Does fansubbing/scanslations hurt sales??

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

I personally dislike to see people saying "insanely overpriced" and using their poverty as an excuse not to pay. Are they aware of the fact that their hobbies are supported on the sacrifice of domestic consumers who bear the insane pricesetting?

I realize that "insanely overpriced" is a rather subjective and relative description of how much it costs to purchase anime. However, you have to realize that the markets here are not like otaku-dominated ones of Japan (hell, no market on Earth is so saturated with so much disposable income in such a specific niche). You must realize that the anime industry "domestically" (in Japan) is nurtured on somewhat unnatural conditions.

Many otaku have large amounts of disposable income, it's just part of typical otaku life, as I understand it (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). They do not have to worry about rent/food/tuition, whereas many of us do. The vast vast majority of this site is composed of full time students, who do not have time to go after a part-time job, nothing less will support this hobby, not any kind of reasonable allowance.

The point is, the market is simply far too different, and the anime companies need to accept that and make adjustments accordingly. I'd say any economist would agree with me that the otaku market is one of a kind.

Also, "poverty" isn't an excuse, it's pretty much the truth. Most people have two choices, fansubs + buying what they really love, or finding a new hobby. The money just isn't there, period. If I had money, I'd buy R2 releases. But I don't, I'm in debt, and am going to continue to be deeper in debt in the near future, as is the case with virtually all college students.

Otaku in Japan also have something we don't, Japanese TV. As I understand it, most of them watch anime on TV and some do record them on DVD. I really wonder how different that is from fansubs. For those who can buy in both East and West, it's expected that you have some idea of what you're getting in an anime. Fansubs for us, TV for them. Also, Japan has an extensive P2P network, not to mention NicoNico Douga, before all the anime was removed. I used to go there for raws all the time. In the end, I really don't see the difference, save one thing, they have the money, we don't. Of course this is completely a generalization, but it's what I think accounts for the difference in sales.

EDIT: Okay, it did seem like that comment was directed at me before you edited it, but it doesn't matter, I didn't take offense anyway.

[Ichihara Asako]

I had typed up a big response to this earlier but accidentally hit the back button on my mouse and lost the post, so gave up, but now I want to reply again.

Firstly, I think once upon a time, fansubs used to be beneficial and just serve to promote anime, but these days with the huge amount of groups and how widely available fansubs are with torrents, IRC, DDL and particularly streaming, fewer people are buying than once did. I -think- anyway. I don't have stats to back that up since retailers tend to cry about every download being a lost sale, when very few downloaders would buy in the firstplace; they'd just go without watching if it wasn't freely available.

And now for what made me decide to reply after losing my initial one;

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

PS: DVDs should also die. Physical media sucks and it's a terribly ineffective way of distributing content.

No thanks. If I'm paying, I want hard, high quality media for my money. DVD quality video will be far larger than current fansubs, and there are more than a few countries across the globe that impose meagre download limits on their users. I love using fansubs as a way to preview a series before I buy it on DVD. I wouldn't have bought the majority of my ~$20,000 collection if I hadn't first seen the movies and shows on TV or fansubbed. Not to mention in the event of a HDD crash or the likes, you lose a lot of money, not just time.

Now, if I did have unlimited downloads (few countries do anymore, more are imposing them than lifting the limits due to increased strain on international backbones) I may lean toward your side of the fence, but for my money I like nice media in pretty boxes that looks great on my shelves. I wouldn't ever consider paying more than $1 an episode for download only, and I'd only pay if it were DVD quality, which means I could only get one series a month on the limitations on my internet.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

The vast vast majority of this site is composed of full time students, who do not have time to go after a part-time job, nothing less will support this hobby, not any kind of reasonable allowance.

Can we please stop assuming things? I used to think that otaku in my country of Slovenia ($22,079 GDP estimate) simply didn't have the income or means to buy anime because I didn't. My family didn't own credit cards, I didn't have an allowance and I couldn't do any part-time work. Later on I learned that most of my anime-fan buddies had disposable income, they just spent it on other trivial things in life, meaning anime were simply not that important to them. There's nothing wrong with that, we all have our own list of priorities, but to say they were poor and couldn't afford anime was a misconception on my part. When you want something bad, you get it even if it requires some sacrifice.

[LiberLibri]

I deleted the words because it would cause emotinal flaming. But spilt water never comes back to the tray again (I should have been more cautious before posting).

Originally Posted by tripperazn

Many otaku have large amounts of disposable income, it's just part of typical otaku life, as I understand it (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). They do not have to worry about rent/food/tuition, whereas many of us do. The vast vast majority of this site is composed of full time students, who do not have time to go after a part-time job, nothing less will support this hobby, not any kind of reasonable allowance.

The point is, the market is simply far too different, and the anime companies need to accept that and make adjustments accordingly. I'd say any economist would agree with me that the otaku market is one of a kind.

Do you think Japanese otakus have hens that lay golden eggs? I don't know whether the standard of disposable income of otakus is higher or lower compared with other sectors of the society, but if they have money, it springs from their labour.

I would be glad if the cost will be allocated equally and equitably to those who have the benefit. Funsubs might promote the international exploitation system, which I hate mostly concerning the subbing matters. But it is not directly relevant to the topic of this thread, so we could stop.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Toua

Can we please stop assuming things? I used to think that otaku in my country of Slovenia ($22,079 GDP estimate) simply didn't have the income or means to buy anime because I didn't. My family didn't own credit cards, I didn't have an allowance and I couldn't do any part-time work. Later on I learned that most of my anime-fan buddies had disposable income, they just spent it on other trivial things in life, meaning anime were simply not that important to them. There's nothing wrong with that, we all have our own list of priorities, but to say they were poor and couldn't afford anime was a misconception on my part. When you want something bad, you get it even if it requires some sacrifice.

I don't see how I can make a point without assuming, we have people all over the world enjoying fansubs with various GDP/capita, occupations, etc. Yes, you and your buddies may be lucky enough to have disposable income, but consider this: to prevent reverse importing and charge a "fair, domestic" price, a 13 episode series will run you something like $250-$300.

My point is NOT "OMG it's expensive, never buy anime". It is that having to buy every series that you watch is simply not feasible and not done by anyone, not even the native otaku of Japan. I advocate buying what you can, which is all anyone can do really, but makes fansubs necessary to preview your purchases, which many people have said.

Originally Posted by LiberLibri

I deleted the words because it would cause emotinal flaming. But spilt water never comes back to the tray again (I should have been more cautious before posting).

Do you think Japanese otakus have hens that lay golden eggs? I don't know whether the standard of disposable income of otakus is higher or lower compared with other sectors of the society, but if they have money, it springs from their labour.

I would be glad if the cost will be allocated equally and equitably to those who have the benefit. Funsubs might promote the international exploitation system, which I hate mostly concerning the subbing matters. But it is not directly relevant to the topic of this thread, so we could stop.

Well, I was never going to flame you in any case, do not worry.

Of course not, Japanese part-time wages are not significantly higher than any other first world nation. My point was that "otaku" is a lifestyle, living under the care of your parents while not in school, taking on a part-time job purely for disposable income, spending a majority of their free time on anime. They really have no other obligations or priorities and can make money for the sake of spending it on anime. Of course they must work like anyone else to earn money, but the proportion of that income that goes to anime is extraordinarily high. The fact that they are living this way is what enables them to work in the first place. That's something that cannot be said for many of us in this forum.

Yes, while that would be the ideal, it's about as feasible in practice as communism.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

My point is NOT "OMG it's expensive, never buy anime". It is that having to buy every series that you watch is simply not feasible and not done by anyone, not even the native otaku of Japan. I advocate buying what you can, which is all anyone can do really, but makes fansubs necessary to preview your purchases, which many people have said.

I will assume () that everyone in this thread agrees with the above, but this is such a common assumption that I tend to forget it can be brought up. I mean, you can't really call people that just leech and never buy problematic, but to say the majority does so because they have financial issues is off the mark. Buying official merchandice (of any kind) is an issue of personal interest and priorities.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Toua

I will assume () that everyone in this thread agrees with the above, but this is such a common assumption that I tend to forget it can be brought up. I mean, you can't really call people that just leech and never buy problematic, but to say the majority does so because they have financial issues is off the mark. Buying official merchandice (of any kind) is an issue of personal interest and priorities.

Well, it is in fact a matter of financial difficulties. Not entirely maybe, I think all of us have other hobbies/priorities to tend to before anime. However, if you gave everyone in this forum say....$1000 right now (think of it as instant disposable income, for those who might not have any). How many would buy something anime related? I would guess the proportion is rather high.

[cyth]

But you don't need $1000 to buy anime, that's the point. It depends what you want to buy, but even $20 is enough to buy some anime. Some people don't even spend that much on this hobby, that's the main issue. If you're having financial difficulties securing $20, then by all means you should be selling your PC and cancelling your Internet subscription, that's the kind of financial mess you're in. So, no, I don't agree there.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Toua

But you don't need $1000 to buy anime, that's the point. It depends what you want to buy, but even $20 is enough to buy some anime. Some people don't even spend that much on this hobby, that's the main issue. If you're having financial difficulties securing $20, then by all means you should be selling your PC and cancelling your Internet subscription, that's the kind of financial mess you're in. So, no, I don't agree there.

Well, yes, that'll buy you the first episode. It's 20 min of entertainment for $30. I was kinda referring to a more substantial amount, not just one DVD, most people tend to buy entire series that they like, not just one DVD here and there. As I said before $300 for 13 episodes is the going rate in Japan and that sets the standard everywhere else, which is part of the problem.

[cyth]

Not really, you can buy your favorite anime movies for $20, 90 minutes of footage, and TV series/box sets go for much less than $300, sorry. Take a look at some of the R1 DVD prices. I got my AIR TV DVD singles for $80 total, a high-profile niche TV series. Anyway, this is getting off-topic, so I'll stop here.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Toua

Not really, you can buy your favorite anime movies for $20, 90 minutes of footage, and TV series/box sets go for much less than $300, sorry. Take a look at some of the R1 DVD prices. I got my AIR TV DVD singles for $80 total, a high-profile niche TV series.

Yeah, see, that was before, now Bandai for example is seeing problems with reverse importing and has set prices equal to Japan. It's probably not $300 for 13, more like $250ish since a DVD is about $33 and there are 7 of them. Check out the True Tears licensed thread, they have it worked out over there. Anime movies are much rarer and generally not as highly regarded as anime, like the Air and Clannad movies for example.

[cyth]

Erm, Bandai Visual has already cancelled their DVD releases of True Tears, Shigofumi and sola, their approach to the American anime market is looked down upon by the majority of DVD buyers (I thought it could've worked but they caved in to all the criticism) and they do not represent major trends of the American anime industry. Do some contemporary reading on the subject first, I beg of you.

[crazysjd89]

(I apologize in advance, because I'm terrible at wording things.)

I think it depends, really.

For example, me, I like to actually own things, so whenever I have enough money, I will buy an anime that I've watched as a fansub, if only because I find it pleasing to own. However, this still doesn't make up for it, because my ratio of unbought dubbed animes that I've seen is still pretty low.

I'm much like others. I'm not in college, but I am currently saving money to get into a college, but I agree with Toua (I think it was him who said it) that people will buy other things before they buy anime, if they are more interested in it, which is what causes a lot of people to just download fansubs and not buy the anime. In my case, sometimes I do this with games. More often I'll buy a game then an anime, and then occasionally I'll buy an anime.

Also, you should consider how many people will buy anime when they consider the dubs inferior, and they think fansubbers make better subtitles. This is moreso the dubbing community shooting themselves in the foot, but if people never got to see Japanese anime, they wouldn't know it was "inferior".

I also wish that the physical media would be less costly, however. This isn't an excuse for me not buying an anime that I've seen fansubbed, but just something I wish. I think if they cut the price of anime DVDs they would probably get more buyers. Plus there are a lot of people who are virtually unaware of subs. There was an Anime Club in my High School. I didn't join it, but I did hear some of their "meetings" while I was in the Library. To them, it seemed that only dubs existed, because I never heard them talk about subbed series, they would always watch dubbed animes and they were obviously only watching animes on Cartoon NEtwork or something, as I would hear them discussing things that people who saw the sub would already know. But like I said, I wasn't in the club, I only overheard a few of their meetings.

My personal opinion is that it probably is giving them a punch in the stomach, but I don't think it's really serious. I don't think it's hurting them extremlly bad. Atleast not "Oh God, we're going bankrupt!" bad, otherwise people would be jumping out of the industry.

[SinsI]

1) Helps sales: nearly free unlimited exposure greatly increases consumer market so it is extremely good.
2) Hurts sales: people spend money on donations, internet connection, hosting and scanlation/fansub selling sites so the amount they have for buying is reduced.

The greatest problem for anime companies is that there's a demand for 0-day subs of ongoing anime series but no legal way of obtaining them. And any product loses value with time.

[tripperazn]

Originally Posted by Toua

Erm, Bandai Visual has already cancelled their DVD releases of True Tears, Shigofumi and sola, their approach to the American anime market is looked down upon by the majority of DVD buyers (I thought it could've worked but they caved in to all the criticism) and they do not represent major trends of the American anime industry. Do some contemporary reading on the subject first, I beg of you.

They weren't cancelled, at least not according to both ANN and their own website. It just mentions "market expectations" and "blu-ray" vaguely as the reasons for "delaying" release.

Anyway, that's totally beside the point. The fact is that you can't reproduce another otaku market anywhere else in the world. Even over there, DVD sales peak at about 40,000. It still stands that fansubs are the equivalent of TV broadcasts over there. Yes, sales are probably lower outside Japan, but there are very few otaku (in the real sense of the word) outside Japan.

[cyth]

A "delayed" release without a new release date is a cancelled release. Experts on matters of PR have already suggested this move was a sort of bail-out tactic.

Anyway, yes, you can create an otaku demographic. If U.S. gamers can have one, so can anime fans.

Eh, we drove this thread completely off topic.

[chison]

20-30+manga free shipping monthly are OK affordable to me now as a student,cinema are affordable,but not animtion's DVD,never one anime or DVD films or games at this aged...(i used to spent all my pocket money on games,i stop,i buy drawing book and magazine for now)

i am not in Japan,i don't get much chance to past by a anime shop very often,so the buying evil inside me stay calm wlth anime...
still ,don't forget figure and side products,there are a thousand things to get addicted into


if ther don't boardcast it on the TV likes japanese ,i don't see that they will get that "decent market",they are just rush into the market that everyone have watched the anime

[Aoie_Emesai]

Originally Posted by tripperazn

I realize that "insanely overpriced" is a rather subjective and relative description of how much it costs to purchase anime. However, you have to realize that the markets here are not like otaku-dominated ones of Japan (hell, no market on Earth is so saturated with so much disposable income in such a specific niche). You must realize that the anime industry "domestically" (in Japan) is nurtured on somewhat unnatural conditions.

Many otaku have large amounts of disposable income, it's just part of typical otaku life, as I understand it (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). They do not have to worry about rent/food/tuition, whereas many of us do. The vast vast majority of this site is composed of full time students, who do not have time to go after a part-time job, nothing less will support this hobby, not any kind of reasonable allowance.

The point is, the market is simply far too different, and the anime companies need to accept that and make adjustments accordingly. I'd say any economist would agree with me that the otaku market is one of a kind.

Also, "poverty" isn't an excuse, it's pretty much the truth. Most people have two choices, fansubs + buying what they really love, or finding a new hobby. The money just isn't there, period. If I had money, I'd buy R2 releases. But I don't, I'm in debt, and am going to continue to be deeper in debt in the near future, as is the case with virtually all college students.

Otaku in Japan also have something we don't, Japanese TV. As I understand it, most of them watch anime on TV and some do record them on DVD. I really wonder how different that is from fansubs. For those who can buy in both East and West, it's expected that you have some idea of what you're getting in an anime. Fansubs for us, TV for them. Also, Japan has an extensive P2P network, not to mention NicoNico Douga, before all the anime was removed. I used to go there for raws all the time. In the end, I really don't see the difference, save one thing, they have the money, we don't. Of course this is completely a generalization, but it's what I think accounts for the difference in sales.

EDIT: Okay, it did seem like that comment was directed at me before you edited it, but it doesn't matter, I didn't take offense anyway.

Very nicely done there, tripperazn and nicely explained. Many of us are full time students with low income who usually have to pay for the insanely priced insurances along with overwhelmingly expensive textbooks ^^. (my Calc book was 175$ >.<)

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Toua

Anyway, yes, you can create an otaku demographic. If U.S. gamers can have one, so can anime fans.

I know gamers and anime fans tend to be linked, but I disagree with this statement.

What tripperazn was getting at about Japanese otakus and disposable income has to do with differences in the society. In Japan it's expected that a parent will take care of the child's education expenses. Practically all of my Japanese teachers mentioned that they took on part-time jobs simply to have even more disposable income (just because they could, because universities in Japan are easy - that's what they said). It isn't terribly looked down upon for a single child to live with their parents, either. In fact, "parasite singles" is a phenomenon that refers to people who are single and continue to live with their parents even as adults. It's recognized as a potentially growing social problem, but the fact that it's so prevalent shows that it's considered at least somewhat acceptable. I've heard that living with one's parents until marriage is somewhat similar in Europe (Egypt and Italy specifically; probably other nations as well).

Now let me tell you how this compares to America. Because America is made up of many different groups of people there is no single expectation, but let's just say that there are many cases where the parents do not cover their child's university expenses. In some cases the child is expected to provide for themselves (and perhaps the family as well) when they're 18 - that's right around when they'd have finished high school. Universities are expensive and student materials are expensive as well, as Aoie_Emesai has pointed out (I paid around $170 for my Calculus book too, don't feel too bad, and I think my Chemistry one topped $200. The nerve of textbook makers...). If you're living at home with your parents when you're in your mid-20's you're liable to be ridiculed by most people because there is a big emphasis on self-reliance in mainstream society.

Are there families in the US who operate similarly to how families in Japan do? Sure, but I very strongly doubt that they're in the majority. Maybe if they were then the US wouldn't be having some of the education issues that it is. The point is to say that what allows the otaku culture to exist in Japan - that sort of safe harbor provided by the parents and society's expectations - doesn't exist in America. It's different.

And to return to your statement about gamers, I think the otaku culture is a bit more involved than the "gamer" culture. Gamers call themselves gamers when they play videogames a few hours a week. Otaku are only really otaku if they're practically living and breathing anime (you know them when you see them).

[cyth]

Right, Japanese conditions are more favorable for the otaku market to live and breath, but that does not mean northwestern cultures have teenagers and young adults with no disposable income. That is why I said buying anime merchandise is a matter or personal priorities, not financial issues (for most). Of course it's easier to buy more with more money, but if your average fan considers anime as a third-rank hobby, how can we expect him to spend anything on it? Quite frankly, we can't.

And I know a few gamers from the U.S. and EU who dedicate several hours a day to playing games, getting involved with community sites like this one, collecting titles and buying expensive gaming equipment. They are gaming otaku, it's as simple as that.

What I'm trying to say is that's it's very easy to blame our lack of financial involvement on market conditions, our economy, our GDP, our culture. In the United States and even more so in Europe, maintaining an obscure hobby like anime always came with a few sacrifices. If you can deny that, great, you're denying the very history of your hobby. The recent GONZO deal is a well-paid investment of those sacrifices and struggles.