F/SN UBW TV - Episode 17 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Gundamx]

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

So just out of curiosity did Gae Blog penetrate Rhos Dias but Archer wasn't killed because the shield absorbed most of the impact?

I always though he completely lost his right arm in novel and his left arm end up in same state as right arm in anime
(Then he used trace on/ body enhance in his body to repair/remake his arm > which was the cause of his skin color change because he always overused it on his body)

Though it look like I was wrong

[Mentar]

And once again I felt the power of "beauty forgives". Was I the only one who thought "what kind of idiot would cheat on someone looking like her?", especially since Medea was supposed to turn evil only _after_ she was deserted?

[Rising Dragon]

Archer's ultimate goal is to get Shirou to give up his ideals and step away from the path of the hero. Trying to kill Shirou by his own hand is ultimately a very, very small chance at causing a paradox strong enough to eradicate his own existence as a Counter Guardian, and frankly it's mainly just to make himself feel better, to deal with pent-up resentment at his past self.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by bakato

Can someone answer something for me? Why is Archer being so roundabout? Does he really want to kill Shiroe? He had a lot of opportunities to do so.

His main desire is to kill Shirou but other obligations do get in the way. His contract with Rin was the main sticking point. It's fairly obvious that Rin was always partial towards Shirou regardless of whether it made sense or not (and as you might recall, Archer kept testing her on that) and the broad command spell that Rin issues on her first encounter with Archer ironically ends up being a minor inhibition for him at first.

And when Archer just says "screw it" and tries to kill Shirou outright at the Ryuudou Temple anyway, Rin afterwards puts another command spell on Archer not to kill Shirou (but the exposition on that particularly crucial plot point was admittedly a bit "blink and you miss it").

Because of that command spell, Archer has to go a roundabout way of killing Shirou. The only way for him to remove that command spell is for him to break his contract with Rin and the only way he can do that is by either killing Rin or using Caster's Rule Breaker. The fact that he uses Caster's Rule Breaker is an obvious hint that he doesn't want any harm to come to Rin if he can help it and that's also why he doesn't immediately go after Shirou once his contract is broken until Caster is killed. He knows Rin isn't ever going to give in and accept defeat even it means her life, so he then has to kill Caster and has to keep Shirou alive for the time being for that to work. If you notice Archer mentions Caster's ever watching eyes more than once and that's because he knows they're always on him. All he needs is one opportunity for Caster to be distracted and he can take her down easily. Him fighting Lancer for real helps the cause because it means Caster has less reason to keep an eye on him, especially when she needs to devote her full concentration on fighting Rin (and proctecting Kuzuki if need be). So he essentially needs to deploy a roundabout way of killing Caster in order to satify his roundabout way of killing Shirou. The poetic irony is that the main thing stopping Shirou from killing himself always seems to be Rin in more ways than one.

Of course, the whole thing is open to a lot of interpretation and some suggest he may have been a bit half hearted in killing Shirou, or that his obligations as a Counter Guardian got in the way and so on.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

He wants to kill him, but that does not mean that he is completely disinterested in everything else. For example, he wants Rin and Saber to win the HGW and that's why he first killed Caster (otherwise, she would win) and only then focused on Shirou (IIRC, it was mentioned in the VN, in one of his monologues to be exact, that he planned for Rin and Saber to make a contract).

This. Also, I would say Archer wasn't really set on killing Shirou from the start and only truly decided to do so with their fallout after the fight with Caster in the Ryudou Temple. But Saber managed to rescue Shirou then, and right after that Rin put a Command Spell on Archer not to harm him, hence Archer having to go through all this trouble to get a chance to kill him (without also jeopardizing Rin's chances of winning the Grail).

And well, I actually would go further and say that deep down Archer didn't really want to kill Shirou so much as he wanted to vent his frustrations and take out his anger on his younger self whom he now saw as foolish and naive, and that on a subconscious level his attempts to harm Shirou were more of a challenge for him to prove him wrong and remind him of the beauty of the ideal they once held in common. But it might be better to leave such a discussion for when their clash actually takes place in a couple of episodes or so.

[Levani]

This Archer is from an alternate universe right? Killing our Shirou has no bearing over his existence whatsoever.

[Raziel1991]

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

So just out of curiosity did Gae Blog penetrate Rhos Dias but Archer wasn't killed because the shield absorbed most of the impact?

Rho aius stopped/blocked gae bolg the moment the last layer broke. Archer takes damage with each layer of Rho aius that shatters.

[Lorhand]

I curse mirror-moon for "establishing" names like Aius and Arturia.

[DGDCOne]

That episode seem to be rushed don't ya think?:O
It's good cuz Kuzuki tells Caster about his life.

[Raziel1991]

Originally Posted by DGDCOne

That episode seem to be rushed don't ya think?:O
It's good cuz Kuzuki tells Caster about his life.

The fights atleast were certainly rushed and I was hoping for a better explanation of Rho aius.

[GreyZone]

Some scenes seemed as if something was cut.


We'll have to wait for BDs, or at least another confirmation by official Twitter.

[HandofFate]

I liked that it started playing some kara no kyoukai music when Rin started a bombardment of jewel spells kind of like the church scene in KnK, but it got denied and the music just stops like 'wrong series opps'

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

So just out of curiosity did Gae Blog penetrate Rhos Dias but Archer wasn't killed because the shield absorbed most of the impact?

Basically the spear ran out of momentum after breaking the last of the barriers. The damage Archer took was probably feedback from Rho Aias being broken.

Originally Posted by Levani

This Archer is from an alternate universe right? Killing our Shirou has no bearing over his existence whatsoever.

Archer is actually aware of this. But really there's nothing else he can do so he tries it anyway.


Re: Have first timers STILL not figured it out?

Well one thing that keeps their minds closed to the possibility is basically the fact that as far as they are aware, servants are supposed to be legendary heroes from the past. The story does not bother mentioning that the spirit does not necessarily need to be all that legendary, nor the fact that the future is excluded from this equation. At least, not until the beans are finally spilled.

[Rising Dragon]

I'm thinking the damage was probably from dealing with that huge explosion that took out half the bloody church and the entire courtyard.

[Dengar]

Uhm. Yeah. There was that thing also.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Haak

His main desire is to kill Shirou but other obligations do get in the way. His contract with Rin was the main sticking point. It's fairly obvious that Rin was always partial towards Shirou regardless of whether it made sense or not (and as you might recall, Archer kept testing her on that) and the broad command spell that Rin issues on her first encounter with Archer ironically ends up being a minor inhibition for him at first.

And when Archer just says "screw it" and tries to kill Shirou outright at the Ryuudou Temple anyway, Rin afterwards puts another command spell on Archer not to kill Shirou (but the exposition on that particularly crucial plot point was admittedly a bit "blink and you miss it").

Because of that command spell, Archer has to go a roundabout way of killing Shirou. The only way for him to remove that command spell is for him to break his contract with Rin and the only way he can do that is by either killing Rin or using Caster's Rule Breaker. The fact that he uses Caster's Rule Breaker is an obvious hint that he doesn't want any harm to come to Rin if he can help it and that's also why he doesn't immediately go after Shirou once his contract is broken until Caster is killed. He knows Rin isn't ever going to give in and accept defeat even it means her life, so he then has to kill Caster and has to keep Shirou alive for the time being for that to work. If you notice Archer mentions Caster's ever watching eyes more than once and that's because he knows they're always on him. All he needs is one opportunity for Caster to be distracted and he can take her down easily. Him fighting Lancer for real helps the cause because it means Caster has less reason to keep an eye on him, especially when she needs to devote her full concentration on fighting Rin (and proctecting Kuzuki if need be). So he essentially needs to deploy a roundabout way of killing Caster in order to satify his roundabout way of killing Shirou. The poetic irony is that the main thing stopping Shirou from killing himself always seems to be Rin in more ways than one.

Of course, the whole thing is open to a lot of interpretation and some suggest he may have been a bit half hearted in killing Shirou, or that his obligations as a Counter Guardian got in the way and so on.

Oh, thanks for the explanation. This had been bugging me for a while. I guess I did miss his mention that a command seal had been used, but I still think he had the best chance the moment he broke it off with Rin. With his strength, he could easily incapacitate Rin and kill Shiroe.

[Lorhand]

Spoiler for UBW:

Destroying each petal deals damage to its user... I think.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Mentar

And once again I felt the power of "beauty forgives". Was I the only one who thought "what kind of idiot would cheat on someone looking like her?", especially since Medea was supposed to turn evil only _after_ she was deserted?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder?

[bakato]

Can someone confirm this for me? Although this is a bit later, is it theoretically possible for Archer to beat Gilgamesh? I know Gilgamesh has Ea, which can't be copied with UBW, but it should be possible for Archer to stop him from using it, right?

Also, regarding the route in the original anime, why did Archer lose to Berserker? Was it because he was trying to hide his identity?

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by bakato

Can someone confirm this for me? Although this is a bit later, is it theoretically possible for Archer to beat Gilgamesh? I know Gilgamesh has Ea, which can't be copied with UBW, but it should be possible for Archer to stop him from using it, right?

Also, regarding the route in the original anime, why did Archer lose to Berserker? Was it because he was trying to hide his identity?

If Gilgamesh manages to swallow his pride and admits to himself that UBW counters Gate of Babylon's weapon spam perfectly, which he only did when it was already too late against Shirou, he'll always win. He probably wouldn't underestimate a Servant like Archer, like he underestimated Shirou.

Archer lost because he probably can't kill a fully functioning Berserker 12 times. He did it six times in the novel and five times in the anime.