Monogatari Series Second Season - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll (Hitagi End IV)

[CptChaos]

Tsubasa looks fabulous with her striped hair, and we finally got to hear her signature sentence again. Looking forward to their talk.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Careful there Gaén might be listening

By the way, after listening to their duet, I am sold to Kaiki x Hitagi ship

I wouldn't go that far with Kaiki and Hitagi, if anybody is going to take Hitagi away from Araragi, it is Hanekawa.

After watching this episode, I really felt that they dragged out this arc so long. You could really see the producers stretching it out on the last few episodes. Gaen surprisingly hasn't shown up that much in this arc considering she play a critical part of making Nadeko a God.

[GDB]

I'm just waiting for Ougi to show up. If I'm not mistaken, she's shown up in every other arc so far this season, so I don't expect this arc to be an exception. Especially since she seemed to be the one responsible for putting Nadeko on the path of becoming a god.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by GDB

I'm just waiting for Ougi to show up. If I'm not mistaken, she's shown up in every other arc so far this season, so I don't expect this arc to be an exception. Especially since she seemed to be the one responsible for putting Nadeko on the path of becoming a god.

Correct, Ougi Oshino is the one mostly responsible. She is the mastermind behind this. Of course she does not take 100 percent of the blame. As I see it, Ougi Oshino holds about 60 percent. 15 percent goes to Kaiki for deliberately exposing Nadeko to oddities. Gaen about 10 because it was her amulet or talismen whatever you prefer to all it that turned Nadeko into a God. Then finally it is Nadeko herself with 10 percent as there wasn't really any snake that convinced her to do what she did. Nadeko being so dependent on Araragi then finding out that he was taken by Hitagi cause her to be delusional.


What I find awfully off about Gaen is to why she attempted to stop Kaiki as Kaiki's only reason for deceiving Nadeko is to protect Kaburu, Gaen's niece.

[GDB]

I don't think it's fair to blame Kaiki. He sold charms, which for the most part didn't do anything. As far as we know, Nadeko was the only one affected by an oddity (not counting the ones that were affecting her going back to their casters) despite all the charms he sold. I'd put 5 of those to Nadeko, and the other 10 to Ougi. She's the one who seemed to screw with Nadeko's mind to "create" the snake in the first place.

I mean, if you're going to blame Kaiki, you might as well blame Araragi too. He saved her from the snakes, which allowed her to become a god later. Plus, he was the impetus for her insanity. Well, him and Senjougahara. Should we blame her too?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by GDB

I'm just waiting for Ougi to show up. If I'm not mistaken, she's shown up in every other arc so far this season, so I don't expect this arc to be an exception. Especially since she seemed to be the one responsible for putting Nadeko on the path of becoming a god.

I'm pretty sure she was the one who sent that anonymous threat to Kaiki. I can't think of anybody else. She probably wants Araragi dead and can't do kill him herself for one reason or another.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by GDB

I don't think it's fair to blame Kaiki. He sold charms, which for the most part didn't do anything. As far as we know, Nadeko was the only one affected by an oddity (not counting the ones that were affecting her going back to their casters) despite all the charms he sold. I'd put 5 of those to Nadeko, and the other 10 to Ougi. She's the one who seemed to screw with Nadeko's mind to "create" the snake in the first place.

I mean, if you're going to blame Kaiki, you might as well blame Araragi too. He saved her from the snakes, which allowed her to become a god later. Plus, he was the impetus for her insanity. Well, him and Senjougahara. Should we blame her too?

It wasn't about the charms, though that was part of it. The big issue was before that, in the first season about the curses that Sengoku gotten in Nadeko Snake. It was revealed in Karen Bee that Kaiki was the one who sold the curses that affected Sengoku. Kaiki himself didn't deny Hitagi when she noted that he is blamed indirectly. So from that Kaiki indirectly cause the issue with Araragi helping her. Then it can be noted that Kaiki is indirectly blamed for Nadeko sacrificing the snakes in Bakemonogatari. As stated before in the last episode thread 20, a oddity is worst than any weapon that is man made because an oddity is a being with free will. Also, thus far, anyone that had been touched or affected by oddities will continue be affected by oddities because it seems like an encounter is a magnet to more encounters. An oddity will always cause something to happen. Now, is it fair to blame Kaiki for that? No, its indirect blame, but blame nevertheless that must be given in this situation because it is not a minor thing to indirectly cause a potential end of a small town. I like the dude, but hey, he must have known the risk of using oddities to support his livelihood.

As for Araragi and Hitagi, in a way, if they was to be blamed than I say at best 5 percent. Reason being, a woman going berserk due to their male interest having a woman is already heard of in reality, not a normality but occurred (watch Deadly Women on Investigation Discovery Channel, that is some interesting and scary stuff. Do thread lightly when it comes to meeting women). Blaming the victims, Araragi and Hitagi, because they shared the same feelings and became a couple, is pretty weird because Hitagi didn't met her personally so she could not feel or think what would happen if she started a relationship with Araragi and Araragi was not aware of her feelings and thus could not expect what could have happen.

[ndqanh_vn]

Well, I think the whole thing about defining and exact percent of responsibility in this case is, if you excuse me, a bit riddiculous.

The part about involving with Kai leads to further experience with them is because, when you encountered them once, you believe in them. And the more you believe, the easier for them to influence you.

Nadeko's case is complicated. So do any cases in realife. I think a big factor must be contributed to her parents and their parenting method. So does Araragi and everybody around her to adore her like a beautiful doll with no personality, while ignoring how nasty she could be inside. Heck, I think Araragi played a bigger part in this whole dominos of idiotic horror. Kaiki might be the one who indirectly start everything, but without Araragi pulled the final trigger, thing would not quickly explode to this scale.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

I wouldn't go that far with Kaiki and Hitagi, if anybody is going to take Hitagi away from Araragi, it is Hanekawa.

Nah, Tsubasa gave up after Neko-

On the other hand, Hitagi never gave up on Kaiki... not that she is going to end up with him (unless the writer wants to be hated by 1/7th of the fanbase).

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

After watching this episode, I really felt that they dragged out this arc so long. You could really see the producers stretching it out on the last few episodes. Gaen surprisingly hasn't shown up that much in this arc considering she play a critical part of making Nadeko a God.

Well, that was expected, Hitagi is the most popular character among anime viewers, particularly outside Japan.

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Well, that was expected, Hitagi is the most popular character among anime viewers, particularly outside Japan.

She does not appear much in this arc anyways. This is the place for Kaiki to shine.

[AmeNoJaku]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

She does not appear much in this arc anyways. This is the place for Kaiki to shine.

Talks non-stop on the phone with her ex- though

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

I wouldn't go that far with Kaiki and Hitagi, if anybody is going to take Hitagi away from Araragi, it is Hanekawa.

After watching this episode, I really felt that they dragged out this arc so long. You could really see the producers stretching it out on the last few episodes. Gaen surprisingly hasn't shown up that much in this arc considering she play a critical part of making Nadeko a God.

Well, this arc is supposed to be dragged.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku

Nah, Tsubasa gave up after Neko-

She gave up on Araragi, not Senjougahara.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn

Well, I think the whole thing about defining and exact percent of responsibility in this case is, if you excuse me, a bit riddiculous.

The part about involving with Kai leads to further experience with them is because, when you encountered them once, you believe in them. And the more you believe, the easier for them to influence you.

Nadeko's case is complicated. So do any cases in realife. I think a big factor must be contributed to her parents and their parenting method. So does Araragi and everybody around her to adore her like a beautiful doll with no personality, while ignoring how nasty she could be inside. Heck, I think Araragi played a bigger part in this whole dominos of idiotic horror. Kaiki might be the one who indirectly start everything, but without Araragi pulled the final trigger, thing would not quickly explode to this scale.

It is pretty ridicules to assign blame, however, I only did so for a visual prospective. As for Araragi, I cannot fault him at all. I would fault him if he dodge her feelings if Nadeko confess to him that she loved him, but she didn't. Nadeko did not confess her feelings to him, if she did I find that this arc wouldn't happen. Araragi will honestly say what he feels for her if it is romantic or not, the same case with Hanekawa, he will provide closure for the female party. If Nadeko had spoken to Araragi about his girlfriend, then that also could have prevented this arc. Also, Nadeko was influenced by Ougi, however, it was due to her dependent on Araragi that she became delusional finding out that Araragi had Hitagi then led the delusional to becoming a snake telling her to performed her actions. It was her choice to not involved Araragi and choose to follow the advice of the snake. The snake was a delusion, and Araragi told her up front to not mess with the Gaen's talisman. She did the opposite and ate it listening to a snake than the person she loved. Once then Araragi had no choice but to take action, if not him, then others would.

Love is a risk, and unexpected things can happen including this.

[Dop]

I have to admit, some of those black and white "Op Art" inspired backgrounds were a bit rough on the eyes. Really well done, but I know people who if they'd seen that would have had to go and lie down in a darkened room waiting for the migraine to go away.

The 'Blade Runner' background references were pretty neat, though.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by GDB

She gave up on Araragi, not Senjougahara.

Well if you look at Shiro's epilogue, she is working through it, she even said in this episode she partly went on this trip to clear her head.

And don't joke too much lol, I even see things like people finding ways to ship Hanekawa with Kaiki with just those scant 5 minutes of dialogue. Shipping is scary. XD

[novalysis]

Here's the thing. The entire arc and the audience reception to Kaiki reminds me of Kumagawa Misogi from another of Nisio's works. It's almost as if they are the same class of characters that Nisio reaches for when he makes any work. Then again, I've not read or seen all of Nisio's work, so I might be wrong here.

But in many ways, Kaiki is to Monogatari what Kumagawa is to Medaka Box.

In other news, Hanekawa is awesome, and such a simple opinion is such a contentious statement.

[silvercover]

^main difference though is that most of the problems kaiki has done were just indirect(the charms, giving information) or for the direct ones it wasnt serious like the bee was just fake and would have been gone anyway. also as we've learned, kaiki's pretty much helped out hitagi in the past, as well as indirectly fixing/helping araragi's trouble with kegenui(that fake discussion). meanwhile kumagawa does a lot of unnecessary stuff not to mention he's really antagonistic whereas kaiki wasnt interested in fighting.

in reception, well popular is one thing but kaiki didnt really have that much fans til like this arc, whereas kumagawa already snagged quite a lot before we even learned about him.

also id like to say that while kumagawa entertains me, I didnt have any attachments to him more than that. meanwhile I already was getting eager for kaiki before we knew him and yet I still am eager to see more of him after knowing(unlike how kumagawa went for me after knowing him).


its sort of hard to find a character in a similar position with kaiki, I think closest would be... lambdadelta from umineko. their personality is way different, but if you consider how their initial appearance, acts and attitude that screamed "BAD GUY", to how the story direction goes that ends up being actually a good thing, and of course also learning how these guys are "good" people, just that their way of doing things ends up causing problems for both sides.
neither of the two also actually change their character as well, unlike other characters that get from having a bad personality to a more pleasant one, grow from being closed to more open, etc. that changes people's opinion on them which results in more fans.
both also are really only villains when looked at the point of view from the protagonist/good side. when you ignore that though, they actually appear as a decent yet strange guy, or you could say they're much more pleasant/good once compared to the other REAL antagonist.
they resolve conflicts, but not the way the protagonist's side, AND the antagonist side, wanted/liked .