3 years already and still shedding a tear

[otacu]

Originally Posted by monstert

Well, I'm glad she didn't. Katejina was just simply annoying.

Agreed. Katejina was annoying. For no apparent reason she turned from total-pacifism to psycho-warmonger. I didn't get why... her character was incomplete and misused.

I'm glad there is a more balanced judgement of Fllay now... back in the days the forums were filled with insults.
I always dream how much better would have been GSD with Fllay.

[tritoch]

Katejina fell in love Cronicle. Same goes for Flay, I thought at the end of it, Flay and Rau really had it going, too bad, Flay isn't a gundam pilot and Rau isn't as good of man as Cronicle was.

Katejina kicked ass in V Gundam. She didn't die in the end to boot (even after killing so much of the shrike team on her own) just proves how strong she is.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by tritoch

Katejina fell in love Cronicle. Same goes for Flay, I thought at the end of it, Flay and Rau really had it going, too bad, Flay isn't a gundam pilot and Rau isn't as good of man as Cronicle was.

Katejina kicked ass in V Gundam. She didn't die in the end to boot (even after killing so much of the shrike team on her own) just proves how strong she is.

She fell in love? She was laughing like a psycho, happy that Cronicle and Usso were fighting to death! And didn't seem that bothered when Cronicle lost.

[monster]

Originally Posted by otacu

I always dream how much better would have been GSD with Fllay.

I started doing that ever since phase 6(?) when I realized Kira was going to be in GSD.

Originally Posted by tritoch

Katejina fell in love Cronicle. Same goes for Flay, I thought at the end of it, Flay and Rau really had it going, too bad, Flay isn't a gundam pilot and Rau isn't as good of man as Cronicle was.

No, Fllay actually thought of Rau as like her father. But I don't think she ever actually come to love him in anyway.

She didn't die in the end to boot (even after killing so much of the shrike team on her own) just proves how strong she is.

That just shows how pathetic her character had become. In my opinion, she got the worst ending of all memorable characters in Victory. I almost pity her.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by otacu

She was laughing like a psycho, happy that Cronicle and Usso were fighting to death! And didn't seem that bothered when Cronicle lost.

Katejina was always a bit selfish, and then this started to worsen after she became a pilot and started to build an ego. But she was in love with Chronicle. How do you figure she wasn;t bothered by it? Why did she start shouting his name out when he started to fall after Usso shot him down? After that, she snapped (not the crazy, screaming snap but the quiet, silent type of snap). The whole crazy/psycho thing started when Shakti's song from Angel Halo started messing with her head. You can tell because that's when her behavior became erratic, and you can especially tell because her form of speach changed, like Fuala's did when shewent off the deep end before becoming the pilot of the Zanneck.

[Demongod86]

I never was sure how people considered Fllay to be so ridiculously human. Granted, she wasn't a quintessential ideal like Lacus was, but she was definitely no girl-next-door figure either. She started off as a complete coordinator-hating snob (although she grew up in Orb territories, where coordies and nats live side by side so WTF), and when Rau thxed her dad, she went completely off the wall into what I'd definitely consider beyond your average human-traits exhibiting character.

Yes, Lacus is a living ideal. She is more than human because she IMHO was created to show what every girl should be. Soft-spoken, nonmalicious, intelligent, demure, classy, intuitive, beautiful, and supportive, with Kira holding many of those same traits for guys. And I definitely see some people more akin to Lacus than Fllay. I consider the good picks of people the Kiras and Lacuses, and the slutty girls the Fllays. So I wouldn't really say Fllay is more human than Lacus. Lacus is an exaggeration of the classier girls, Fllay is EQUALLY exaggerated in terms of the less intellectual versions of females.

And cmon, if Fllay survived, where would she go? Back with Sai? Maybe forget it all and go back to Orb and live as a ward of the state? Were people really expecting all of the Kira/Lacus development in SEED to simply be erased? Hello...Kira was the only one who befriended Lacus on Archangel (ep 8), Lacus heals Kira physically (and especially psychologically) (ep 32/33 was it?) and gives him Freedom (34), then Kira basically becomes Lacus's knight in shining armor from then unto forever (or until otherwise noted).

Hell, Fllay committed a few sins in the desert arc as well, EG turning Kira into a raging berserker and mind (and body) raping him. I'd say she definitely had a punishment coming, sooner or later. Same thing with Shinn...he didn't get soundly beat for the entire series, then got his in ep 50. It'd be wishful thinking to think that Fllay would make it off the hook. She's dead, and frankly, I think it's for the better. Kira x Lacus is--literally--the most ideal pairing you could have, because it's a pairing of two quintessential ideals.

And I remember there was this one pairings chart which listed Lacus as Goddess and Kira as GOD. That's pretty much how it goes, and frankly, I like those types of characters more than any other kind. Forget the damn destructive flaws...frankly, I like the hero types of characters, EG Kira, Tidus, Lacus, Yuna, etc...

[Arimfe]

Well hello there Lacus fanboy.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And cmon, if Fllay survived, where would she go? Back with Sai? Maybe forget it all and go back to Orb and live as a ward of the state? Were people really expecting all of the Kira/Lacus development in SEED to simply be erased?

Yes...apparently as much as you yourself erased the Kira/Fllay developement.

and gives him Freedom (34), then Kira basically becomes Lacus's knight in shining armor from then unto forever (or until otherwise noted).

What is this? The "ZOMG I give you gundam, you give me your eternally grateful soul" argument? Very funny.

Lacus heals Kira physically (and especially psychologically) (ep 32/33 was it?)

Fllay gave him sex

Hello...Kira was the only one who befriended Lacus on Archangel (ep 8),

Oh friendship...compared to what? Kira's first crush was with Fllay though

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Originally Posted by monstert

Well, I'm glad she didn't. Katejina was just simply annoying. Although that's true, I hated Rau just at that moment for taking the time to kill bystanders. I mean he preached about how Kira should die, yet when he got the chance while Kira was distracted, he didn't try to shoot him.

I guess they wanted to make Rau more sinister, evil-villain-like who wanted to make people suffer as much as just destroying them in the end (the way he purposely gave the EAF the N-Jammer Canceller just so they could use nukes and end up killing more Coordinators and then the Coordinators killing more Naturals with GENESIS and such).

[monster]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

I guess they wanted to make Rau more sinister, evil-villain-like who wanted to make people suffer as much as just destroying them in the end

And that just irks me, and to make it even worse, Fllay had to be the sacrificial lamb. Now of course I understand why it has to be her, it just won't have the same impact for Kira if it were someone else. But that still doesn't make me like it though.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Oh friendship...compared to what? Kira's first crush was with Fllay though

True, Kira was jealous when he heard that Sai gave Fllay a letter...which is totally bogus

And then we later find out that Fllay actually took a liking to Kira. So if anything, the attraction was already there.

Lacus heals Kira physically (and especially psychologically) (ep 32/33 was it?)

Apparently your also erasing where Fllay helped Kira. Sure it wasn't in the ideal way god would allow it but it was something. Your talking about a teenager thrown into round 9 of a fight on the losing side and expect him to pull through that easily? Compared to anyone else Fllay was the one who actually came forth to Kira and comforted him. Plus, add to the part that he has a crush on her. It's Fllay who keeps Kira fighting even though she was driving him for revenge. When Kira is rescued by Lacus, she takes over so in general, both girls helped Kira.

However, when Kira went MIA with Fllay being captured by Rau, its where she starts seeing things from another POV and perhaps realising her errors. Eitherway, I do not doubt that had Kira reunited with Fllay would they rekindle their relationship on a more mature level. The guy was basically thinking about her after he found out she was alive.

And as people have pointed out, it was Fllay again who helped Kira pull through against Rau.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

I never was sure how people considered Fllay to be so ridiculously human. Granted, she wasn't a quintessential ideal like Lacus was, but she was definitely no girl-next-door figure either. She started off as a complete coordinator-hating snob (although she grew up in Orb territories, where coordies and nats live side by side so WTF), and when Rau thxed her dad, she went completely off the wall into what I'd definitely consider beyond your average human-traits exhibiting character.

Fllay was one of the most developed characters of SEED. She really changed during the series. She cried, she suffered, she laughed, she showed us her flaws, she thought about her errors and so on. She was by far the more human and interesting female character. And Kira was the same in SEED we see him develop and growing up. I liked him but in Gseed Destiny he got the "Lacus-disease" and became some kind of cold god without flaws.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Yes, Lacus is a living ideal. She is more than human because she IMHO was created to show what every girl should be. Soft-spoken, nonmalicious, intelligent, demure, classy, intuitive, beautiful, and supportive, with Kira holding many of those same traits for guys. And I definitely see some people more akin to Lacus than Fllay. I consider the good picks of people the Kiras and Lacuses, and the slutty girls the Fllays. So I wouldn't really say Fllay is more human than Lacus. Lacus is an exaggeration of the classier girls, Fllay is EQUALLY exaggerated in terms of the less intellectual versions of females.

Lacus is just a robot that shows no emotions. She acts like a complete naive little girl at first but in reality she always knows what to do, what to say, she know it all. She is a perfect goddess. Like Kira of destiny Lacus has always been flat and one dimensional. There is no internal struggle, there are no emotions working insider her character: from ep 1 to 50 she already know what's her path. Wow how interesting!

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And cmon, if Fllay survived, where would she go? Back with Sai? Maybe forget it all and go back to Orb and live as a ward of the state? Were people really expecting all of the Kira/Lacus development in SEED to simply be erased? Hello...Kira was the only one who befriended Lacus on Archangel (ep 8), Lacus heals Kira physically (and especially psychologically) (ep 32/33 was it?) and gives him Freedom (34), then Kira basically becomes Lacus's knight in shining armor from then unto forever (or until otherwise noted).

Had Fllay survived he would have happily lived on with Kira. Forget about Lacus, he was all about Fllay. She was her first crush, her first girl, the person that helped him and give him a reason to fight when he was alone.... and he loved her. He knew he was using her but he still loved her. Near the MIA incident Kira was the only one in Orb that cared about Fllay, he knew that she was alone and without family: just like him. He understood that they have many similarities (At that time... before Lacus's brainwashing). And Fllay was aware of that. When she saw him so caring and kind she felt guilty of how she treated him before and yelled at him... in a way she thought she didn't deserved him. Kira knowing the situation (and he was obivously in love) said that they will restart when he will come back from the fight (but he went MIA). So Lacus gave him the big gundam? So what? In the end when Lacus tried to kiss Kira, he refused. He was still loving Fllay.
Kira wasn't Lacus's knight in shining armor he simply was a war puppet to use for her ideals.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Hell, Fllay committed a few sins in the desert arc as well, EG turning Kira into a raging berserker and mind (and body) raping him. I'd say she definitely had a punishment coming, sooner or later. Same thing with Shinn...he didn't get soundly beat for the entire series, then got his in ep 50. It'd be wishful thinking to think that Fllay would make it off the hook. She's dead, and frankly, I think it's for the better. Kira x Lacus is--literally--the most ideal pairing you could have, because it's a pairing of two quintessential ideals.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And I remember there was this one pairings chart which listed Lacus as Goddess and Kira as GOD. That's pretty much how it goes, and frankly, I like those types of characters more than any other kind. Forget the damn destructive flaws...frankly, I like the hero types of characters, EG Kira, Tidus, Lacus, Yuna, etc...

Even Lacus has mind raped Kira. Right now Kira is just a doll in the hands of Lacus. They are both flat and boring. Yes right now they are God and Goddess.... man, talk about fanboysm! Is it really interesting to see such flat, perfect and overpowered characters?

[Schneizel]

Demongod86 just successfully listed why Fllay is so interesting and why she's realistic while expressing his hatred for her. Everyone applaud him.

Kira x Lacus is--literally--the most ideal pairing you could have, because it's a pairing of two quintessential ideals.

Uhh what ideals? Lacus just goes "Kira!" and Kira nods his head. Wow that's some deep shit there.

What can be determined from Demongod86's love of the ideal non-humans aka Kira and Lacus is that he has nothing in his life and wishes he could be above human like Kira and Lacus are and that everyone would listen to him/his ideals and have a kickass robot to beat up people who don't think like him and his girlfriend and live an ideal peace-protecting life off in Neverland and solve every problem by launching from Eternal with vestige playing. You fanboys have no life want to be just like your perfect hero Kira, because he's so perfect and he's everything, and you are in contrast nothing. Ironically, another person who I can think of that ultimately ended up with nothing was this certain girl named Fllay. Out of your disgust from being able to think yourself anything like her, who poisoned your precious perfect idealistic hero's mind and kept him from his true princess, comes hatred. Oops, did I go to far?

[D a m i e n]

The if Fllay had survived it would have wiped the whole kira/lacus devellopement is kinda irrevelant. it erase the whole kira/Fllay devellopement fom before but that has already been stated. It s also erasing the whole athrun/Lacus devellopement, they have grown together and were bound to get married. suddently out of a plot hole we get kira ported from earth to a space colony (how did the blind guy knew Kira was THE GUY and knew he had to send him to Lacus rather than a regular hospital, but that is out of the topic ). So suddently Kira ends up in front of Lacus, and whoua in just 1 day she forget all the years with Athrun (i do remembe a scene when athrun go to war and one try to kiss the other but it ends on a kiss on the cheeck cant remember who initiate the kiss but if it was Athrun it might be revelant that she wasnt really in love with him but anyway...) she can forsake years in 1 day and give a guy that came out of nowhere an ultra secret prototype gundam.... whoua just Whouaa

By the way thanks for attention to the thread it s nice to see even years after GS some people still concider Fllay an interresting character, it s how you can know character designer did a good job on a character... But reguarding my question about the funky music?? anyone could help me?

[Last_Hope]

It´s also a shame that they left out Fllay totally in Destiny. Atleast when Kira fought Rey I thought he would reminisce some about her. But no.

They even wasted the potential of a dead character in Destiny.


D a m i e n//
The funky music. Could it be "Aku no 3 heiki" from the third SEED OST perhaps...?

[srb]

Hell, Fllay committed a few sins in the desert arc as well, EG turning Kira into a raging berserker and mind (and body) raping him.

Raping? Kira looked like quite the active participant - in the Special Edition, Frey was in a submissive position below Kira during the act itself.

Due to her own mental status there, the only person Frey raped was herself.

[Demongod86]

Ehhhh? Fllay was the one after teh secks. And how did Lacus mindrape Kira? Apparently in SEED, he was all confused and crying, and now in GSD, he ascended to a higher level and became pwnasaurus rex. Fllay had flaws, and those flaws carried her to her grave. No, changing after the fact is not enough. Hey look, a guy kills a kid then realizes how wrong he was. Tough shit, he's still getting 20 years.

The way the Kira/Fllay relationship can be summed up is this:

"Fight, Kira. Fight, fight and die. That is the only way I can forgive you."

Yeah, suuure...human? Fllay was off the wall the wrong way as much as Lacus was off the wall the right way. Just because she has flaws doesn't mean jack shit. Oh no, she has flaws, whoopty fricking doo. I still find it easier to believe Lacus's jedi-master intuition rather than Fllay's utter hysteria, and then her complete turnaround.

Also, Lacus herself erased most of the Kira x Fllay stuff. Heck, Kira DUMPED Fllay in ep 28 and she ran off crying, remember? She did too much crap earlier on to simply have it all be wiped off the slate and come back alive.

The person I think SHOULD have survived was Natale, so we could see her on AA in GSD dishing out teh pwnage.

[otacu]

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Ehhhh? Fllay was the one after teh secks.

Yeah right... Kira was obviously gay, right? Kira always had a crush on Fllay and he was really happy to have someone near him when he was all alone.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

And how did Lacus mindrape Kira? Apparently in SEED, he was all confused and crying, and now in GSD, he ascended to a higher level and became pwnasaurus rex. Fllay had flaws, and those flaws carried her to her grave. No, changing after the fact is not enough. Hey look, a guy kills a kid then realizes how wrong he was. Tough shit, he's still getting 20 years.

Kira was mindraped by miss-perfection Lacus. Her sweetalks, her absolute sense of justice, her flawless speeches.... she used him to fight for her own plan. Until the end of SEED Kira mantained his emotions but just before GSD i guess Lacus performed surgery on him and removed his brain so she could have the mindless bodyguard puppy she needed. Athrun was lucky to have his engagement broken.... he would have ended up like Kira. At least Athrun in Gsd was a human being not a robot.
Fllay didn't kill anybody. If you take into account indirect killing Lacus could be accused of genocide. Fllay had flaws but this is what storytelling should be: overcoming the flaws of the characters and let them improve. That's why Kira made errors and realized what to do in the end, same with Athrun, same with Fllay.... not Lacus... Lacus was right and perfect from the beginning. Talk about boring and flat characters...

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The way the Kira/Fllay relationship can be summed up is this:
"Fight, Kira. Fight, fight and die. That is the only way I can forgive you."

Yeah right... you missed all the part from ep 26 on. Really. I could sum the Kira/Lacus relationship as this:
"Fight, Kira, Fight for my ideals. You don't have to use your brain... i'm the one with the brain here".

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Yeah, suuure...human? Fllay was off the wall the wrong way as much as Lacus was off the wall the right way. Just because she has flaws doesn't mean jack shit. Oh no, she has flaws, whoopty fricking doo. I still find it easier to believe Lacus's jedi-master intuition rather than Fllay's utter hysteria, and then her complete turnaround.

Yeah right, in a couple of days she only lost her family, her friends, and was thrown in a war with nowhere to go... it's not strange for a girl to have such a reaction. But maybe Lacus was right after all: "Oh, dad is dead? Oh, well i still have my servants to continue my plan."

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Also, Lacus herself erased most of the Kira x Fllay stuff. Heck, Kira DUMPED Fllay in ep 28 and she ran off crying, remember? She did too much crap earlier on to simply have it all be wiped off the slate and come back alive.

Kira dumped Fllay????? What the hell are you talking about? Kira wanted to restart their relationship since they both were at fault in the beginning. She ran off crying cause she realized that Kira was aware of her intentions and still cared about her. When Kira was back and discovered Fllay was alive he didn't have the face of one who had dumped a girl! He was trying to get her back with all his might. And when Lacus tried to kiss him on Eternal he refused. I guess you really need to rewatch SEED...

Originally Posted by Demongod86

The person I think SHOULD have survived was Natale, so we could see her on AA in GSD dishing out teh pwnage.

Natarle was great! But still i enjoyed her epic death. It really improved her character. I will always remember her. Just like Mwwu who died at the end of SEED like a hero. The one in GSD is just a fake. I refuse to recognize him.

[vblaze101]

Hmm.............my only thing is that I wish her death wasn't so [Gundam] cliche. It didn't surprise me in the least bit that she died, but seeing something a little more different would have been nice. I dunno....................maybe having her telling Kira she loves him and is sorry and ect.......and when we're about to hear Kira express what feelings he now has come to possess for Flay (which would really interest me since he had been around Lacus and since Fukuda personally said Kira loves neither Flay nor Lacus), Flay gets shot in the back and falls into Kira's arms. There's no music, sound, nor dialogu, but maybe we get to see Flay and Kira speaking to one another just before she dies (for dramatic effect?). Or maybe the way Fukuda had originally wanted her to die...............human bomb that takes Sai's behind with her, lol.

[Demongod86]

I remember in ep 28 that Kira said "Fllay, we shouldn't be together anymore. It was a mistake." or something of that nature. I deleted the eps a while ago for memory conservation, but I don't think she would have run off if Kira still wanted to be with her. And with Lacus "mindraping" Kira, could it be that they agree on something? Or that she simply rubbed off on him? And when Lacus's dad died, she DID cry. Not as hard as she cried when Mia died, but she shed tears nevertheless. And in SEED, Lacus never mindraped Kira. In fact, it was Kira that was looking out for her of his own will when he saved Eternal's ass the first time, and in GSD 39, when he hears Eternal's in trouble, he goes completely ZOMG and superspeeds out there.

As for Fllay, she only lost her father, and perhaps her home (she, being the rich bitch she was may have had another in Orb itself). Fllay went COMPLETELY OFF THE WALL at seeing her father die. And that was IT. It wasn't seeing her home go up in flames, or seeing others die...her dad went boom, and so did her sanity at that moment.

Also, ep 26 onward really doesn't concern me for Kira x Fllay. Why? For the same reason that we all essentially could determine Hamlet's fate when he stabbity-stabbities Polonius through the curtains, or when we learn that Oedipus killed his own father. Fllay mindraped Kira and caused him far more grief than good by that point.

Heck, would Kira be crying so much if not FOR Fllay? It was she that gave him most of his guilty conscience TO BEGIN WITH. Yes, Kira might have been a wuss up to that point, but Fllay more or less pushed him further. It was thanks to Lacus and only Lacus that Kira was healed up and it was Lacus that healed Kira's wounds that she did not herself cause. Blaming Kira for her father's death really hurt him, and Fllay used that guilt to carry whatever affairs she had with Kira through. She essentially played the damsel in distress along with unforgiving bitch part in complete tandem. She was completely manipulative of Kira while she was with him and ONLY LATER did she really feel that she loved him. And by then, well, tough nuts because the damage had been done already and it was Lacus that repaired it.

And for the last time, there was no Lacus brainwashing Kira. The guy honestly fell into an ideal contented sort of love with her. And no, Kira WAS Lacus's knight. He always was the one to take precedence to protect her, like a knight should. And in turn, she could think a little more in relative peace. Yes, Lacus has more brains than Kira does, which isn't to say that Kira has none--he has the second most in the series, and what he lacks in brains compared to Lacus he more than makes up for in battle.

As for the GSD Mwu being a fake, I recognize him as TEH Mwu. Because he is NOT a fortress!

(I guess that means that Niccol IS a ship.)

[Schneizel]

Yes Demongod, then they were going to TALK IT OVER but Kira had to go fight Athrun so he said he'd talk to her when he got back. Paying attention to the details that are only beneficial to yourself is understandable but still stupid.