The Future of Earth and Beyond!

[Magin]

The future of Earth: Mother Nature Strikes Back!

I'm going with the "we're fucked" thinking... 2012 anyone?

[Ithekro]

Never bought the 2012 nonsense. Even the Incans don't believe that.

[ChainLegacy]

In terms of overpopulation, there may be a frightening (temporary) 'solution' of sorts. With micro-organisms evolving at their rapid pace, they've already begun to circumvent our treatments (ie. antibiotics). Who's to say that some hyper-resistant to treatment plague doesn't evolve in the near future? With population at its greatest density in history, and everyday travel occurring on a global scale, we're actually the most vulnerable of any point in history for a worldwide plague.

Though it's interesting; while I do think it's theoretically possible to gain resources from space or deep-earth, it is true that massive tragedies have historically led to renewal of cultures (or, if too severe, their destruction). Consider the black death and the profound impact it had on European history. Feudalism's demise was quickened if not partially caused by the destruction. Further, in evolutionary history global disasters have led to so much devastation and extinction, yet without these catastrophes we would never have evolved in the first place. So while we certainly wouldn't hope for some worldwide Armageddon, whether it be biological or otherwise, the long-term effects sometimes are positive.

[DonQuigleone]

NB it was the Mayans that thought up the whole 2012 thing

@GundamFan: right now certain technological hurdles still remain before intense exploitation of space becomes feasible. For instance it still costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a kilogram of water into space. Obviously some kind of Space elevator type of project will be required, but the technology for that is still some time away.

In addition, the governmental funding isn't there with the end of the cold war. Here's hoping China gets in the fray and spurs the US to compete with it...

[Ithekro]

Either way...they didn't believe it (I'm tired...I've been awake for over 24 hours now).

Whole thing is about renewal, not destruction. Turning circles keep turning and all that.


(American corperations are on it for space travel....VSS Enterprise is on trails presently)

[synaesthetic]

Either an orbital elevator or a revolutionary new propulsion system that lets us hit escape velocity with significantly less waste and cost. I'm actually banking more on the latter, since space elevators are such a huge, costly undertaking.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Either an orbital elevator or a revolutionary new propulsion system that lets us hit escape velocity with significantly less waste and cost. I'm actually banking more on the latter, since space elevators are such a huge, costly undertaking.

Eh, the issue is that you have to carry your fuel up with you. The only cheap way would be to use Nuclear, which would have it's own problems...

The only other alternative is a mass driver.

[Tenken's Smile]

Even if we invent a way to have unlimited resources so resource exhaustion won't be a problem, the Sun will die out in ~5 billion years.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by DonQuigleone

Eh, the issue is that you have to carry your fuel up with you. The only cheap way would be to use Nuclear, which would have it's own problems...

The only other alternative is a mass driver.

Obviously fuel would be an issue, but mass drivers are probably a more logical short-term solution. Nuclear wouldn't work either, not in its current form--we'd have to iron out the issues with fusion reactors and make them smaller. At least though, fuel wouldn't be an issue--hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, after all.

Matter-antimatter reactors could keep the fuel weight to a minimum, but we're not close to that yet, since the longest-lived antiparticle we've managed to create only lasted sixteen minutes. We'd have to create stable antiparticles, which is beyond our current capabilities. Plus, it's not like you can just gather up antimatter from space like you can hydrogen...

Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile

Even if we invent a way to have unlimited resources so resource exhaustion won't be a problem, the Sun will die out in ~5 billion years.

You've seen how much we can accomplish in a hundred years. What do you think will happen in a million years (assuming we don't kill ourselves first)?

The last thing we have to worry about is our star entering the red giant phase. We'll be either long dead or spread out across the galaxy by then.

[justinstrife]

Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile

Even if we invent a way to have unlimited resources so resource exhaustion won't be a problem, the Sun will die out in ~5 billion years.

Should humans still be alive and not have evolved into something else over the next 1 billion years, I'm not too worried about humanity requiring Earth to continue to exist, when the Sun burns itself out. We'll already be in other Galaxies by then.

As for running out of resources, and pollution problems, technology has been advancing so quickly in the past 200 years, that I am confident we will find ways to stay ahead and create more efficient energy, and produce food in larger quantities to make up for the expanse of human population.

Necessity is the mother of all inventions afterall.

[lordshadowisle]

Space seems to be a way out. While Earth's resources may not be quite so limited as some may believe, after some point of time it'll probably be more economical to exact resources from space.

That said, I don't think Humanity will ever inherit the stars. Posthumans (genetic engineering, or some form or cybernetics) and other augmented organisms are more likely. That or robots.

[erneiz_hyde]

Let's try and step into Science Fiction a bit, I'm just curious.

Is it possible that mankind could eventually develop to become a virtual being? So like, going one step ahead from The Matrix? Just in case we're really stuck in our planet.

Spoiler:

There's this VN I played where humanity literally has a second world inside their brains. Simply put an internet with virtual reality, like The Matrix. Cutting story short, eventually humanity developed a technology that's able to transport their whole consciousness into this virtual world, leaving the corporeal body behind.

It's described there that the advancements in VR there was because there was already a virtual being (later revealed to be a higher-dimensional being) existed long before humans. After humans developed enough neural networking technology, they came in contact with it and suddenly VR developed like never imagined before.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Let's try and step into Science Fiction a bit, I'm just curious.

Is it possible that mankind could eventually develop to become a virtual being? So like, going one step ahead from The Matrix? Just in case we're really stuck in our planet.

Spoiler:

There's this VN I played where humanity literally has a second world inside their brains. Simply put an internet with virtual reality, like The Matrix. Cutting story short, eventually humanity developed a technology that's able to transport their whole consciousness into this virtual world, leaving the corporeal body behind.

It's described there that the advancements in VR there was because there was already a virtual being (later revealed to be a higher-dimensional being) existed long before humans. After humans developed enough neural networking technology, they came in contact with it and suddenly VR developed like never imagined before.

I think we could live a substantial percentage of our lives virtually via sensory simulation ... but the whole upload idea I think is somewhat fantasy. "mind" is intrinsically a function of the wetware *including* the hormonal and limbic systems. That wet wiring is awash in hormonal juices of all kinds (not just the sexy ones, but complex controlling, messaging, and other functionalities we're still working out).

And in another sense, its the "transporter" problem. You've created a copy that may have all the memories and all the attributes of the original but you've destroyed the original. That instance was destroyed. No one *else* minds but the *original* instance...

[erneiz_hyde]

The idea could also be implemented in the case we could colonize other planets but we still haven't had the means of transportation in a sane time frame. So during the whole voyage, the crews live in a virtual world managed by an AI that can also automatically mend and repair the ship. The crews can steer the ship from inside the virtual realm using some kind of sensory device linked to the AI. When the ship arrives at the target planet, the ships first deploy some kind of terra-forming nanomachine bots to make the environment suitable first. Then using some kind of clone-creator, recreating physical bodies of the crew (in case the original didn't survive cryo that well).

It sounds extremely fantasy, but...you know, it feels like it might be possible sometime in the far future.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Matter-antimatter reactors could keep the fuel weight to a minimum, but we're not close to that yet, since the longest-lived antiparticle we've managed to create only lasted sixteen minutes. We'd have to create stable antiparticles, which is beyond our current capabilities. Plus, it's not like you can just gather up antimatter from space like you can hydrogen...

I don't think Anti Matter would be effective. The only thing I could see it being used for is as a form of Battery, Anti-matter does not occur naturally in the environment.

Hydrogen does occur in the environment, and so fusion reactors would be the most effective way to go.

Fission reactors could work once you're in space, but I think the radioactive fallout from using it as an engine source would be too great.

Mass drivers I think sound the most plausible, but a large one hasn't been built.

I do think Space elevators would be the most effective, as you could have two elevators attached to one another, and have one fall as the other rises, meaning you'd have minimal energy usage at all, much like a modern elevator. Though likely even more efficient due to lack of space constraints. The simple problem is finding a long enough strong enough material to make the wire from, but of course, carbon nanotubes research is proceeding quite well.

[synaesthetic]

Vexx speaks the truth. We're hardware and software. Take one away, and the person's either dead or simply data.

[lordshadowisle]

I suppose with sufficiently advanced physics simulators we can entirely be described by just software. Of course, this will require a couple of magnitudes more computing power than just simulating some neural network. It also doesn't make you immortal, since your simulated self is just as susceptible to simulated aging.

[erneiz_hyde]

@vexx: "what and where is human consciousness?" is supposedly still an open philosophical debate. Where do you get that the mind is intrinsically a function of the wetware? I'm curious.

You mentioned the "transporter" problem, but as far as science is concerned, it is irrelevant. That is the domain of religion and ethics. If it looks like me, speaks like me, thinks like me, has my memories, and thinks it is me, then it should be me. The question though remain whether it is possible or not. The answer relies on what actually our "mind" is, I guess.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

@vexx: "what and where is human consciousness?" is supposedly still an open philosophical debate. Where do you get that the mind is intrinsically a function of the wetware? I'm curious.

Neuroscience. The combination of neural network and limbic systems from which the phenomenon we call "mind" emerges.

However, if you believe in a soul then there's a fundamental problem with uploading. If you don't subscribe to the notion of a soul .. .there's *still* a fundamental problem with uploading, just a different one. I'm just noting that the far more complicated limbic system has to be simulated as well as just the neural wiring (which is continuously rewiring to account for new data, new memories, new internal models of what is outside).

You mentioned the "transporter" problem, but as far as science is concerned, it is irrelevant. That is the domain of religion and ethics. If it looks like me, speaks like me, thinks like me, has my memories, and thinks it is me, then it should be me. The question though remain whether it is possible or not. The answer relies on what actually our "mind" is, I guess.

That it is "you" is only true to outside observers. The "you" that enters the chamber will be extinguished and the virtual you (or transported you) will be a copy. If you believe in a soul... it would somehow have to figure out where the new "you" is or you are just an amiable soul-less entity. If you don't believe in a soul.... it still remains that the original has been extinguished from its point of view.

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Neuroscience. The combination of neural network and limbic systems from which the phenomenon we call "mind" emerges.

However, if you believe in a soul then there's a fundamental problem with uploading. If you don't subscribe to the notion of a soul .. .there's *still* a fundamental problem with uploading, just a different one. I'm just noting that the far more complicated limbic system has to be simulated as well as just the neural wiring (which is continuously rewiring to account for new data, new memories, new internal models of what is outside).

That it is "you" is only true to outside observers. The "you" that enters the chamber will be extinguished and the virtual you (or transported you) will be a copy. If you believe in a soul... it would somehow have to figure out where the new "you" is or you are just an amiable soul-less entity. If you don't believe in a soul.... it still remains that the original has been extinguished from its point of view.

And we haven't even gotten yet into what happens if we can "upload"... while retaining the original copy, like how uploading files to the cloud works these days. You have a copy in the cloud, but the copy in your computer is still there.

Similarly, there's a "you" in the cloud, but there's also still a "you" in your body. And even then, that's still not getting into what happens if you can download the "you" in the cloud into another body.

Things just get more... entertaining from there.