entirely if it were just that simple. However, with no means of acquiring a reputation for himself, it would be much more difficult for him to achieve any kind of peace.

I presume when you said "him", you mean Suzaku...

Are you sure the reputation Suzaku is acquiring right now is going to help him achieve any kind of peace? Being an obedient soldier who will kill people because he is ordered to, as mentioned in the latest episode?

What kind of reputation do you think he has, anyway? A peace-loving pacifist who wants no wars? Your reputation isn't based on what you say you are, but what others see you as. And for other people, Suzaku is not pro-peace.
If it ever comes a time when he wants everyone to be friends, no one would take his words seriously. You are what you do.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

If it ever comes a time when he wants everyone to be friends, no one would take his words seriously. You are what you do.

except for maybe Lelouch....still. ;_;

it was funny how willing Kallen was to kill Suzaku. when you look back on it, other than maybe saving that woman in episode 2, he hasn't done a single thing that has anything to do with his 'ideals' and his sense of morality. 0_o