Macross Delta - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[CriiGV]

Spoiler for Freyja:

Can I just say, I'm extremely disappointed (irritated?) with the way Freyja is getting constantly shot down with problem after problem. I get that it's part of developing her and making her grow but come on! The poor girl can't even catch a break.

She's already going to die at 30.
Is viewed as a traitor by her planet.
Was suspected as a spy by the people she was fighting to protect.
Got constantly questioned if she was really fit to be a Walkure and her determination.
The guy she likes turned out to be the son of the guy who nuked her planet.
Got controlled by the protoculture ruins and screwed Hayate over as well.
Is feeling guilty for something that isn't even her fault.
Now she's told her songs are a weapon and that she's basically been hurting/killing Hayate and others in the process.
Her love for songs was crushed because "songs are a weapon and evil".
And to top it off she's being set up as this "too good for this world sacrificial lamb" who will end up giving up her life in order to save everyone else.

I'm just so over it and frustrated. Why can't she just catch a break. It's like she can't be happy and content for an episode before something else has to come up and throw her to the bottom of the hole again.

I'd be more ok with this if the other MC's were also provided with the same amount of problems and hurdles. Sure Hayate has some things as well, but it's not the same amount as Freyja. And Mirage...oh god don't even get me started on Mirage.

Anyway, I guess that's just plot and stuff so I can't complain.

But I guess it speaks well of Freyja's development if viewers are capable of sympathizing for her and feeling her pain. Idk, sorry. I'm just going to go and drink some margaritas now to forget my pain.

[Thousand Mistress]

Spoiler for spoiluh:

Truth about Mikumo finally revealed. An android created by protoculture - it made sense how her abilities on singing are slowly detoriating. Because she reached her limit.

Also the thing on Frejya and Var from last episode were true. The Walkure songs were the ones affecting/spreading Var, especially when it's hugely amplified. Freyja on the edge now after she's told her songs kill/destroy people and that the songs she loved to sing are weapons.

So Vajra = Var?

I am curious at what the doctor was going to say to Keith but was stopped because soldiers were there, lol.

Also, the ED song used this EP was 風は予告なく吹く
Part of the new released (or rather upcoming) OP2/ED2 album.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Spoiler for For Mirage...:

I don't know if I have any hope for her anymore, as a character or romantic interest because right now, she's little help for the plot of the series itself (who even Ranka had a plus on). I'll keep hoping she achieve something but I doubt it'll be Hayate, and if it is, it'd be coming out of nowhere on his side especially.

Spoiler:

The thing is, if Mirage makes any progress anywhere else it will be even more out-of-nowhere. Over the course of the series the time and focus devoted to Mirage alone is incredibly scant compared to that devoted to Mirage's relationship with Hayate or Freya (and even that is scant compared to the attention given to almost any other significant character in the series.) At this point, unless they give her at least two to three episodes where she is the centerpiece character practically anything that happens with her will come off as an ass-pull, and they probably don't have the time to do that much with her if they want to resolve any other character arcs.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Thousand Mistress

Spoiler for spoiluh:

Truth about Mikumo finally revealed. An android created by protoculture - it made sense how her abilities on singing are slowly detoriating. Because she reached her limit.

Also the thing on Frejya and Var from last episode were true. The Walkure songs were the ones affecting/spreading Var, especially when it's hugely amplified. Freyja on the edge now after she's told her songs kill/destroy people and that the songs she loved to sing are weapons.

So Vajra = Var?

I am curious at what the doctor was going to say to Keith but was stopped because soldiers were there, lol.

Also, the ED song used this EP was 風は予告なく吹く
Part of the new released (or rather upcoming) OP2/ED2 album.

Still questionable about Mikumo, don't forget it's from Berger's POV, it wouldn't surprise me if it's just some speculation from his group and we'll get the actual truth in ep 24-25.

[Diluc]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Spoiler for Freyja:

Can I just say, I'm extremely disappointed (irritated?) with the way Freyja is getting constantly shot down with problem after problem. I get that it's part of developing her and making her grow but come on! The poor girl can't even catch a break.

She's already going to die at 30.
Is viewed as a traitor by her planet.
Was suspected as a spy by the people she was fighting to protect.
Got constantly questioned if she was really fit to be a Walkure and her determination.
The guy she likes turned out to be the son of the guy who nuked her planet.
Got controlled by the protoculture ruins and screwed Hayate over as well.
Is feeling guilty for something that isn't even her fault.
Now she's told her songs are a weapon and that she's basically been hurting/killing Hayate and others in the process.
Her love for songs was crushed because "songs are a weapon and evil".
And to top it off she's being set up as this "too good for this world sacrificial lamb" who will end up giving up her life in order to save everyone else.

I'm just so over it and frustrated. Why can't she just catch a break. It's like she can't be happy and content for an episode before something else has to come up and throw her to the bottom of the hole again.

I'd be more ok with this if the other MC's were also provided with the same amount of problems and hurdles. Sure Hayate has some things as well, but it's not the same amount as Freyja. And Mirage...oh god don't even get me started on Mirage.

Anyway, I guess that's just plot and stuff so I can't complain.

But I guess it speaks well of Freyja's development if viewers are capable of sympathizing for her and feeling her pain. Idk, sorry. I'm just going to go and drink some margaritas now to forget my pain.

Spoiler for Freyja:

This is truly Kawamori, give desperation to his heroines
I still remember how he suffered the hell Ranka and Sheryl in frontier.
But this is why interesting Freyja now lost her smile, her motivation, her love
she afraid to near with Hayate and she is being shaken with the truth of music she loved so much not to mention her sleeping idol Mikumo we don't know what will she be when she awaken, she might will become enemy when Mikumo awaken
This is truly interesting episode then at the end of episode Freyja will overcome her despair and reach her hope.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Freyja gets all the problems, and Mirage gets nothing.

In real life it is a good thing that you have no problems to resolve. But in a piece of entertainment fiction it is borderline a matter of life and death that a character get problems to solve.

Freyia is only going to become even more prominent and loved, once we watch her grow stronger from her new trials. I really, really don't see why anyone who is a fan of hers would have a problem with that.

[CriiGV]

Originally Posted by Roxis

Spoiler for Freyja:

This is truly Kawamori, give desperation to his heroines
I still remember how he suffered the hell Ranka and Sheryl in frontier.
But this is why interesting Freyja now lost her smile, her motivation, her love
she afraid to near with Hayate and she is being shaken with the truth of music she loved so much not to mention her sleeping idol Mikumo we don't know what will she be when she awaken, she might will become enemy when Mikumo awaken
This is truly interesting episode then at the end of episode Freyja will overcome her despair and reach her hope.

Spoiler for my hoina:

Yeah, I know. It's necessary to move the story forward and have Freyja come out stronger than ever before. Anyway, we've got 7 more episodes to go so I estimate about 4 more problems that Freyja will be shot down with and have to overcome before the finale. And then at the end she'll sacrifice herself for some bs reason and have a smile on her face while she's dying.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Freyja gets all the problems, and Mirage gets nothing.

In real life it is a good thing that you have no problems to resolve. But in a piece of entertainment fiction it is borderline a matter of life and death that a character get problems to solve.

Freyia is only going to become even more prominent and loved, once we watch her grow stronger from her new trials. I really, really don't see why anyone who is a fan of hers would have a problem with that.

Yeah, I know. I'm just really frustrated and sad right now. I just want her to stop suffering and be happy.

Ultimately I know it's for her own good.

[Thess]

LMAO. That reveal.

Spoiler for pff:

With all music in Macross not being different from Var-singing Heinz: A weapon designed by protoculture. Middle Eastern Guy put Sheryl, Minmay, Ranka and Basara on the same level as Sharon Apple. This more or less confirms my suspicion of Minmay's song being no mere cultural shock when DYRL had Kawamori throwing the line about Zent's 'genes' reacting to her and DYRL song. It's kind of ruining the tv series, but looks like it's all genetic and fold stuff now. Of course this is just to make Freyja (and other Walkure, but mostly Freyja and maybe Mikumo, when she's awoke: most Walkure have lives outside their singing except Mikumo and Freyja who live to sing in general) angst about wielding weapons when they are pacifists, and would inevitably be solved with a UTA WA (INSERT HERE). So that's why there's emphasis on what is song for each of them. Meanwhile, Freyja's arc moves toward music dilemma and thus a crisis of identity which might tie with Mikumo depending how she'll awake.

Mirage got more lines but is all about her feelings for Hayate which makes me think she'll romantically triumph and get no other development but that. While Freyja's arc is far more tied to Mikumo and music. At least, IMO, because Hayate compared Mirage to his mom, that's a done deal with Kawamori when two of his protagonists, Alto and Amata, ended up with women who remind them to their mommies. It's a little too late to do anything else with her.

Ohh and that Windermerian doctor wants to tell something to Keith but hesitates the drama! Maybe he'll reveal a twist about Gramia's death that most of us have seen it coming from a mile. The Roid-Keith relationship tried to mend itself but fell apart. Still, though, that rune touching are Makina/Reina level of fan pandering. Freyja implies touching a rune is kind of sexual by her reaction, but it's fine when your 'sibling' figure does? It also ties in with Shirokishi manga which implied that Roid and Keith rubbed their runes together often as children.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Berger is the "Evil NUNS guy"? How do the people of Chaos receive him after the stunt on Ragna?

Wrong Walking Stereotype of Villainy (but I guess they overlap in people's minds). Berger's the Evil Middle Eastern Guy who sold Windermere their weapons. Epsilon Guy aka Probably the Evil Anti-NUNS Guy (who doesn't like Roid's parallel agenda or is playing both sides).

Just keep in mind this is all his theory about protoculture and music and seemed to exist to simply demoralize Walkure. It does seem to kind of set Mikumo as final boss, unfortunately. I am crossing my fingers that this won't happen.

[magnuskn]

Whoops, thanks for the correction. Totally forgot that Berger was the incongrously named arabic-looking guy.

[Fairy Water]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Freyja gets all the problems, and Mirage gets nothing.

In real life it is a good thing that you have no problems to resolve. But in a piece of entertainment fiction it is borderline a matter of life and death that a character get problems to solve.

Freyia is only going to become even more prominent and loved, once we watch her grow stronger from her new trials. I really, really don't see why anyone who is a fan of hers would have a problem with that.

This is what makes this series/triangle feels so plain. Even Hayate has more problems than Mirage.

Seriously they just added Mirage so they can complete a Macross with song and triangle. I would not really bother if they didn't make her character suits my taste the best out of 6 main girls.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Whoops, thanks for the correction. Totally forgot that Berger was the incongrously named arabic-looking guy.

I badly want him to not be a villain for a twist, but I'm not really that hopeful after the strong implication that there's something off with King Gramia's last moments. And that doctor, which came out nowhere, wants to inform Keith about something he saw! What an unexpected 'twist'!

@Mirage discussion:

Mirage has her personal problems: her low self-esteem, family burdening her and her feelings for Hayate. Yes, they are kind of childish when you compare them with the many troubles Freyja had faced, but they'll probably be solved once she ends up with Hayate (because I cannot see she's worth as an independent character 'sides her love interest role).

[ReddyRedWolf]

My suspicions about Lady M's identity.

Spoiler:

Now Berger said after Space War 1 Lady M began the study on the power of song. Now this narrows it down to a Space War 1 veteran. It can't be Misa or Minmay since they went missing with Megaroad-1. I don't think it is Milia as she was pretty much a pilot and didn't rise through the ranks like Max did. I don't think its Jamis Merin certainly.

One possibility given Kaos is a private entity is Shammy Milliome. Why Shammy? She was part of Global's inner circle. Her family survived being on the Moon base. She later married a rich guy and she had 11 kids.

But the one I'm thinking most likely is that Lady M isn't a person but an organization. As in Project M that was a secret military project in trying to recreate what happened with Minmay despite what some higher ups at Earth thought Minmay was a fluke. Project M chose Basara as their candidate. It was so secret they had Gamlin's hard drive wiped when he was snooping how Basara got a VF-19. This eventually led to Sound Force, Jamming Birds and the Milky Dolls. All Tactical Sound Units.

[Thess]

Oh, what with protoculture intended for music to be used as a weapon for war and that, now makes sense why the Protoculture system that Roid activated mindcontrolled Freyja into a robotic super-buffer of a pilot. She was on autopilot as "singing weapon."

Still, this will be done for angst to overcome and realize that "uta wa (...)", instead. If Mikumo who was still wondering the meaning of singing gets on this mode, the finale might be a showdown between Mikumo and rest of Walkure who are trying to prove her music is something more, something else. I just cannot see Roid being handled by Walkure/Delta with all this development with Keith turning from his old friend. Or Heinz being a that much of a problem after Mikumo tore his clothes off in supermode. I don't want Mikumo to go in this direction, but this episode and her special ED gave me a bad vibe. Well still there's Hayate's father hanging subplot, but I'm more interested on what's happening to my beloved Walkure.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

My suspicions about Lady M's identity.

Spoiler:

Now Berger said after Space War 1 Lady M began the study on the power of song. Now this narrows it down to a Space War 1 veteran. It can't be Misa or Minmay since they went missing with Megaroad-1. I don't think it is Milia as she was pretty much a pilot and didn't rise through the ranks like Max did. I don't think its Jamis Merin certainly.

One possibility given Kaos is a private entity is Shammy Milliome. Why Shammy? She was part of Global's inner circle. Her family survived being on the Moon base. She later married a rich guy and she had 11 kids.

But the one I'm thinking most likely is that Lady M isn't a person but an organization. As in Project M that was a secret military project in trying to recreate what happened with Minmay despite what some higher ups at Earth thought Minmay was a fluke. Project M chose Basara as their candidate. It was so secret they had Gamlin's hard drive wiped when he was snooping how Basara got a VF-19. This eventually led to Sound Force, Jamming Birds and the Milky Dolls. All Tactical Sound Units.

Spoiler:

So Lady M might be Project M. Seems to fit considering their interest in music as weaponry. Maybe they found Mikumo in some ruins, or created her out of some Protoculture DNA they found.

In any case, I hope next episode will shed some light on both Lady M and Mikumo's actual backstory.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Spoiler for 19:

Still looking at the explanation with a big grain of salt due to the source and how it is at its core somewhat contradictory to a basic theme of the entire franchise to date. Sure, music has been used to stun people before they get beam cannoned or reaction warheaded to death, but it also turned the Zentradi from being cultureless drones, brought understanding to the Vajra, stopped the Protodeviln, etc.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Spoiler for 19:

Still looking at the explanation with a big grain of salt due to the source and how it is at its core somewhat contradictory to a basic theme of the entire franchise to date. Sure, music has been used to stun people before they get beam cannoned or reaction warheaded to death, but it also turned the Zentradi from being cultureless drones, brought understanding to the Vajra, stopped the Protodeviln, etc.

Spoiler for eh well:

Protoculture was unable to contact successfully with Vajra and failed to reach an understanding with Protodeviln. It's not like their vision of music is going to turn out right, like the only one who seems to give a damn about Protoculture legacy is Roid. This could be accurate (and explains why the protoculture system brainwashed Freyja like that) but it doesn't mean it wouldn't be inevitably disputed in the end.

Because Sharon Apple isn't the same as Basara Nekki, even if a suspicious guy dressed like Arab is trying to sell us this.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Thess

Spoiler for eh well:

Because Sharon Apple isn't the same as Basara Nekki, even if a suspicious guy dressed like Arab is trying to sell us this.

This so much.

Spoiler:

Berger might be right regarding the Protoculture's original intentions. But let's not forget the Protoculture brought themselves to extinction, so they're not a role model for the Galaxy or anything like that. If anything, they're an example of what not to do.

This magical singing thing is just a tool. It's not inherently evil. That's just Berger being Berger. Basara himself is proof that it can be used for good.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Spoiler:

This so much. Berger might be right regarding the Protoculture's original intentions. But let's not forget the Protoculture brought themselves to extinction, so they're not a role model for the Galaxy or anything like that. If anything, they're an example of what not to do.

This magical singing thing is just a tool. It's not inherently evil. That's just Berger being Berger.

Spoiler:

Yes, and the whole "uta wa..." and Why do people sing for? question in general. Motivation and feelings imbued in the song are important. Remember how Freyja said songs have colors and all that.

We like learned this in Macross Seven with negative/positive AS.

[Convoy]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

My suspicions about Lady M's identity.

Spoiler:

Now Berger said after Space War 1 Lady M began the study on the power of song. Now this narrows it down to a Space War 1 veteran. It can't be Misa or Minmay since they went missing with Megaroad-1. I don't think it is Milia as she was pretty much a pilot and didn't rise through the ranks like Max did. I don't think its Jamis Merin certainly.

One possibility given Kaos is a private entity is Shammy Milliome. Why Shammy? She was part of Global's inner circle. Her family survived being on the Moon base. She later married a rich guy and she had 11 kids.

But the one I'm thinking most likely is that Lady M isn't a person but an organization. As in Project M that was a secret military project in trying to recreate what happened with Minmay despite what some higher ups at Earth thought Minmay was a fluke. Project M chose Basara as their candidate. It was so secret they had Gamlin's hard drive wiped when he was snooping how Basara got a VF-19. This eventually led to Sound Force, Jamming Birds and the Milky Dolls. All Tactical Sound Units.

Do postmodern humans in Macross have lifespans that long?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Do postmodern humans in Macross have lifespans that long?

Considering modern medical technologies of Macross, where it can repair pretty much even the most grievous wounds, its not surprising.

Zentradi are immortal at full size. Cyborgs capable of body & mind transfer are also in that category.

OTOH, Shammy Milliome wasn't that old. She was but a young adult during Space War I. By 2060, she would have been close to 80 (against an avg lifespan of 83 in Japan), which is no longer considered too old even by today's standards.

- Tak