Monogatari Series Second Season - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll (Hitagi End III)

[GDB]

Honestly, I don't see how Kaiki's plan can work without a deus ex machina of Nadeko just not caring anymore. He didn't take Shinobu into account at all, and even if he included her in the car crash, he isn't taking into account that she and Araragi are nearly immortal. Nadeko knows this, so the only way his current plan will work is if she stops caring and just accepts whatever he says without thinking at all.

That said... WHAT'S IN THE BOX (closet)!?

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by omimon

He never did anything wrong, he is just a normal businessman. The charms he sold to the middleschoolers are actual charms. He sold real products, its just that the catch is you need to be a specialist to use it. He never intended people to actually harm each other because of it.

Good guy Kaiki.

I hope that is sarcasm in your enthusiasm. Kaiki is a business man, no doubt about that, but he is more of a con man. Otherwise Hitari would still have her mother. Like a con man, he is only after money, whatever happens is none of his business. No good guy would con middle school kids. A more vivid point is why would his own Sempai needs to keep watch on him despite the feelings he had for her sister. He is only here to trick Nadeko because he wants to protect the child of the woman he holds affection for when he was in college.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

I think Reaper meant that people were insinuating romantic development between Hitagi and Kaiki, not about his good guy credentials persay.

Though on the latter point, can we explain away Tsukihi getting blown in half and the Araragi family entranceway destroyed as a result of his meddling? Everything else I can find a loophole, but not that.

Is what I am saying, there is a clear line between the relationship between the two. It is just a business relationship, one provides the information the other does the job. Kaiki's meddling resulted of Hitari losing her financial wealth and her mother. If anyone is going to develop a romance with Hitari other than Araragi, that is Hanakawa or her father.

[Xero8420]

*sees the OP*
The OP was great and hilarious at the same time, with a decent mix of 90s OP style + random art shifts + Kaiki x Hitagi ship-tease.
KAIKI!!! Y R U BEING TOO AWESOME?!?!

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

I think Reaper meant that people were insinuating romantic development between Hitagi and Kaiki, not about his good guy credentials persay.

Though on the latter point, can we explain away Tsukihi getting blown in half and the Araragi family entranceway destroyed as a result of his meddling? Everything else I can find a loophole, but not that.

Because he's a specialist and Tsukihi is a Kaii. His club mate kills immortals and he was doing her a flavor and in a sense his duty as a specialist. (And gaining a bit of money from it as well.)

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

I hope that is sarcasm in your enthusiasm. Kaiki is a business man, no doubt about that, but he is more of a con man. Otherwise Hitari would still have her mother. Like a con man, he is only after money, whatever happens is none of his business. No good guy would con middle school kids. A more vivid point is why would his own Sempai needs to keep watch on him despite the feelings he had for her sister. He is only here to trick Nadeko because he wants to protect the child of the woman he holds affection for when he was in college.

Did he really con them or were they merely getting what they deserve? Remember what Oshino said, when you try to kill someone you need to pay the price. (Monkey arc). The fact that he only took their money instead of their life is already kindness. As for the whole mother thing I believe that he was doing her a favor. Her mother was destroying their family she needed to be out of their life.

On a lighter note:

Spoiler:

We should've totally been able to look down her dress. DAMN YOU CENSORSHIP!!!

[Altima of the Gates]

Because he's a specialist and Tsukihi is a Kaii. His club mate kills immortals and he was doing her a flavor and in a sense his duty as a specialist. (And gaining a bit of money from it as well.)

True, though that doesn't necessarily make him a good guy technically. That is more neutral territory. Since the damage to the property wasn't necessary, and he is aware of her...ahem...'upfront' methods.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

I hope that is sarcasm in your enthusiasm. Kaiki is a business man, no doubt about that, but he is more of a con man. Otherwise Hitari would still have her mother. Like a con man, he is only after money, whatever happens is none of his business. No good guy would con middle school kids. A more vivid point is why would his own Sempai needs to keep watch on him despite the feelings he had for her sister. He is only here to trick Nadeko because he wants to protect the child of the woman he holds affection for when he was in college.


Is what I am saying, there is a clear line between the relationship between the two. It is just a business relationship, one provides the information the other does the job. Kaiki's meddling resulted of Hitari losing her financial wealth and her mother. If anyone is going to develop a romance with Hitari other than Araragi, that is Hanakawa or her father.

I have no idea what you are talking about. By the time Kaiki showed up Hitagi is already poor and her mother was a lost cause. Kaiki was not responsible for either. Indeed he didn't steal a cent from her.

Though on the latter point, can we explain away Tsukihi getting blown in half and the Araragi family entranceway destroyed as a result of his meddling? Everything else I can find a loophole, but not that.

Look at it from his perspective; to him Tsukihi is a human shaped parasite who is leaching off an innocent family's home pretending to be their daughter. Now, he is no hero so he wasn't going to solve the problem, but he did sell that info to an actual superhero who care about it and will do the job.

You might think it seems extreme, but think about it; 99% of the Oddities in the world are harmful to people one way or another, so much so that there are specialists who run around killing them all no questions asked. The whole "oddities are all harmless" attitude is hardly the norm... Especially since Arargi was nearly killed by nearly all of the ones he met at one point or another.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have no idea what you are talking about. By the time Kaiki showed up Hitagi is already poor and her mother was a lost cause. Kaiki was not responsible for either. Indeed he didn't steal a cent from her.

Hitari's mother was a lost cause. However, her mother and father were still married at the time. It would be unlikely that were to patch things up but it wouldn't hurt to have a chance, but Kaiki ended that.

Spoiler for LIght Novel materials:

Not shown in the anime, but Kaiki was one of the five con artists that taken the wealth of Hitari's family. He was the first and also the main one responsible for the divorce of Hitari's parents. Unlikely that Hitari's mother would recover her sense, but she didn't get the chance.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Look at it from his perspective; to him Tsukihi is a human shaped parasite who is leaching off an innocent family's home pretending to be their daughter. Now, he is no hero so he wasn't going to solve the problem, but he did sell that info to an actual superhero who care about it and will do the job.

You might think it seems extreme, but think about it; 99% of the Oddities in the world are harmful to people one way or another, so much so that there are specialists who run around killing them all no questions asked. The whole "oddities are all harmless" attitude is hardly the norm... Especially since Arargi was nearly killed by nearly all of the ones he met at one point or another.

Regardless of Kaiki's view, he is a main contributor of the incident right now. Nadeko didn't know about the Snake curse until Kaiki sold it to her. If it were not for Kanburu staying in the town of Hitari and Araragi, he would have left them to die along with that entire town but only assist because Kanburu is the child of the woman he has loved. Kanburu's mother was the only person Kaiki loved and thus other relationship with her he will take seriously.

[Altima of the Gates]

We should've totally been able to look down her dress. DAMN YOU CENSORSHIP!!!

*Buy our Blu-rays!~*

[Kanon]

The OP was awesome. Kaiki was awesome. Yotsugi was awesome. Nadeko was awesome. Everything was awesome.

Gotta love Kaiki. As expected, he took the money from Gaen even though he had no intention to abandon the job. . What Yotsugi said about Gaen planning to turn Shinobu into a god was very interesting. Why does this town need a god? Is Gaen trying to fight off Ougi (she's the only other danger I can think of at the moment) or is there a completely different reason like the town attracting oddities?

Kaiki's interaction with Hitagi was great once again. They make a good duo and get along pretty well all things considered. I was surprised to see Hitagi cry, she acts so tough and cold that sometimes I forget she's just a normal girl. There was no way Kaiki would pull out after seeing this.

Kaiki's plan to deceive Nadeko is even more simple than I thought it would be. Nadeko is very gullible and innocent but I don't think she's quite as dumb as he believes she is. I doubt she is going to buy this. The key to deceiving Nadeko is mostly likely in her closet. I bet it's something unexpected like a pile of yaoi doujins she drew herself.

[Tormenk]

This arc is thoroughly enjoyable. Never felt the need to get into the narrator's mind before in Monogatari but trying to understand Kaiki's motivations is really fun since he is a supposed 'bad guy'. And him twisting everything up with his lies.

Plenty of good moments this episode too. Relieved Hitagi, Yotsugi being called out on her acting cute, Kaiki taking thirty minutes to refuse the offer and of course Nadeko proving how broken she is.

Btw, is Onoki a full-fledged kaii? From that scene of her getting Kaiki to buy cake for her it's not entirely clear to me if normal people can react to her.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

Hitari's mother was a lost cause. However, her mother and father were still married at the time. It would be unlikely that were to patch things up but it wouldn't hurt to have a chance, but Kaiki ended that.

Spoiler for LIght Novel materials:

Not shown in the anime, but Kaiki was one of the five con artists that taken the wealth of Hitari's family. He was the first and also the main one responsible for the divorce of Hitari's parents. Unlikely that Hitari's mother would recover her sense, but she didn't get the chance.

Regardless of Kaiki's view, he is a main contributor of the incident right now. Nadeko didn't know about the Snake curse until Kaiki sold it to her. If it were not for Kanburu staying in the town of Hitari and Araragi, he would have left them to die along with that entire town but only assist because Kanburu is the child of the woman he has loved. Kanburu's mother was the only person Kaiki loved and thus other relationship with her he will take seriously.

First of all, it's Hitagi not Hitari. Second, anime viewers know that he was the first no need to spoiler tag it.

Hitagi's parents lost the chance to patch things up the moment she tried to get their daughter raped. Kaiki did what any normal human being that was involved should have done, get the teenage daughter out of a dangerous situation.

Saying that he is the main contributor is like saying guns are what is to blame when someone gets shot instead of the shooter. Hate player not the game. Nadeko was cursed simply because she incurred jealously. Everyone except Kaiki is to blame for what happened to her in Snake arc. The boy for being a pussy and not able to take a rejection, the friend who backstabbed her and Nadeko because she played the victim card.

[Dop]

Great episode, who would have thought from Nisemonogatari that Kaiki would turn out to be so good a character to watch. (people who read the books in advance, I guess!)
Fleecing more money so as to be able to keep donating at the shrine, smart move, but at what cost? And just what terror lies in Nadeko's closet?


But then after I watched the episode, I went back and watched the OP a few more times. Now there's a duet nobody expected.
I think the way they captured that whole 80s/90s feel brilliantly both in the art style and the music makes me wish SHAFT would make an entire series using that style.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by omimon

First of all, it's Hitagi not Hitari. Second, anime viewers know that he was the first no need to spoiler tag it.

Hitagi's parents lost the chance to patch things up the moment she tried to get their daughter raped. Kaiki did what any normal human being that was involved should have done, get the teenage daughter out of a dangerous situation.

Saying that he is the main contributor is like saying guns are what is to blame when someone gets shot instead of the shooter. Hate player not the game. Nadeko was cursed simply because she incurred jealously. Everyone except Kaiki is to blame for what happened to her in Snake arc. The boy for being a pussy and not able to take a rejection, the friend who backstabbed her and Nadeko because she played the victim card.

You say that any normal person would help Hitagi, but would any normal person take a large amount of money to do so? However, you forget that Kaiki didn't original con Hitagi's family because of the situation of her mother. It was when Hitagi lost her weight with crab, he was the first person she went to for help. Instead of helping, he took the money and left without even helping Hitagi with the crab. Kaiki don't do any jobs out of the goodness of his heart, he does it as a mean to obtain a large sum of money with one sole exception. The only thing that makes Kaiki do anything very either no money or of little money if it concerns Kanburu's mother. I am not bringing this sort of information to make Kaiki be hated, I am just reminding to everyone that regardless if he is a interesting guy and his personality quirks makes a good story does not excuse him from what he has done. Its good to see him as an interesting fellow, but that does not mean he should be given a free pass. It has been a long time since college where Kaiki, Gaen, Yozuru, and Oshino where in college. What has he done during that time, why is Gaen, his own Sempai wary about him. Who was it who sold the information about the Phoenix inside Tsuhiki to Yozuru. I severally doubt that Kaiki did know know that Tsuhiki's Phoenix was actually the Dying Bird, a rare harmless oddity that is entirely beneficial to the possessor in that it heals wounds until the possessor dies of natural causes. I believe he was counting on it to make a profit, he knows Yozuru's slight thing for immortal beings like a Phoenix. I don't see any danger of the Dead Bird. He made a profit by selling information to Yozuru about a false oddity knowing that Yozuru would hunt down Tsuhiki.

Comparing oddities to guns is a horrible comparison. The chances of a person encountering oddities are very slim to that of finding a gun or encountering someone with a gun. Oddities are not guns, they are most dangerous than guns as oddities are being themselves. They are not harmless when you leave them alone, better stated that they will cause damage in an encounter unless one knows how to deal with them. They are beings that don't have any sort of laws or rules that binds them to act in a way. They do what they please. Humans were not suppose to encounter oddities because how dangerous they are, yet Kaiki purposely made a profit by introducing oddities to Middle School Kids. He doesn't believe in oddities, but he knows that the chances of the dangerous things occuring are extremely high no matter who encounters them or what kind of person they are.

[SeaDoor]

Oh my. After watching the OP I had to take a break for a good 5 minutes or my head would have exploded. This is NisiOisin at his most insufferable but it is a joy to listen to the VAs chew through the dialog. Me likee!

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I severally doubt that Kaiki did know know that Tsuhiki's Phoenix was actually the Dying Bird, a rare harmless oddity that is entirely beneficial to the possessor in that it heals wounds until the possessor dies of natural causes. I believe he was counting on it to make a profit, he knows Yozuru's slight thing for immortal beings like a Phoenix. I don't see any danger of the Dead Bird. He made a profit by selling information to Yozuru about a false oddity knowing that Yozuru would hunt down Tsuhiki.

And Yozuru hunts down the phoenix because she does it to make the world a better place. She paid for the information and does not personally profit in any way by killing the bird. She does it because she believe it is best for humanity. If you want to accuse Kaiki then you have to also accuse Yozuru of being a psychopath. And if you want to go there then you have to accuse Meme as well, who was going to kill a harmless crab god just because he hates crabs. Your views are entirely emotional and nothing to do with the reality of how oddities threaten the human world.

Kaiki didn't steal Hitagi's money; Hitagi has never accused him of that. She only accused him of not helping her.

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And Yozuru hunts down the phoenix because she does it to make the world a better place. She paid for the information and does not personally profit in any way by killing the bird. She does it because she believe it is best for humanity. If you want to accuse Kaiki then you have to also accuse Yozuru of being a psychopath. And if you want to go there then you have to accuse Meme as well, who was going to kill a harmless crab god just because he hates crabs. Your views are entirely emotional and nothing to do with the reality of how oddities threaten the human world.

Kaiki didn't steal Hitagi's money; Hitagi has never accused him of that. She only accused him of not helping her.

Vallen Chaos Valiant..............did you read my post clearly?

Tsuhiki's oddity was not the Phoenix. I wasn't calling the Phoenix the Dying Bird, the actual name of Tsuhiki's oddity is a cuckoo called the "Dying Bird". She hunted the wrong oddity. I am not sure how you define Yozuru's justice ideology, but it is just as flawed or even a more worst flawed ideology than Karen's justice ideology. Yozuru stated her reason for hunting oddities, its not because they were dangerous (which most are), but because they shouldn't exists in the human world. She feels that all oddities should not exist in the human world and immortal oddities like the Phoenix is the worst because it will continue to exists after dying. The Phoenix and the Dying Bird are very rare passive oddities that only provides benefits and no shape in form harms the human world, in a sense, they are only bad because it benefits one person not the whole. The Phoenix and Dying Birds are similar, yet are only different in one aspect. The Phoenix possess the being and merge with the being retaining the person's personality, while the Dying Bird is heredity, it reincarnate in a womb of a child and possess the child while not merging it is more passive than the Phoenix. The Child is not harm in any way, it provides non stop healing, it does not damage the human world physically but rather mentally because it shouldn't happen because it is not normal.

I don't get what you are stating with Meme killing a poor crab. The crab almost killed Hitagi and took away her weight. Have you been analyzing this series carefully? The ceremony that was done for Hitagi was to peacefully summoned the crab and persuade the crab to give Hitagi's memories and weight back. Meme noted that he hated crabs and killing it may solved some symptoms but not all of it, it is not even a guarantee so killing it would not fully help Hitagi. Meme decided to use force to persuade the crab which he admitted that it is the most effective way to deal with oddities, not killing them. When the crab however acted unpredictably and attacked Hitagi, it proved Meme's statements. Most oddities are dangerous and cause damage towards the human world. We seen that first hand with almost all oddities aside from Tsuhiki's Dying Bird and what is vaguely described of the Phoenix.

Meme's story about oddities are already describe clearly in the anime and over more details in the Light Novel. Meme does not actively just randomly help people, he only helps people who makes the most effort in wanting to get helped, while he does want compensation, he will always help. Among him and his 3 members, he is describe as the more normal person. Yozuru deals with oddities for free, but that is due because her reasons is that all oddities, dangerous or not, should not exist it is a all out kill spree. Gaen, who uses friendship and favors to deal with oddities, but her favors that she asked in return could be very dangerous. Then there is Kaiki who deals with oddities to get money whatever it is selling it to people or taking advantage of people who are victims.



It is stated in the light Novel that Kaiki took the money and left, he did not steal the money, he took it and did nothing in return which is worst. So you are right with that post when he did not steal, rather he did something worst than that. Giving word that he will fix a problem, only to up and leave with the money without doing so.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

It is stated in the light Novel that Kaiki took the money and left, he did not steal the money, he took it and did nothing in return which is worst. So you are right with that post when he did not steal, rather he did something worst than that. Giving word that he will fix a problem, only to up and leave with the money without doing so.

He destroyed the local cult branch. It forced Hitagi's mum to make the choice of either going back to her family or to leave and join the cult leaders at HQ. The mother picked the cult. The choice is made, and Hitagi is better off. Kaiki did a lot of things, it just wasn't what he said he said he would do.

[tsunade666]

that OP. I know its been said again and again but I just can't get that out of my mind while watching the episode. It reminds me of Daimos with Richard and Erica thing. Really classic and awesome OP.

Then the episode itself is awesome. Dine with Yotsugi is awesome and also the visit again with Nadeko extreme sugar scene inducing diabetes or heart attack.

Then that cliffhanger >_> I wonder what's hidden there. Nadeko is crazy insane. Is she insane enough to do the yandere stuff like tons of photos of Araragi?

[ReaperxKingx]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

He destroyed the local cult branch. It forced Hitagi's mum to make the choice of either going back to her family or to leave and join the cult leaders at HQ. The mother picked the cult. The choice is made, and Hitagi is better off. Kaiki did a lot of things, it just wasn't what he said he said he would do.

Did you read my previous post before that one? Kaiki was asked to returned Hitagi's weight with the compensation of a large amount of money. The cult's damage is already done to Hitari, destroying it served no more purpose than revenge. What Hitari really wanted is her weight back. Did Kaiki returned Hitagi's weight or Araragi and Meme did? Did he do what he was paid for?

[ndqanh_vn]

Originally Posted by ReaperxKingx

Did you read my previous post before that one? Kaiki was asked to returned Hitagi's weight with the compensation of a large amount of money. The cult's damage is already done to Hitari, destroying it served no more purpose than revenge. What Hitari really wanted is her weight back. Did Kaiki returned Hitagi's weight or Araragi and Meme did? Did he do what he was paid for?

I think it is clarified somewhere that

Spoiler for spoil for the crab:

Kaiki thinks the crab god would be a good outlet for Hitagi for the time beings, before she could be able to face herself and accept all the sadness, despair and memories of her mother.

Well, I don't really think Kaiki is 100% good either. He's a man with his own policy, just like Kagenui and Meme. (Meme is not entirely good too, most of the mess caused in Kizu is the result of his troublesome meddling).

The main reason I like Kaiki is that he is one with a good narration and finally after so many arcs seeing Araragi molesting young girl, we got a somewhat competent protagonist who knows what he is doing.

On the other hand, am I the only one who does not enjoy seeing Okonogi so often recently? I would prefer to have Kagenui talking to Kaiki. Okonogi struck me as trying too hard to be cute.