Macross Delta - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

Last week the episode ended with Delta in a really dire situation, Messer is killed, they are 4 against 6, Walkure can't help right now and Al-Shahal is having many var outbreaks, and this episode starts with... Messer's funeral?
Come on! I'm really starting to dislike how they handle the battles, what happened? did Delta flee? how? it doesn't seem to be the case since the King is personally going to attack Al-shahal, so the Knights were the ones to retreat? why when they had the upper hand?

Yeah, it reminds me of the moment-skip in Gundam IBO. The difference being: in Delta, the moment-skip was used to spare the protagonists, while in IBO it was used to spare the enemies from the MC's murderous wrath .

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Messer remembrance episode.

Spoiler:

Everyone's sad that Messer died especially Kaname. Guess she did love him. She is not the only one as Chuck's sister is crying. The team performs a Ragnan ritual speeding Messer to the afterlife.

Spoiler for answer:

Kaname was indeed very sad, but she rather then mourning she was showing lot of concern how Arad feel about Messer's death, knowing they were close.

Well, I doubt we will ever get exact classification of relationship between Kaname and Messer and will remain ambigious to the end.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Yeah, it reminds me of the moment-skip in Gundam IBO. The difference being: in Delta, the moment-skip was used to spare the protagonists, while in IBO it was used to spare the enemies from the MC's murderous wrath .

Guys... did you pay attention at all?
Heinz is out. KO. No Heinz, no Var, no control over Al-Shahal forces.
Keith's fighter is mostly out, others are damaged. Delta is still OK, except for Messer (obviously), and three Walküre are still perfectly able to sing.

The Knights did the smart thing and went home.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Guys... did you pay attention at all?
Heinz is out. KO. No Heinz, no Var, no control over Al-Shahal forces.
Keith's fighter is mostly out, others are damaged. Delta is still OK, except for Messer (obviously), and three Walküre are still perfectly able to sing.

The Knights did the smart thing and went home.

And it's still 4 vs 6, Al Shahal forces still need time to recuperate, and when it comes to fighting, Walkure's song is no more than annoyance to the knights. The smart thing to do would be the knights attempting to take out the Walkure once and for all by a hit-and-run attack (using missile burst by all the fighters to Walkure's direction or something) instead of just turning tails and retreat. Also, did all Windermere fighters got damaged? I'm not sure about that.

Also, my stress is the moment-skip. You can always do some fill-in-the-banks later on, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment-skip happened (similar to that one moment in IBO).

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, my stress is the moment-skip. You can always do some fill-in-the-banks later on, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment-skip happened (similar to that one moment in IBO).

This is exactly my problem, it's not that one or the other side escaped but that they didn't show how or what happened.

And for the record Herman, Cassim, Keith and one of the twins (or was it Bogue?) didn't get their valkyries damaged so they could have done something before the local NUNS forced arrived.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Spoiler for answer:

Kaname was indeed very sad, but she rather then mourning she was showing lot of concern how Arad feel about Messer's death, knowing they were close.

Well, I doubt we will ever get exact classification of relationship between Kaname and Messer and will remain ambigious to the end.

Spoiler for answer:

Well I noticed that aside from Chuck's sister Kaname was the only other person to cry for Messer, she started to tear up at the funeral and then she openly cried at the end when she started singing.

By the way, because they used Remember 16 in this episode some people were undoubtedly reminded of what happened to Physica in Macross 7 and are having some fun with it

Images

Remember 16

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Thousand Mistress]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

「いずれ時間など…」
Personally I'm understanding this as "Soon time won't matter." (Mostly because Keith keeps going on about "omg we have no tiiiime, Roid you're too slooooow") But I'm sure we'll find out sooner or later (hah).

I can pretty much confirm this. It's the same context.
Sadly though with Keith being persistent, one way or another they're going to lose something. Roid somehow has that prediction. Also all of a sudden Heinz's father is back to normal and is commanding a ship?? Here I thought he was bedridden but war sorta fueled him to get back on shape xD He must be that annoyed.

Some people have been speculating that Delta squadron could be a disadvantage at this point but I took some consideration on that part. Keith's unit is kinda damaged and it seems like he's not going to sortie anytime soon, Bogue and the others covering up for that.

And if Heinz suddenly stops singing because he got tired, they'd definitely lose. Messer's death is another fuel for the squadron's revenge, Hayate most likely leading that.

[Thess]

Kaname was bottling up her feelings. That's why in the ending had Mikumo and Freyja (plus Reina and Makina, I guess) helping her to reach catharsis over her loss . She was trying to keep herself together and act strong as the Mom figure of the team and the leader. It had nothing to do with Arad specifically, but something to do with her self-imposed role as leader of Walkure. Walkure showed her it was okay to grieve.

(It's those little moments of why I enjoy Walkure cast over the other characters, such wonderful subtle comradeship!).

[yanzzy5]

Well that was surprising I thought messer died via head shot considering how much blood spurted out, I guess his g-suit must have been really tight on his legs.

[Thousand Mistress]

Originally Posted by yanzzy5

Well that was surprising I thought messer died via head shot considering how much blood spurted out, I guess his g-suit must have been really tight on his legs.

The angle of the shot in ep 10 somehow did make it seem it was a headshot. Good job animators.

The shoulder areas of the chair gave it away...let's just say he was "shot through the heart". xD Oh, in concern to Messer's death, does anyone think the coffin is a bit small? I do think that because he probably "exploded" to smithereens after the laser shot, what was left of him was put inside the box.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And it's still 4 vs 6, Al Shahal forces still need time to recuperate, and when it comes to fighting, Walkure's song is no more than annoyance to the knights. The smart thing to do would be the knights attempting to take out the Walkure once and for all by a hit-and-run attack (using missile burst by all the fighters to Walkure's direction or something) instead of just turning tails and retreat. Also, did all Windermere fighters got damaged? I'm not sure about that.

Also, my stress is the moment-skip. You can always do some fill-in-the-banks later on, but that doesn't change the fact that the moment-skip happened (similar to that one moment in IBO).

But there's no point in trying to do a hit and run attack and risk losing lives and mechs when they're fully aware that the remaining Delta fighters would protect the Walküre with their lives, and that the local forces could be there anytime.

The reason they went there in the first place was to secure the ruins. Without Heinz they're just some guys in fancy mechs with their leader/ace mostly out of action, they have no chance to accomplish their mission. So they kind of shrugged and went home.

Originally Posted by Thousand Mistress

Also all of a sudden Heinz's father is back to normal and is commanding a ship?? Here I thought he was bedridden but war sorta fueled him to get back on shape xD He must be that annoyed.

What fueled him was the news about the ship being 60% operational. He's still very much old/sick, I'm sure he won't survive the upcoming episode...

And yes, without Heinz they're pretty much done for. That's one reason why Roid is so worried (and perhaps that he genuinely likes Heinz), while Keith is pushing for an all-out offensive to succeed asap.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

But there's no point in trying to do a hit and run attack and risk losing lives and mechs when they're fully aware that the remaining Delta fighters would protect the Walküre with their lives,...

Throw most of your effective arsenal in Walkure’s direction (before fleeing) and see if it hits. That’s certainly not a pointless move if that action has the chance to eliminate Walkure or kill some of them or wound them to the point of not being able to sing for a considerable period of time. Considering how Walkure has become the thorn for Windermere’s Var operations all this time, that move certainly worth it. But I understand that this is anime and characters often not doing the best action. In this case, Bogue has the right idea: he almost always goes after Walkure any chance he gets.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

...and that the local forces could be there anytime.

No, they can’t. It’s Windermere that can get away any time after launching their (hypothetical) attacks to Walkure while the local forces still need time recuperating from Vars. We have seen how regular soldiers still need time to pick themselves up after getting Vars-ed, let alone ready for battle (unless you’re Messer).

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

The reason they went there in the first place was to secure the ruins. Without Heinz they're just some guys in fancy mechs with their leader/ace mostly out of action, they have no chance to accomplish their mission. So they kind of shrugged and went home.

More reason to use this chance to hit Walkure when two of them are KO-ed and one of them received a blow to her psyche and Mirage and Hayate (without Frei's singing) being inferior pilots to the available knights at that moment.

But anyway, at this point, I’d say any kind of logical argument goes since we don’t actually know what happened or what could’ve happened. And again, that’s my (and Dash_Hunter’s) main problem about this episode: the moment-skip which took place during the part where we want to know exactly what happened. No matter what the medium, a moment-skip in the middle of a battle/clash/conflict is almost always a poor decision in a story since it reduces narrative clarity and cuts the flow of the narrative, unless the author use that skip for something story-related.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Throw most of your effective arsenal in Walkure’s direction (before fleeing) and see if it hits. That’s certainly not a pointless move if that action has the chance to eliminate Walkure or kill some of them or wound them to the point of not being able to sing for a considerable period of time. Considering how Walkure has become the thorn for Windermere’s Var operations all this time, that move certainly worth it. But I understand that this is anime and characters often not doing the best action. In this case, Bogue has the right idea: he almost always goes after Walkure any chance he gets.

And Bogue is regularly chastised as being too hot-headed, and it wasn't only once that he got into trouble because of it. The only reason he's still alive is that Hayate decided not to kill him last time, on Kitty Planet.

They tried to target the Walküre once after their respective singers went down, they didn't succeed, and ended up with Keith's fighter out of the game for their trouble. There was no point in trying further. That's not what they were there for. Not to mention Keith is aware of the huge-ass Protoculture ship they're repairing, and how it's just a matter of time until it's operational enough to move. There was no point in risking his own life, and the lives of his men, on something that they can do in a few days or maybe weeks (day, as it turned out) with much better chances.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

No, they can’t. It’s Windermere that can get away any time after launching their (hypothetical) attacks to Walkure while the local forces still need time recuperating from Vars. We have seen how regular soldiers still need time to pick themselves up after getting Vars-ed, let alone ready for battle (unless you’re Messer).

The Al-Shahal NUNS forces were operational in this episode, and it's more than likely that they had soldiers who were deployable. (Since not everyone is affected by Var, not to the same extent.) Any number of allied fighters who appear on the scene will put the Knights in disadvantage. And again, they weren't there simply to fight the Delta squadron or anyone else.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

But anyway, at this point, I’d say any kind of logical argument goes since we don’t actually know what happened or what could’ve happened. And again, that’s my (and Dash_Hunter’s) main problem about this episode: the moment-skip which took place during the part where we want to know exactly what happened. No matter what the medium, a moment-skip in the middle of a battle/clash/conflict is almost always a poor decision in a story since it reduces narrative clarity and cuts the flow of the narrative, unless the author use that skip for something story-related.

We clearly disagreeing on this in this case. The missing scene you're referring to in IBO was stupid indeed, and there are a number of missing scenes for convenience, but in this particular case I think it was perfectly obvious what happened and there would have been no point in dwelling any longer on it.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

And Bogue is regularly chastised as being too hot-headed, and it wasn't only once that he got into trouble because of it. The only reason he's still alive is that Hayate decided not to kill him last time, on Kitty Planet.

They tried to target the Walküre once after their respective singers went down, they didn't succeed, and ended up with Keith's fighter out of the game for their trouble. There was no point in trying further. That's not what they were there for. Not to mention Keith is aware of the huge-ass Protoculture ship they're repairing, and how it's just a matter of time until it's operational enough to move. There was no point in risking his own life, and the lives of his men, on something that they can do in a few days or maybe weeks (day, as it turned out) with much better chances.

The Al-Shahal NUNS forces were operational in this episode, and it's more than likely that they had soldiers who were deployable. (Since not everyone is affected by Var, not to the same extent.) Any number of allied fighters who appear on the scene will put the Knights in disadvantage. And again, they weren't there simply to fight the Delta squadron or anyone else.

Like I said, any kind of argument goes since we don't know what the hell is going on during that skip. I already pointed mine, and you yours.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

The missing scene you're referring to in IBO was stupid indeed, and there are a number of missing scenes for convenience, but in this particular case I think it was perfectly obvious what happened and there would have been no point in dwelling any longer on it.

I'd say they're equally stupid. But at least IBO clearly showed that Carta still has her boys in MSs to help her escape at that point. So it's easier for the audience to fill-in-the-blanks on how she can get away from the Gundam's grip (and IBO actually showed the other MSs still helping Carta get away after the moment-skip). In this episode of Delta, we cut to funeral after a climactic/cliffhanger moment in the middle of a fight, making it feels more jarring. If I have to choose between the two, I'd chose IBO's moment-skip that does it better (I still don't like it though).

[magnuskn]

Well, seems the show is finally kicking into high gear. No step forward on the romance front, but at this point, who cares?

I seriously am not perturbed by the Knights just going home after last episode. They achieved their objective, they obviously have greater stuff in mind, like enslaving an entire sector under the hollow premise of "Manifest Destiny".

When the subs are out, there will be more to say on the details.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I seriously am not perturbed by the Knights just going home after last episode. They achieved their objective

Well, according to Kuromitsu, they failed their mission. Which one is the right one? Oh well, I'll just wait for that sub.

[yanzzy5]

Man the last episode really did leave us with a lot of questions what are mikumo, freiya and trap boy's sickness, why did the aerial knights back off when their enemy (who will hinder them in their future plans) are in a serious disadvantage, why is messer plane still intact despite having dead pilot and a turned off VI, what is that green stream that messer, keith and hayate shown and what is required to activate it, and Does Con-vaart hate J-pop.

[Thousand Mistress]

Originally Posted by yanzzy5

Man the last episode really did leave us with a lot of questions what are mikumo, freiya and trap boy's sickness, why did the aerial knights back off when their enemy (who will hinder them in their future plans) are in a serious disadvantage, why is messer plane still intact despite having dead pilot and a turned off VI, what is that green stream that messer, keith and hayate shown and what is required to activate it, and Does Con-vaart hate J-pop.

Mikumo, Freyja and Heinz resonated when they sang at the same time in front of that protoculture thingy, and they were affected by what they saw during that time. Not necessarily a sickness, more like it drained their energy to the point that they almost could not sing. But looks like they are somehow in a good shape judging from the ep's last scenes. Mikumo and Freya are the ones that have the most intense abilities to counter fold waves from Heinz, and it almost put them to strain.

The Aerial Knights had to back off cause they knew that someone from the enemy squad was killed and they'd probably get rekt if they fight back. We all know that even in a disadvantage, an angry Hayate would most likely chase off Keith getting revenge. Though that was left off for the upcoming episodes.

As for the green stream, is that the one you meant when they were chasing each other at high speeds? Keith uses his runes to do that, Hayate uses the fold crystal that he has + Freyja singing, and for Messer he uses his Var to make his Valkyrie fly in a very fast rate (the way he managed to hit the drones were like wow).

...and who knows, Bogue must really, really like J-pop.

[dmaxzero]

Eh? I see angry Hayate as a dead Hayate some how.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by dmaxzero

Eh? I see angry Hayate as a dead Hayate some how.

Yeah, no matter how angry he is, without Frei's singing-boost, I don't think he's on the level of the knights right now (maybe except for Bogue), and sheer anger will just make him reckless and got him KIA. Remember that scene where he got knocked-out by Var-ed NUNS pilot even after his "glorious war cry" to protect Freyja? Like a good jedi master said: he needs more training.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, seems the show is finally kicking into high gear. No step forward on the romance front, but at this point, who cares?

Romance is the least interesting the thing in this show. I mean I love the relationships between the characters, but I can't say I'm interested if they hooked up. As long this triangle stuff doesn't hurt the great friendship between Freyja and Hayate, I couldn't care less about who they date.