Was Destiny a purely black and white show?

[wingdarkness]

^Make no mistakes about it, he is a Mastermind...But the way the show just "out of the blue" confirmed his "Evilness" destroyed the tangibility of his characters' integrity (Thus making it hard to accept his veiled intentions when his intentions IMO weren't insane at all)...There's loads of gray in Gil IMO...With the hugest point of debate being the DESTINY PLAN (A plan that had no immediate threat whatsoever to those he propsed it to--Obviously he knew ORB wouldn't go for the proposal because of the Lacus shananigans)...The way Gil handled the concept of what could stop wars holds more gray than anything I've ever heard from the Clyne faction...

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

^Make no mistakes about it, he is a Mastermind...But the way the show just "out of the blue" confirmed his "Evilness" destroyed the tangibility of his characters' integrity...There's loads of gray in Gil IMO...With the hugest point of debate being the DESTINY PLAN (A plan that had no immediate threat whatsoever to those he propsed it to--Obviously he knew ORB wouldn't go for the proposal because of the Lacus shananigans)...The way Gil handled the concept of what could stop wars holds more gray than anything I've ever heard from the Clyne faction...

The gray of the Clyne Faction...Kira, more like it, is that even though they don't hold the same views as Gilbert Destiny Plan, believing that it's the wrong thing to do, and wants to stop it...they themselves didn't have anything that back their opinion and what will they do instead, since they disagree with DP. Gilbert's methods are backhanded and questionable, but at least he holds a vision, has plans for it, and is willing to walk down deceit and carnage for the future he believes is possible.

Kira and co? Well, they'll just do by as they go. Which is why Kira said he'll be ready for it then unlike his old chair-rocking self, or something when Gilbert questioned the future of the path he chose, because doubtlessly...there will be conflict.

Kira and co. reflects one of SEED's recurring theme of self-purpose. They may know who to fight, what is wrong, but to them? They themselves are questioning what is the truely right thing for them. Kira clearly hates fighting, but is willing to carry that weight. Lacus...well, she doesn't mind not seating the pink throne, she seemed pretty content playing retired housewife/hubby with Kira, but can brace herself to be teh Lacus Clyne when needed to.

[Crusader]

I actually found Gilbert's twist at the end believable, After all he pretty much had most of the world wrapped around his finger by this time, and the only enemies were anyone on the Clyne train to freedom, which he knew about, and he underestimated them (Lacus/Kira) for a second time. I believe he underestimated Kira when he tried to assasinate Ms. Clyne.

It seemed like he had no reason to carry on his facade, if you will, after obliterating the EA's major players or should I the major player. They were his biggest threat/tool after all.

The only gray I admit, would be the depths of his manipulations.

[4Tran]

You guys are all missing the point. "Black and white" isn't about whether the organizations or their goals had any redeeming characteristics. It's about whether the characters in said organizations were sympathetic or not. I wouldn't bother asking about the organizations because it's obvious that most of the villainous organizations in the Gundam TV shows were evil through and through, and the good guys' organization were the white knights.

Also, please note that sympathetic has nothing to do with whether you like the character or not. It's quite possible to empathize with someone even if you hate his guts.

[Crusader]

Stellar, I could be sympathetic to. I mean she was shamelessly used by the Alliance and her character was showed to have some conflictions.

Shin started out sympathetic, but slowly that gave way. I could have been sympathetic to him after stellars death, but thier was no believable substance in that relationship.

Meer I can be sympathetic to as well, becuase she wanted to help people, but she was used and shot away like yesterday's enemy grunt soldier.

Cagalli i could definintly sympathize with, i mean she had to balance her relationship with Athrun, and then face the Seirens over Orb. If anything I think I sympathize with her more than anyone, unlike the Extendeds her problems were brainwashed away and she had to confront all of them.

Most of the chracters weren't focused on a lot so it's hard to really sympathize with a majority.

[wingdarkness]

@Crusader - I disagree, Gil's "evilness" was shown well before the Djbril "BIG LASER" moment (I'm talking in the sense of progressive presentation--There was no feel to it IMO that said "we've been hiding this all series" as it was "Oh damn only 13 eps left he's gotta be evil now"--That's the vibe it gave me and pi$$ed me off greatly)...The flashbacks of him losing his destiny with Talia shows how the balance of his black and white were shaken...

@Nightengale - As you know, it's not necessarily Kira or Clyne's message that irks me as much as their execution of this (i.e. Presentation).. and how it was accomplished (Flawlessly in many instances)...Purley avoiding emotional substance I have no doubt they thought they did what they had to do with Lacus' assassination attempt as the impetus...It's just their self-righteousness based on little more than speculation or a "feeling" makes their methods far less gray in comparison...Just a hint of "Are we doing the right thing" then just going full-blast onto the battlefield (regardless of the consequences they are ultimately trying to end), points at a self-centered nature...Hard to swallow I know when we are talking about preventing death, but still who's right is it to make those who are willing to fight (Like a Baba for instance) little more than discarded fodder in the way of "My Rightness"??

SEED's theme of self-purpose gets skewed when the victors' strength and expectation of said strength (To succeed in all phases despite odds or coherency) is so uneven in results...And I don't totally dismiss ZAFT when I say this, but ZAFT has a coherent progression in the show to somehow allow it...


@4tran - No disrespect, but it's not like your first post had much direction to it (That's why I initially didn't post)...You failed to really frame precisely what you wanted discussed..With that said, now I know better...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by NeonZ

Why do you have to distort everything I write before actually writing an answer?

No, characters aren't defined by bgm, but bgm is part of the overall presentation of an anime.

So what? A character is defined by his actions and his thought processes, not the by the music playing in the background.

By the way, I didn't distort your argument, I ridiculed it. I think that argument about heroic music vs. demonic music is well deserving of ridicule.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

"Are we doing the right thing"

The full question was "Are we doing the right thing, or should we die for Durandal's dreams?" The answer is obvious enough that it doesn't need much emphasis. Besides, we saw the very moment when they decided to commit themselves to opposing Durandal.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

@4tran - No disrespect, but it's not like your first post had much direction to it (That's why I intially didn't post)...You failed to really frame precisely what you wanted discussed..With that said, now I know better...

In retrospect, I could have framed the OP a little better, but it's fairly obvious given that all of both NeonZ and my statements were concerning the character. Moreover, all of the initial posts seemed to pick up on it as well. It's just recent posts which were getting sidetracked into talking about the organizations.

[wingdarkness]

@4tran - Sorry, since I really didn't get what you wanted I didn't really read you and NeonZ debate...It was Tak and VCV's argument that sparked me to comment...

The full question was "Are we doing the right thing, or should we die for Durandal's dreams?" The answer is obvious enough that it doesn't need much emphasis. Besides, we saw the very moment when they decided to commit themselves to opposing Durandal.

Perhaps in theory, but I was referring to the many times Kira asked this before being sure of any culpability on Gil's part (i.e. after talking to Athrun in eps 24&25--what logically should have tempered their thinking a bit, or after ep 28 to Todaka's crew, or to Murrue before the Destroy fight)... "First you decide, then just do it..." (Lacus) That statement is empty as hell for the sake of just being forthwright...Honestly they half-a$$ed on that statement anyway...They really didn't commit to anything tangible until after the LOGOS speech by Gil, and the red-scribble on a notebook DiCosta found was the unifying proof (I will never know why)...

[D-KLAC]

is this some kind of insult of gs by the 00?!

if that is i'm so going unleash gs-madness on those anti-gs!!!

[Demongod86]

About Lacus and Co.: whether or not you're doing the right thing doesn't matter when

A) Some dipsticks tried to kill Lacus
B) Some other dipsticks tried to thx the Archangel
C) Some dumb noob came close to GGing Kira when Kira was half-assing it.

I mean when you have 3 instances of people trying to kill you...

STOP THE DAMN CONTEMPLATING. SHOOT FIRST. ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

Durandall was trying to kill them. So whaddaya do when someone tries to kill you? Start asking questions and philosophize? Or whip out some godly gundams and clean house? And once there isn't a threat of a bullet going through your skull, or a WTFLAZOR incinerating you, then you can settle down and play politics.

Come on people...common sense at work here!

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You guys are all missing the point. "Black and white" isn't about whether the organizations or their goals had any redeeming characteristics. It's about whether the characters in said organizations were sympathetic or not.

in Destiny it's just one organization with no fault and being all spotless white from top to bottom and anything and everything against them being all black. That's quite clearly "Black and White".

I wouldn't bother asking about the organizations because it's obvious that most of the villainous organizations in the Gundam TV shows were evil through and through, and the good guys' organization were the white knights.

I seems you have watched different Gundam TV shows from the rest of us.

Gundam - good guys organization = EF = corrupt bureaucrats, not white knights.
Zeta and ZZ - good guys organization = AEUG = sponsored by AE = merchants of death, not white knights
V - good guys organization = LM = under EF = some dickheads, not white knights
G - villainous organization = under Master of Aisa, not evil through and through
W - villanous organization = under Treize and Zechs, not evil through and through
X - hard to tell, since in the end it's one ship vs. 2 guys.
Turn A - no villanous organization or good guys organization.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

Perhaps in theory, but I was referring to the many times Kira asked this before being sure of any culpability on Gil's part (i.e. after talking to Athrun in eps 24&25--what logically should have tempered their thinking a bit, or after ep 28 to Todaka's crew, or to Murrue before the Destroy fight)...

Here's the thing: it's Kira who was uncertain about Durandal's role. He knew nothing about the Chairman of PLANT, perhaps aside from PLANT's humanitarian work, so it's sort of natural to not jump to conclusions. However, given the evidence, it looked like Durandal was certainly the culprit. Lacus, on the other hand, seemed to be suspicious of Durandal almost from the beginning. Once she could show that Durandal was up to something sinister, there isn't much room for doubt. Moreover, it became a question of life and death, so doubts are sort of irrelevant in any case.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

"First you decide, then just do it..." (Lacus) That statement is empty as hell for the sake of just being forthwright...Honestly they half-a$$ed on that statement anyway...

You know, I originally thought the same thing. However, on reflection, this is what she meant:
1. Figure out what your true goal is.
2. Determine what actions you need to perform in order accomplish your goal.
3. When you commit to those actions, commit to them all the way.

Remember that she said it to Cagalli as she was moping around, trying to figure out how she could extract the Orb fleet from the war. It's effectively a rebuke that Cagalli was doing things the wrong way. It also indicates that Lacus already knew what she would have to do.

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

They really didn't commit to anything tangible until after the LOGOS speech by Gil, and the red-scribble on a notebook DiCosta found was the unifying proof (I will never know why)...

Correction: Archangel didn't commit themselves against Durandal until then. Lacus committed herself in episode 26. They are not one and the same.

Originally Posted by hipeach

in Destiny it's just one organization with no fault and being all spotless white from top to bottom and anything and everything against them being all black. That's quite clearly "Black and White".

Again: "the good guys' organization were the white knights". I'm not seeing much of an argument here.

Originally Posted by hipeach

Gundam - good guys organization = EF = corrupt bureaucrats, not white knights.

Nope, the EF were trying to stop the genocidal Zeons. You don't get much whiter than that. It's the leaders who may have been corrupt. Moreover, most of the arguments for "Federation = corrupt and useless" are found in works that postdate Mobile Suit Gundam.

Originally Posted by hipeach

Zeta and ZZ - good guys organization = AEUG = sponsored by AE = merchants of death, not white knights

Who cares who was giving them money. As I said earlier "a character is defined by his actions and his thought processes, not the by the music playing in the background". The same thing goes for organizations as well. One may hate Bill Gates, but it's stupid to extend that hate to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation

Originally Posted by hipeach

V - good guys organization = LM = under EF = some dickheads, not white knights

The League Militaire were separate from the Federation, and the reason why the Federation in Victory were jerks was because of their inaction. Obviously, that doesn't apply here.

Originally Posted by hipeach

G - villainous organization = under Master of Aisa, not evil through and through

That's what the qualifier "most" means. In general, I don't talk about G Gundam except to contrast it with other shows.

Originally Posted by hipeach

W - villanous organization = under Treize and Zechs, not evil through and through

Actually, I'd say that they were.

Originally Posted by hipeach

X - hard to tell, since in the end it's one ship vs. 2 guys.

Freeden counts as an organization in every meaningful way.

Originally Posted by hipeach

Turn A - no villanous organization or good guys organization.

While Gym Ghingnham's group doesn't have a name to my knowledge, they definitely count as the bad guys.
Obviously, Loran and his group would be the good guys. Organizations don't have to have formal names, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Again: "the good guys' organization were the white knights". I'm not seeing much of an argument here.

they are not white knights, they are pure white spotless gods, more so than even those good guy's organizations in super robot genre.

Nope, the EF were trying to stop the genocidal Zeons. You don't get much whiter than that. It's the leaders who may have been corrupt. Moreover, most of the arguments for "Federation = corrupt and useless" are found in works that postdate Mobile Suit Gundam.

You get whiter when you have completely righteous self-less organiztion devoid of any mistakes or errors from top to bottom. And the EF did not fight Zeon for people or some grand good cause, it fights for its own power and control over the colonies, very realistic and materialistic goals.

Who cares who was giving them money. As I said earlier "a character is defined by his actions and his thought processes, not the by the music playing in the background". The same thing goes for organizations as well. One may hate Bill Gates, but it's stupid to extend that hate to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation

If the purpose of Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation serves as part of a mean to get more money for MS and the Gates and to snuff out the Open Software Society, then it's not a white knight organization.

The League Militaire were separate from the Federation, and the reason why the Federation in Victory were jerks was because of their inaction. Obviously, that doesn't apply here.

They obey the stupid cease fire orders from the higher ups, so that does apply here.

Actually, I'd say that they were.

I'd say they were not. They were not portrayed as anything close to being really evil in the show. Like you said, your personal hatred or emotional judgement of the characters should not apply here. But then Wing did fail in its story-telling too, though not as much as Destiny.

Freeden counts as an organization in every meaningful way.

So the two brothers count as an organization for you? And Freeden is at best just a freelancing force.

While Gym Ghingnham's group doesn't have a name to my knowledge, they definitely count as the bad guys.
Obviously, Loran and his group would be the good guys. Organizations don't have to have formal names, so that shouldn't be an issue.

They are not black and white organizations, and the organizations in Turn A interact and switch sides and people and merge and diverge much more complicated than just labelling them "white knights" or "through and through evil" organizations.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hipeach

You get whiter when you have completely righteous self-less organiztion devoid of any mistakes or errors from top to bottom. And the EF did not fight Zeon for people or some grand good cause, it fights for its own power and control over the colonies, very realistic and materialistic goals.

You're attributing far too much to motive. Just because one may have practical reasons to do something, that doesn't mean that it isn't done for a good cause as well. The Federation was fighting for its survival and the survival of their citizens - it really doesn't get more white knight than that.

Besides, what organization are you referring to? The only truly selfless organization in Gundam that I can think of are the Preventers, and they're hardly free of errors.

Originally Posted by hipeach

If the purpose of Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation serves as part of a mean to get more money for MS and the Gates and to snuff out the Open Software Society, then it's not a white knight organization.

Ah, so you're reduced to making stupid assertions then. No wonder your arguments are so weak. Please note that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation effectively has nothing to do with Microsoft.

Originally Posted by hipeach

They obey the stupid cease fire orders from the higher ups, so that does apply here.

Deciding to obey a negotiated ceasefire can stem from more than blindly following orders. In this case, Zanscare more or less "surrendered", and it's bad form to attack someone who had surrendered. Besides, the League Militaire was getting Federation aid; and if they violated the ceasefire, then they'd lose that aid. In any case, as I said earlier, the one thing that the Federation in Victory could be blamed for was inaction. Given that the League Militaire was hardly inactive, I still don't see the reasoning behind your argument.

Originally Posted by hipeach

I'd say they were not. They were not portrayed as anything close to being really evil in the show. Like you said, your personal hatred or emotional judgement of the characters should not apply here. But then Wing did fail in its story-telling too, though not as much as Destiny.

It's true that my feelings about the characters shouldn't matter. However, Zechs was trying to drop a big space station that would kill a large portion of the world's population, and Treize was going through his insane plan of killing so many people that nobody would want to fight anymore. Both these actions are very much villainous (Zechs far more so than Treize, but there you have it).

Originally Posted by hipeach

So the two brothers count as an organization for you? And Freeden is at best just a freelancing force.

Please look up what the definition of an organization is and get back to me.

Originally Posted by hipeach

They are not black and white organizations, and the organizations in Turn A interact and switch sides and people and merge and diverge much more complicated than just labelling them "white knights" or "through and through evil" organizations.

Sure they are. Gym was quite happy to wreak death and destruction, and the good guys were trying to stop him. There's never any indication that Gym might actually be the good guy or something like that. Moreover, the good guys never had to do anything repugnant. It's not really all that complicated.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by wingdarkness

@Crusader - I disagree, Gil's "evilness" was shown well before the Djbril "BIG LASER" moment (I'm talking in the sense of progressive presentation--There was no feel to it IMO that said "we've been hiding this all series" as it was "Oh damn only 13 eps left he's gotta be evil now"--That's the vibe it gave me and pi$$ed me off greatly)...The flashbacks of him losing his destiny with Talia shows how the balance of his black and white were shaken...

I never said it was hidden, In my first post I said that they were subtle with thier hints. I mean we never see him scheming about Junius Seven, we really only see him scheming once with Rey over Athrun.

We do see manipulation of ZAFT through his misuse of Meer, and lets not forget dear Athrun, whom he manipulated of course his words were strong. Now lets look at his manipulation of the Minerva crew. He pretty much gives his spin on LOGOS to them early in the series, and he allows shin to get away from punishment. He used Rey as a spy, but as a tool for manipulating Shin to his whim.

EA uses Destroy, which he knows about, but said nothing to anyone and benefits from it's use. Now he can purse LOGOS and manipulate some of the Alliance to is cause. Djibril uses Reqium targeting the plant council basically, but wow Gil isn't there he's somewhere else waiting and expecting apparently. This once again works to his advantage.

We do see insight into his dramatic utopian views via flashbacks. He saw what he wanted, what he thought best for everyone else namely himself.
Which brings me to his conversation with old reliable yamato. He pretty much admitted that his idea was right, becuase he thought it was. The means justify his end. Same Gil we saw throughtout the series. After all he don't have to hide his thoughts since he was expecting to kill the ultimate coordinator. If that was him in the Astray manga talking to Canard then it's been pretty consistent with his chracter.

[hipeach]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You're attributing far too much to motive. Just because one may have practical reasons to do something, that doesn't mean that it isn't done for a good cause as well. The Federation was fighting for its survival and the survival of their citizens - it really doesn't get more white knight than that.

Nope, the EF was actually surrendering to Zeon until it saw a chance of getting back their power and control. there's nothing "white knight" about that.

Ah, so you're reduced to making stupid assertions then. No wonder your arguments are so weak. Please note that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation effectively has nothing to do with Microsoft.

So you are reduced to making stupid assertions and flaming others then. No wonder your arguments are so weak. It shows your mentioning of Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation effectively has nothing to do with Gundam shows.

Deciding to obey a negotiated ceasefire can stem from more than blindly following orders. In this case, Zanscare more or less "surrendered", and it's bad form to attack someone who had surrendered.

And everyone can see their "surrendering" is just a lie.

It's true that my feelings about the characters shouldn't matter. However, Zechs was trying to drop a big space station that would kill a large portion of the world's population, and Treize was going through his insane plan of killing so many people that nobody would want to fight anymore. Both these actions are very much villainous (Zechs far more so than Treize, but there you have it).

The Preventer idea is also insane. Gundam Wing is full of insane ideas. The fact is that the show doesn't portray them as completely evil. But then the show failed in its story telling department like 0083 and Destiny, just that Destiny failed the most.

Please look up what the definition of an organization is and get back to me.

Please look up what the definition of an organization is and watch Gundam X and get back to me.

Sure they are. Gym was quite happy to wreak death and destruction, and the good guys were trying to stop him. There's never any indication that Gym might actually be the good guy or something like that. Moreover, the good guys never had to do anything repugnant. It's not really all that complicated.

It's moon people vs. earth people in Turn A, there are some fanatics here and there, and that's exactly why the organizations are complicated and not clear Black and White.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hipeach

Nope, the EF was actually surrendering to Zeon until it saw a chance of getting back their power and control. there's nothing "white knight" about that.

In the end, they were still fighting for their survival and their people. What they planned to do in between isn't really that important.

Originally Posted by hipeach

So you are reduced to making stupid assertions and flaming others then. No wonder your arguments are so weak. It shows your mentioning of Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation effectively has nothing to do with Gundam shows.

Please read why I brought up the Foundation, "One may hate Bill Gates, but it's stupid to extend that hate to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation". It's used to illustrated a principle: that an organization should be based on what it does, not by whether you like the person in charge or not. If you assert that I'm incorrect, then prove it.

Here's a hint, when someone says "saying X is stupid". If you want to claim X, then you should first show why saying X is not stupid. Otherwise, it just makes your argument look weak; as if there's no substance to back up your claim. And trying to throw my rhetoric back at me doesn't really work until you figure out how I'm using it.

By the way, which of my statements do you claim is "stupid"?

Originally Posted by hipeach

And everyone can see their "surrendering" is just a lie.

True. But continuing the attack against Zanscare would still have been to the League Militaire's disadvantage at the time. Their deciding to abide by the ceasefire does not lend their actions to any sort of ambiguity.

Originally Posted by hipeach

Please look up what the definition of an organization is and watch Gundam X and get back to me.

Sigh, you might want to put some effort into it.

Organization - an organized body of people with a particular purpose, e.g. a business.

Hence a group of pirates, mercenaries, and yes - scavengers all count as organizations. Heck, a Boy Scout troop would count as one as well.

Originally Posted by hipeach

It's moon people vs. earth people in Turn A, there are some fanatics here and there, and that's exactly why the organizations are complicated and not clear Black and White.

That's how it started, but that's not how it ended. It's partly why I'm not all that fond of Turn A's ending.


Now, can you quit it with the organizations, and start talking about the characters?

[coba]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

About Lacus and Co.: whether or not you're doing the right thing doesn't matter when

A) Some dipsticks tried to kill Lacus
B) Some other dipsticks tried to thx the Archangel
C) Some dumb noob came close to GGing Kira when Kira was half-assing it.

I mean when you have 3 instances of people trying to kill you...

STOP THE DAMN CONTEMPLATING. SHOOT FIRST. ASK QUESTIONS LATER.

Durandall was trying to kill them. So whaddaya do when someone tries to kill you? Start asking questions and philosophize? Or whip out some godly gundams and clean house? And once there isn't a threat of a bullet going through your skull, or a WTFLAZOR incinerating you, then you can settle down and play politics.

Come on people...common sense at work here!

1) For A, it there any proof that Dullindal is the one who ordered the attack ? As the audience we don't know. Additionally, even AA can't show the proof that the assasins are part of ZAFT since they blow up their MS to pieces.
2) For point B) and C), AA is the one who starts all the things for kidnapping head of Orb to attacking ZAFT's flag ship. Also who is the one who steal the shuttle and destroy the ZAFT base first? And all of this stuff happens before ep 34.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by coba

1) For A, it there any proof that Dullindal is the one who ordered the attack ? As the audience we don't know. Additionally, even AA can't show the proof that the assasins are part of ZAFT since they blow up their MS to pieces.

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that not only was Durandal behind the assassination attempt, but no one else could/would have been responsible. Moreover, this was confirmed by the Destiny creative staff. This isn't the thread for this argument, so if you like, I could rehash it in the old thread.

Originally Posted by coba

2) For point B) and C), AA is the one who starts all the things for kidnapping head of Orb to attacking ZAFT's flag ship. Also who is the one who steal the shuttle and destroy the ZAFT base first? And all of this stuff happens before ep 34.

1. It's not a kidnapping if the "kidnapped" person goes along willingly. Note that Cagalli could have left if she wanted to.
2. Minerva isn't ZAFT's flag ship (this doesn't mean what you think it means), and Archangel was perfectly within their rights to sink it if they wanted to.
3. Stealing the ZAFT shuttle was only possible because Durandal tried to steal Lacus' identity and authority. Kira only trashed the base because they fired on Lacus. If there's any blame to apportion, it goes to Durandal.

By the way, most of these points will engender discussions that would probably fit better in different threads.

[coba]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that not only was Durandal behind the assassination attempt, but no one else could/would have been responsible. Moreover, this was confirmed by the Destiny creative staff. This isn't the thread for this argument, so if you like, I could rehash it in the old thread.

I won't argue with you but as long as AA doesn't have any proof that Dullindal is the one behind Lacus's attack, they don't have any reason to justify their next acts including attaking Minerva without any clear reason/declaration. I will give you an example in the real world: You know that a lot of nations support US coallisions in the Gulf War I. Why ? Because they can proved that Iraq did something wrong (invading Kuwait). Only few nation support US in the Gulf War II, in fact, most nations condemn US. Why ? Because they can't prove thei reasoning that Saddam is related to Al Qaeda.
That's the reason why I praise all those assasins who kill themselves. Also which Destiny staff claimed that Dullindal is in fact involved in the assasination. I remeber that a staff explained about Terminal, etc, but no one claimed that.

1. It's not a kidnapping if the "kidnapped" person goes along willingly. Note that Cagalli could have left if she wanted to.

Well if that's the case, then how come Cagalli doesn't contact anyone in Orb's government. With Cagalli's lack of communication, AA is definitely confirmed as a renegade ship and thus, attacked by Orb in ep 23. If you don't believe me, even other countries like ZAFT know about the "kidnapping" incident. If it is not "kidnapping", Cagalli should deny that right away.

2. Minerva isn't ZAFT's flag ship (this doesn't mean what you think it means), and Archangel was perfectly within their rights to sink it if they wanted to.

I know that Gondwana is the official flag ship. I like to use a term of flag ship since it represents the fact that Minerva is their main battle ship while Godwana is the main carrier. Also, I don't see any reason why AA has rights to attack Minerva. Minerva never initiate any attack agist AA in their first meeeting (in ep 2). Freedom is the one who shoots Minerva's bowgun first and cause unnecessary casulaties. Also, I am pretty sure that AA never declares war against ZAFT. It is like as if someone hit you in the middle of the road without aby reason whatsoever.

3) Stealing the ZAFT shuttle was only possible because Durandal tried to steal Lacus' identity and authority. Kira only trashed the base because they fired on Lacus. If there's any blame to apportion, it goes to Durandal.

So, if they are a good guy and a good civilian, then they should act accordingly by giving a proof or any other stuff. Are you telling me that if someone stole your thing then it meant that you are allowed to steal somethin else from other ?

p.s: I can't find any other thread that is suitable for this discussion.