Macross Delta - Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

I didn't notice it at first but... GAMLIN KICK!

Super Hayate Kick, you mean. Messer has a long way and singing Planet Dance to go before he turns into Gamlin.

[Tak]

I for one am getting serious VFX/VFX-2 vibes.

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Interesting. Mikumo seems to be implying that Freyja is too emotionally dependant on Hayate right now. She has to grow out of that and find her own resolve, or she won't be able to reach her full potential.

I think Mikumo has realized that right now Feyja is mostly singing for Hayate, not for everyone. You could say she's failing as an idol, though this would be the first time Macross actually explores the idol thing from that perspective.

Well, except for Ranka, whose one of her main failings was that she decided to sing only for Alto, instead for all of Frontier.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, except for Ranka, whose one of her main failings was that she decided to sing only for Alto, instead for all of Frontier.

Oh goddess, and when Alto did not respond in a way that she would've expected...

- Tak

[Dash_Hunter]

Ugh I need subs now! but pretty good action in this episode.

We finally see Windermere's reason to fight, that giant crater, now we need to know if they are the ones responsible for it, or if it was the NUNS or maybe a third party, we'll see.

It seems Keith really doesn't care for Heinz.

The love triangle is finally starting, I like both girls and I think this is one of the most balanced triangles in Macross, since both girls have something in common with Hayate and they can relate with him.

Talking about love triangles, the one with Messer, Kaname and Arad is slowly developing too IMO, how I see it is that Messer likes Kaname but he knows/thinks that she likes Arad, so that's why he's cold and refuses her invitations, I'm not sure if Kaname is oblivious to that and just want to be nice with him and help him be more social or if she's interested in him, and Arad, well I don't know what he thinks about the whole situation.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

since both girls have something in common with Hayate and they can relate with him.

Eh, I give you something easier, both girls have something to like about them.

- Tak

[Thess]

Nice episode. Mirage got more exposure, but she was still kind of behind Freyja's and Hayate's character development which is still ongoing. Messer is obviously someone who cares too much for his team mates, so does Mikumo, but have a tough love approach (Mikumo shields Freyja when Bogue attacks). All their criticism is for them to grow up. Sing/Pilot like your life depend on it is on.

I was a little disappointed about how awful Mirage pilots. Not just her flying style, she kind of froze and did nothing but watch until some rookie attacked her. She's in a battlefield, she should act more like a soldier. Guess she had some good points, but so far she's still underwhelming and her "must live up to my name" arc does nothing to me. I'm not sympathetic to people with her issues.

Messer, on the other hand, seems to have a sick subplot. Won many points with me this episode after last ones.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Mikumo questions what is Freyja motivation and telling her to comfort Hayate. However Mirage beat her to the punch. Mirage relating how she felt with her first kill fighting fighting an Anti-UN group. Freyja is at the background contemplating.

Yes people the love triangle is forming.

That's not what happens at all. What Mikumo does is question Freyja what is she singing for, because she has to put her life in stake (probably to reach Heinz' level). It has nothing to do with romance, so far. Freyja and Mirage were concerned because Hayate just killed someone accidentally. Freyja, because he's her friend, and Mirage because he saved her and she's his instructor so she's responsible for him. Freyja started to muse over Mirage's words and Mikumo's about the reason of her song and feelings. Which seems more linked to what Bogue shouted at her (Traitor) that affected her than anything romance related. In fact, I'm enjoying that they are taking it easy and have no real romantic development so far. It's all about Hayate dealing with his first kill and Freyja dealing her role in the world, and the weight of their choices as pilot/Walkure singer. Hayate's got closure, but Freyja's closure will probably take a little longer.

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

That short scene with Arad, Messer, and Kaname, despite my not knowing what the dialogue was saying about jellyfish, basically punched me through the screen with MESSER IS CRAZY JEALOUS, YO.

This is the real triangle.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Interesting. Mikumo seems to be implying that Freyja is too emotionally dependant on Hayate right now. She has to grow out of that and find her own resolve, or she won't be able to reach her full potential.

I think Mikumo has realized that right now Feyja is mostly singing for Hayate, not for everyone. You could say she's failing as an idol, though this would be the first time Macross actually explores the idol thing from that perspective.

Got the opposite impression here. Mikumo doesn't bring up Hayate as a negative influence, it's the opposite (she's the one who encouraged Freyja to sing to help him and was happy about how they flew together last episode, making her W approval sign. She seems pushing her to him to get more inspiration, if anything). She mentioned how she faltered because of that word (traitor). Once again, this episode again shows Hayate and Freyja team make themselves stronger. He is unconsciously 'riding the wind' because of Freyja's song to the shock of the twins and Mirage (with huge Freyja faces on the asteriods to make it unsubtle), for example. It's like Freyja doesn't have self-awareness about herself in general. Mikumo is pushing her to try to understand her feelings in general before she sings to find her reason. She doesn't care if she sings for the mercats, Hayate, people or apples. She wants her to hurry up and figure out why and pour her life into a song, IMO. This doesn't mean romantic feelings, because she'll sing for people she cares about. To find a real meaning to her phrase "music is..." What is music to Freyja? She hastily answered energy because she didn't have a reflextion of what she was going to say.

Sheryl in the movie sings only for Alto's sake. She untaps her super power to help Alto in the first movie, not for everyone. Myung sang for Isamu only in the end and worked. Minmay's song was never for Hikaru's sake, it was for everyone's sake and for her sake. If you really want to bring up parallels.

Mikumo sings "What do people sing for?" she wonders. Heinz' voice is so full of life. I don't think he sings for his whole planet, I feel that he's singing for Keith's sake mostly.

[DragoonKain3]

URAGIRIMONO! Man, I just love it whenever someone shouts that in an anime.

As for the story itself, well, surprise surprise, Windermere has a real reason to hate the NUNS. Well, I assumed it was the NUNS fault, causing that dimensional rift or whatever looks like it. If Windermere actually knew how to cause that, I bet the more radical faction would have blown up a few planets by now.

It's weird though, Kieth is called 'nii-sama' by Heinz. So why isn't Kieth the crown prince? At first I thought it was because Heinz is the 'singer', but wasn't their dad just a mere pilot as well? It could be that Kieth isn't really Heinz's older brother, but Kieth has a stronger resemblance to dad than Heinz. Maybe he's an illegitimate son of the dad?

As for our protagonists themselves, looks like Messer is STILL letting Arad and Kaname together. Hmm, maybe Messer holds a debt/feels obligated to Arad, and so is trying to step out of the way despite his obvious feelings toward Kaname. I personally think Arad and Kaname look great together, but realistically Messer is the one closer to age. Heck, it might be Messer who Kaname is interested in, considering she invites him over and over again. For someone who has no hesitation shooting down the enemy, he sure loves to dodge the bullet in his love life, no?

Now our main triangle looks to be forming too. It's a shame that Mirage doesn't seem to join in the festivities, but I guess for someone who feels she has to live up to the Genius name, she has this compulsion to work harder/longer to try and get there. I don't blame her though, as he isn't prodigy type material like Messer is with flying, or even how Hayate is nigh unbeatable in battroid form.

For once though she gets to be the first one get to Hayate, and Freyja gets to see it as well. I actually expected that first blood goes to Freyja (in part due to I thought this would follow the original), but maybe it's just Freyja who's forced to see her feelings before Mirage? I mean, she did just get called a traitor, and Mikumo isn't really helping. She feels alone at this point, and who else to reach out to but the first person who helped her outside of Windermere.

The battle scenes were exhilarating at least, even though the back of my mind keeps telling me that such dense asteroid fields doesn't exist in real life.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

It's weird though, Kieth is called 'nii-sama' by Heinz. So why isn't Kieth the crown prince? At first I thought it was because Heinz is the 'singer', but wasn't their dad just a mere pilot as well? It could be that Kieth isn't really Heinz's older brother, but Kieth has a stronger resemblance to dad than Heinz. Maybe he's an illegitimate son of the dad?

Last one. He's an illegitimate son, iirc.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Thess

I was a little disappointed about how awful Mirage pilots. Not just her flying style, she kind of froze and did nothing but watch until some rookie attacked her. She's in a battlefield, she should act more like a soldier. Guess she had some good points, but so far she's still underwhelming and her "must live up to my name" arc does nothing to me. I'm not sympathetic to people with her issues.

She froze because she lost her superpack and most probably run out of propellant like Hayate did. Also, I wouldn't call someone who can fly backward at high speed in an asteroid field while fighting off two enemies at the same time, one of which is a veteran elite pilot, an awfulpilot. Hell, she even picked up a lost gunpod from a downed Valkyrie while fighting them.

edit: by the way, Mirage storyline isn't "living up to her name". Her memories point to a "proving them wrong" storyline. She remembers people saying she had no talent for flying.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

As for the story itself, well, surprise surprise, Windermere has a real reason to hate the NUNS. Well, I assumed it was the NUNS fault, causing that dimensional rift or whatever looks like it. If Windermere actually knew how to cause that, I bet the more radical faction would have blown up a few planets by now.

The name Keith gave that place (the brand of our shame) kinda hint at Windermere being responsible for it though.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by azarhal

She froze because she lost her superpack and most probably run out of propellant like Hayate did. Also, I wouldn't call someone who can fly backward at high speed in an asteroid field while fighting off two enemies at the same time, one of which is a veteran elite pilot, an awfulpilot. Hell, she even picked up a lost gunpod from a downed Valkyrie while fighting them.

She was gawking at Hayate's dance doing nothing for a while when Hayate was fighting Bogue before this rookie with a shaking arm was going at her. Helman wasn't trying to kill her, he was effectively disarming her and leading her to a good spot for the kid to finish her off. She didn't hold up anything, she danced on his hands and fell right into his plans. Meanwhile rookie Hayate eluded two flying prodigies and was able to intercept Bogue before saving her ass, shocking another elite warrior (Helman). I guess Hayate might teach her how it's done next because she's the weakest link of Delta Squadron. If she doesn't learn, she can always drop the Valkyrie and become a bridge bunny. Give her position to someone who is actually good.

Not really impressed with her damsel in distress role, so far. It's kind of bad when I was expecting some badass warrior pilot.

Originally Posted by azarhal

The name Keith gave that place (the brand of our shame) kinda hint at Windermere being responsible for it though.

Most likely, because they let themselves be hit by the NUNs. They are prideful folks.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

URAGIRIMONO! Man, I just love it whenever someone shouts that in an anime.

As for the story itself, well, surprise surprise, Windermere has a real reason to hate the NUNS. Well, I assumed it was the NUNS fault, causing that dimensional rift or whatever looks like it. If Windermere actually knew how to cause that, I bet the more radical faction would have blown up a few planets by now.

Windermere used a dimension weapon to win the independence war as far as our characters know. Why would NUNS use a weapon like that when they are at a military advantage? In fact using terrible weapons to level the playing field is the Aerial Knights style.

It's weird though, Kieth is called 'nii-sama' by Heinz. So why isn't Kieth the crown prince? At first I thought it was because Heinz is the 'singer', but wasn't their dad just a mere pilot as well? It could be that Kieth isn't really Heinz's older brother, but Kieth has a stronger resemblance to dad than Heinz. Maybe he's an illegitimate son of the dad?

Keith is the king's illegitimate son according to his profile.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by azarhal

She froze because she lost her superpack and most probably run out of propellant like Hayate did. Also, I wouldn't call someone who can fly backward at high speed in an asteroid field while fighting off two enemies at the same time, one of which is a veteran elite pilot, an awfulpilot. Hell, she even picked up a lost gunpod from a downed Valkyrie while fighting them.

Maybe she's not awful, but she's not up to par either. She takes the most damage in pretty much all the skirmishes.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

URAGIRIMONO! Man, I just love it whenever someone shouts that in an anime.

As for the story itself, well, surprise surprise, Windermere has a real reason to hate the NUNS. Well, I assumed it was the NUNS fault, causing that dimensional rift or whatever looks like it. If Windermere actually knew how to cause that, I bet the more radical faction would have blown up a few planets by now.

I am keeping myself open to a number of interpretations for this horrible incident that may soon doom the Wind planet.

Though it is rather unlikely it was NUN's fault, because dimension weapons for NUNs was not available then, unless the NUNs shot a Macross cannon through the planet and led to it dying gradually. But had it been by the NUNs, there would not have been a Wind planet left. Moreover, it'd be extremely counterproductive. The NUNs dwarfs the Wind in every aspect of conventional warfare, and they don't want to harm the protoculture ruins.

- Tak

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Maybe she's not awful, but she's not up to par either. She takes the most damage in pretty much all the skirmishes.

Most damage? Until this episode, she got hit by superficial shots in episode 1 and that is it. Hayate got his ass pretty beat up in episode 4 and Makina complained that Hayate is the one who bring back his plane as awful conditions in every sortie in this one.

He even scratched it on an asteroid despite not being chased or chasing something.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Thess

She was gawking at Hayate's dance doing nothing for a while when Hayate was fighting Bogue before this rookie with a shaking arm was going at her. Helman wasn't trying to kill her, he was effectively disarming her and leading her to a good spot for the kid to finish her off. She didn't hold up anything, she danced on his hands and fell right into his plans. Meanwhile rookie Hayate eluded two flying prodigies and was able to intercept Bogue before saving her ass, shocking another elite warrior (Helman). I guess Hayate might teach her how it's done next because she's the weakest link of Delta Squadron. If she doesn't learn, she can always drop the Valkyrie and become a bridge bunny. Give her position to someone who is actually good..

You always are really harsh on Mirage's performance when in story every character implies the opposite, she was scouted for Delta squad personally by Arad, would he have personally convinced her to leave the NUNS and join Chaos if she was a bad pilot?, she has already fought and survived a conflict against anti-U.N. forces, the Elysion's crew called her an elite pilot, and even this very episode Messer said she was good and any mistake he could point out would be nitpicking, her problem is that she always does everything by the book, she's too rigid in her flying.

The pilot that defeated her was Herman who is probably the second best pilot of the aerial knights, not to mention what azarhal already pointed out about the propelant and other stuff.
Hayate is doing better than her so far because of his plot power-up of "feeling the wind/Immelman dance" that is his advantage and that is what Mirage will most likely learn from him if the opening is anything to go by, I'm already expecting the "Teach me how to dance" episode where she will finally stop being so rigid and strict.

Look, I'm not saying Mirage is the best pilot, that one is obviously Messer, but she is hardly as bad as a pilot to even suggest that she should be a bridge bunny (or join walkure like I've read in other sites), she's a main character, she has challenges to overcome and development ahead of her.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Tak

I am keeping myself open to a number of interpretations for this horrible incident that may soon doom the Wind planet.

Though it is rather unlikely it was NUN's fault, because dimension weapons for NUNs was not available then, unless the NUNs shot a Macross cannon through the planet and led to it dying gradually. But had it been by the NUNs, there would not have been a Wind planet left. Moreover, it'd be extremely counterproductive. The NUNs dwarfs the Wind in every aspect of conventional warfare, and they don't want to harm the protoculture ruins.

- Tak

More to the point Keith said the scar on the planet's surface is their shame.

Yeah they pretty much fucked up. Now they are targeting Protoculture ruin planets. Whether they are colonized by Humans and Zentradi or homeworlds of other Children of the Protoculture.

For a race with a superiority complex they do have an inferiority complex.

Keith's answer is kill them all as they need planets for their people to move to.


On another note politics is preventing NUNS from sending a combine fleet on Windermere. I'm sure there are a lot of factors to consider. From the dimension barrier surrounding Winfermere, the Var syndrome taking over military personnel, to the interpretation of the Galaxy Treaty preventing NUNS from invading planets. Not to mention politicians seeing this as typical planetary disputes.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

For a race with a superiority complex they do have an inferiority complex.

That's why I called it a superiority/inferiority complex in a previous episode thread. Although, I think that Roid has a superiority complex while Keith has an inferiority one now.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by azarhal

Although, I think that Roid has a superiority complex while Keith has an inferiority one now.

I was thinking that at some later point Lloyd will call for a retreat from battle and Keith will say "No." The Knights apparently can Fold home without a mothership, so the only other support they need is Heinz's singing, which they might not need in every single circumstance. If Keith thinks that he can pull off a solid win by fighting a bit longer, what's really going to stop him?

This is the third time that Lloyd has told Keith to withdraw from a fight with Delta, and the first time that the Knights have lost anyone, even if they were cannonfodder. That has to be bothering Big K.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

You always are really harsh on Mirage's performance when in story every character implies the opposite, she was scouted for Delta squad personally by Arad, would he have personally convinced her to leave the NUNS and join Chaos if she was a bad pilot?, she has already fought and survived a conflict against anti-U.N. forces, the Elysion's crew called her an elite pilot, and even this very episode Messer said she was good and any mistake he could point out would be nitpicking, her problem is that she always does everything by the book, she's too rigid in her flying.

The pilot that defeated her was Herman who is probably the second best pilot of the aerial knights, not to mention what azarhal already pointed out about the propelant and other stuff.
Hayate is doing better than her so far because of his plot power-up of "feeling the wind/Immelman dance" that is his advantage and that is what Mirage will most likely learn from him if the opening is anything to go by, I'm already expecting the "Teach me how to dance" episode where she will finally stop being so rigid and strict.

Look, I'm not saying Mirage is the best pilot, that one is obviously Messer, but she is hardly as bad as a pilot to even suggest that she should be a bridge bunny (or join walkure like I've read in other sites), she's a main character, she has challenges to overcome and development ahead of her.

She wasn't paying attention to the battlefield before Herrman attacked her. That's like a stupid rookie's mistake (something I let Hayate to commit, but not Mirage). Elysium crew called her family elite, not Mirage herself, they just assumed she was as good as they are (and she isn't). I'm not saying she's completely awful, but she's awful comparatively with the rest of her team. She's not just worse than Messer, she's the worst one of the five.

It really annoys me because I expected someone competent. Maybe you're right, and she'll become better. I'll be cautiously optimistic.