Mahouka - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[Kenju of the Right]

Yeah as expected with the Bloom/Weed stuff, the main characters are really arrogant. Course 1 characters don't really seem to care

[Ickarium]

I wonder if we're watching the same anime. They (I'm assuming you mean Mayumi, Mari, etc) don't care? Huh? What do you expect them to do, wave a magic wand and fix peoples' emotional outlook? It is explicitly /not/ the huge corrupt thing that the people who /work with terrorists/ are saying it is. The whole fact that in the debate they -had not one point- that was able to be argued truthfully should be a sign, yes?

I know people are ingrained to assume the worst and root for the underdogs, but Mibu's group are not in the right in this. Not about the system, anyway. This is made pretty explicit. You don't see any of the other Course 2 students who are given focus (Erika, Mizuki, Leo, etc) jumping to join do you?

[Kenju of the Right]

By 'don't care'' i mean she doesn't seem to understand how the course 2 students feel about being discriminated. Like I know Mibu's side is in the wrong but there's some right how the school needs to change.
Especially when she had the nerve to put some of the blame on the course 2 students for the whole bloom/weed thing

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

The issue is there's prejudice and arrogance among the students. Not something you fix by just legislating things. The system is already, other than that one thing, equal - outside teachers which again, isn't something you can just fix if there /are no teachers present/.

Don't believe the rhetoric.

inb4 someone brings up uniform

[Ickarium]

She's right, though. Yes, they are being discriminated against by some of the Course 1 students. This is a fact. (Though, likely not as much in general as we see with Tatsuya as he's a special case with Miyuki and all, plus being put on the spotlight for other issues).

But there is relevance to the fact that they /accept/ it as valid. It gives /credence/ to the prejudice if they accept themselves as inferior. Basically, whether they realize it or not, their acceptance helps perpetuate it.

And the group Mibu is a part of /does/, even though they keep talking about equality. Though... um, well, I'll wait till next episode to say more on what I was going to say.

Edited to Add: Hey, when I was a kid, I went to a school that had different uniforms for various things. It doesn't mean a thing in and of itself. It's the fact that there's an unhealthy social structure that's the issue.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

Edited to Add: Hey, when I was a kid, I went to a school that had different uniforms for various things. It doesn't mean a thing in and of itself.

So your AP(elite) class students wear a different uniform ?

[Ickarium]

Was a private school, and the honor students wore a little silver badge type thing. This was decades ago, though. Plus, the sport's teams was allowed to wear their official jacket on school grounds, as the school grounds required uniforms otherwise.

... I feel old all of a sudden, thinking how long it's been since I was in HS.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Ickarium

I wonder if we're watching the same anime. They (I'm assuming you mean Mayumi, Mari, etc) don't care? Huh? What do you expect them to do, wave a magic wand and fix peoples' emotional outlook? It is explicitly /not/ the huge corrupt thing that the people who /work with terrorists/ are saying it is. The whole fact that in the debate they -had not one point- that was able to be argued truthfully should be a sign, yes?

I know people are ingrained to assume the worst and root for the underdogs, but Mibu's group are not in the right in this. Not about the system, anyway. This is made pretty explicit. You don't see any of the other Course 2 students who are given focus (Erika, Mizuki, Leo, etc) jumping to join do you?

They care, but not enough to actually do anything about it or even have it on their minds of the time. It took basically a weed revolt to get them to even talk about the situation. Political promises are also easy to make, but that doesn't mean they have to put any effort in following through. Politicians make empty promises all the time. She could just bring it up at the meeting and everyone will just vote it down, and she'll have fulfilled her promise.

There are actually 3 issues that are clearly systematically discriminatory, but the course 2 students in the debate for some reason were too stupid to bring up:

1. No magical teachers for the course 2 students
2. Different uniforms
3. Course 2 students cannot be on the student council.

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm starting to wonder what the studio staff is trying to do at times.
If it wasn't for the fact I read the manga beforehand, I could swear that Miyuki's role is solely for pseudo incest joke that goes overused at this point. I think it is really time for them to give her some perspective/dialogue as the character herself barely has any purpose in the anime.

Pretty much sums up Miyuki as shown in the anime.
The studio tried to trim down the massive info dump in the LN and inner monologues, but this has negatively impacted her character to the point where you would ask yourself what her purpose is. Since Mahouka is fairly popular in terms of LN sales, the studio tries its best in adapting it, but the current pace just leaves out too much character development. They didn't do a great job so far, but also not a bad one.

Anyone else found it weird that some random people dressed as workers had easy access to school grounds, allowing them to place their bombs? Given the importance of magic schools in developing and educating aspiring magicians, you would think that at the very least they would check IDs of personnels entering and leaving the school as well as check whatever they bring into school.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Esclair

They care, but not enough to actually do anything about it or even have it on their minds of the time. It took basically a weed revolt to get them to even talk about the situation. Political promises are also easy to make, but that doesn't mean they have to put any effort in following through. Politicians make empty promises all the time. She could just bring it up at the meeting and everyone will just vote it down, and she'll have fulfilled her promise.

Except that she's been shown to care. Mayumi has been consistently anti-discrimination throughout the entire show.

I'm amused by the "feedback" from Real Life experiences in Mahouka. Simply because in Real Life politicians turn out to be untrustworthy backstabbing bastards, you are here reverse-projecting that Mayumi is insincere. Are you aware of that?

There are actually 3 issues that are clearly systematically discriminatory, but the course 2 students in the debate for some reason were too stupid to bring up:

1. No magical teachers for the course 2 students

Which is explained by the limited amount of personnel able to teach magic. It's either that or dissolution of the "weed" classes. Would that be better? Simply make the cut at the "bloom" level and refuse the "weeds"? Would end discrimination, at least.

2. Different uniforms

Boo-HOOOO. A symbol missing, ohmygosh!

Not the missing symbol is a discrimination, but what people are MAKING out of it.

3. Course 2 students cannot be on the student council.

Which is what Mayumi has promised to abolish.

Nothing of this is really revolution material, you know.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Esclair

They care, but not enough to actually do anything about it or even have it on their minds of the time. It took basically a weed revolt to get them to even talk about the situation. Political promises are also easy to make, but that doesn't mean they have to put any effort in following through. Politicians make empty promises all the time. She could just bring it up at the meeting and everyone will just vote it down, and she'll have fulfilled her promise.

Now you are just being insulting. If you think that poorly of her character than you haven't actually been watching this show. In fact you are resorting to underhanded political practices yourself by accusing her of being a corrupt politician without any basis, and when the series has made it quite plain that she actually strongly disapproves of the discrimination that's going on and really does intend to do everything in her power to stop it.

1. No magical teachers for the course 2 students
2. Different uniforms
3. Course 2 students cannot be on the student council.

1: This is a problem the author has apparently decided is unfixable. Stop banging your head against it because you're just going to turn your skull into paste. The characters aren't going to be able to fix it because the author won't write it that way. Even if it wasn't, the student council wouldn't have influence over that, so it's a null-issue.

2: This is the elephant in the room. I can only assume it is intended to be addressed at some point in the future, because it is the most obvious and easily-fixable source of discrimination.

3: This one is being worked upon, but cannot legally be fixed simply by the president giving an order and having everything change right now.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Boo-HOOOO. A symbol missing, ohmygosh!

Not the missing symbol is a discrimination, but what people are MAKING out of it.

As far as human psychology goes, it's pretty easy to associate with the difference of have and have-not. It's not a different symbol, it's missing altogether ! It's one thing if students can choose to wear either one, but apparently that's not the case.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Except that she's been shown to care. Mayumi has been consistently anti-discrimination throughout the entire show.

I'm amused by the "feedback" from Real Life experiences in Mahouka. Simply because in Real Life politicians turn out to be untrustworthy backstabbing bastards, you are here reverse-projecting that Mayumi is insincere. Are you aware of that?

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Now you are just being insulting. If you think that poorly of her character than you haven't actually been watching this show. In fact you are resorting to underhanded political practices yourself by accusing her of being a corrupt politician without any basis, and when the series has made it quite plain that she actually strongly disapproves of the discrimination that's going on and really does intend to do everything in her power to stop it.

I'm not saying she's insincere. I'm saying her sincerity doesn't mean much to the course 2 students. We only know about her sincerity as the audience because we're privy to information that the course 2 students in the show do not have. To most course 2 students her promise alone shouldn't really be enough to get them to concede immediately.

Also, regarding her sincerity, there's nothing to suggest she'd have brought up the student council reform if the course 2 students didn't stir things up. I mean, sure she doesn't personally discriminate against weeds and has done little things here and there but I don't think she has the power nor the motivation to go the extra mile for them.

Which is explained by the limited amount of personnel able to teach magic. It's either that or dissolution of the "weed" classes. Would that be better? Simply make the cut at the "bloom" level and refuse the "weeds"? Would end discrimination, at least.

Well, the setting already pretty much says this is 'impossible' to solve, but that doesn't mean it's not a valid point the course 2 students can bring up. Of course they don't bring it up either way.

Boo-HOOOO. A symbol missing, ohmygosh!

Not the missing symbol is a discrimination, but what people are MAKING out of it.

If it's no big deal then why not just remove the emblems from every uniform? It's obviously a cause of stress for half the students so the easiest solution would be to just remove it? Again, it should have been one of the points that the course 2 students bring up so there could be a discussion about it, but it's not brought up at all.

Which is what Mayumi has promised to abolish.

This is a point that the course 2 students should have brought up though.

Nothing of this is really revolution material, you know.

Well it took the course 2 students to stir things up to this extent to even get these issues addressed.

Anyways, even if these issues are 'addressed' with in setting logic, they should still have been brought up by the course 2 students considering their situation. Instead the only thing they bring up is that non-magic clubs get less funding, which turns out to be false. It basically just ties back to the plot point that course 2 students are easily manipulated by outside forces and are pretty stupid, hence why they don't actually bring up anything that could be remotely debated. It makes the whole discrimination sub-plot feel very contrived though.

[RoboMambo]

There's also that the disciplinary comitte allows class 2 students, but there is only one in it. This means, on practice, that class 1 students get to police over class 2 students. And that single class 2 member happens to be friends of the council president and brother of a council member, so from an outsiders view it'd look more like nepotism than inclusion.

On the uniform, besides being a symbol of class segregation, it also allows student to recognize one another's standing with a simple look, which is unnecesary and helps foster further segregation.

These leftist strawmen are amusing, not managing to come up a single solid example of discrimination when there are so many.



Turning to something more important, what's up with the bgm during Mizuki's rant? So disconcerting.

[Mentar]

There's nothing wrong with bringing up valid points in a public forum. However, if you really feel that these three points you listed constitute a huge issue, we have to agree to disagree.

This is something that actually annoys ME to no end in real life, though most likely in the opposite direction compared to you: This politicized whiny-victimization of people. "I feel discriminated against! You say you have no reason to?? Doesn't matter, I FEEL disrespected, so I'm a victim anyway. And it's YOUR fault up there that I feel like this! Why didn't you fix this before I even got here?"

This kind of "argument" comes in many shapes and forms, and I've come to hate it. In the Mahouka world, it's unrealistically easy for me to judge, because here, the actual "form" of the discrimination makes it easy: Mayumi gave a proper account. And she is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that the willingness of many weeds to ACCEPT the role of the discriminated is a major part of the problem in itself. Look at how Erika/Leo/Mizuki/Honoka/Shizuka act: They don't f*cking care, and deal with each other respectfully. Do they feel discriminated against? It doesn't seem like it. They accept that their magical prowess is below the first-courses, and THIS IS IT. They still do their best, and that is more than fine in most cases. This is how it's SUPPOSED to be in my book.

I know from personal life experience that if some people tried half as hard to do what they can within their (possible) limits, they'd be perfectly successful. This "it's someone else's fault that I am disrespected" self-victimization is poisonous, self-deprecating, and all too much opens people up to political exploitation.

In the RL world, things tend to be much more grey, since often enough there discrimination comes with real actual examples for unfair preferential treatment. In this LN setting, less so.

[millie10468]

Hey Mentar, have you been defending Mahouka on, say, a certain "geek"'s website? I hear you've got yourself a reputation :-)

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by millie10468

Hey Mentar, have you been defending Mahouka on, say, a certain "geek"'s website? I hear you've got yourself a reputation :-)

Yup, I've raised the ire of some anime elitists and their echo chamber... costs me endless sleepless nights ... boo hoooo!

[Ickarium]

There's actually a reason for Course 2 students to not be on the disciplinary committee, though. Even if he was a jerkass about it, Hattori brought it up: most Course 2 students /can't win/ against Course 1 students in a magical fight. This isn't bias, this is fact. Tatsuya struggled to pass the activation test at 1000ms, and that's pretty typical of Course 2 students in general, though many are better than him. You don't want to know what the Course 1 numbers are.

There are exceptions (and no, not just Tatsuya) but these exceptions are pretty rare, it's not surprising it's not come up thus far, the school's only been open a decade after all (I think it mentioned that at the start of the series). That's really not long when you only have 100 students for a while, and then open it up to 200.

[millie10468]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Yup, I've raised the ire of some anime elitists and their echo chamber... costs me endless sleepless nights ... boo hoooo!

That same post was posted somewhere else. Not recognizing that it was you doing the defending, I pointed out how well the poster had defended his/her position. I was derisively told "What are you talking about? Everyone agrees that I out-debated him," forgetting that the debate had been abandoned when it couldn't be rebutted anymore. Man, I was so confused... Still am So who won?

[maplehurry]

They accept that their magical prowess is below the first-courses, and THIS IS IT.

Leo and Erika's more than willing to fight Morisaka near the end of episode 1 when Morisaka's bragging about how he's superior.