Re:Zero - Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[moridin84]

- So he realized that he couldn't do it alone and asked for help. Just like everyone thing the thread was saying. Didn't really work out for him.
- I'm surprised he just said it all straight out, but then Subaru is a rather straightforward person. They believed him easily enough too. Mostly because they were already aware.
- Crusch calling him out on the fact that he didn't say anything about saving Emilia was interesting. It seems that he's more interested in revenge right now.
- Priscilla sure got mad.
- All three candiated told Subaru the same thing. That he's just asking and not offering anything in return. Of course, he don't have anything to offer in return
- Is this whale thing the hazard that Rem mentioned before? They went earlier this time so they probably didn't know that it was active
- An easier death than last time
- Good excuses for Reinhart and Roswaal not being around
- Rem is just going along with whatever Subaru says huh?
- Evacuating all the villagers is an interesting idea. I would have thought that simply moving Emilia would be good enough.
- He sure is attached to those villagers

I actually don't know what Subaru can do at this point...

What this episode reinforces is that everyone is extremely self-serving, and no one is willing to do anything if it doesn't benefit them directly.

He isn't asking for a small thing.

He's asking people with an awful lot of power to help their political rival. And to make an enemy of these witch cultists.

[felix]

It's not even just helping their political rival, it's abandoning this perfect opportunity of getting rid of their rival with out them doing anything or suffering any consequences.

If I were to guess I think the bargaining chip will be "You either save Emilia or Puck's contract will take effect! And you won't have a country to fight for anymore."

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by moridin84

He isn't asking for a small thing.

He's asking people with an awful lot of power to help their political rival. And to make an enemy of these witch cultists.

The end part of Crusch and Subaru's conversation says it best, Crusch will lose Emilia as a rival either way, so she's taking the easier route and not going to lift a finger as it still doesn't benefit her. Subaru said it best, "I hope you become a great ruler, a dictator who pushes aside the weak." because that's exactly what she's doing.

[Proto]

Like in this episode every other candidate is suddenly embodiment of the devil(because of course Emilia's pure and idealistic vision is the best you guyse), just so Subaru gets no help at all.

Every other point you make comes down to personal opinion so you are perfectly entitled to it, but like other people have mentioned this is more of a setting issue. This show is following a European mainland feudalistic kingdom mold, which really helps explain why the other king candidates were very reluctant to help the Emilia camp. There is little political benefit to helping another feudal lord and much to lose, both for the helper and the person being helped.

Hell, in their own way all three candidates where being nice to Subaru, showing that they like his straightforwardness in principle but that's not enough in the world of politics. Crusch spelled out for him what where the demerits for Emillia should she help and what it is that he must bring to the table if he wants her to help despite this. Priscilla was desperately trying for him to man up and show a modicum of pride. Anastasia took advantage of him but properly gave him something in return and a 101 in negotiations.

Furthermore a lot of things were hinted out to Subaru. What was the kingdom treasurer doing in Crusch mansion? Who is doing such a large scale campaign that they are buying all the weapons and means of transportation? Is this something that he could leverage? Anastasia had to pry it out of him but if there is something that Subaru has that he can sell to the candidates and that they would be very interested in buying is the information he has gathered through different cycles. He just has to realize it and go around in newsman mode.

[Syan48306]

Mannnn.

I just wish Subaru will learn a thing or two from all these resets. I mean, the end of episode 15, it was very sobering watching him go through all of that. However, after every rest, it's like two steps forward, then one step back in terms of interactions with other people.

With two death's last episode, I was secretly hoping that he'd be killed at the end of this episode and perhaps he could redo some of the interactions he had earlier this episode.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by moridin84

I actually don't know what Subaru can do at this point...


He isn't asking for a small thing.

He's asking people with an awful lot of power to help their political rival. And to make an enemy of these witch cultists.

They're already enemies, but beating them is gonna be cost them.

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Mannnn.

I just wish Subaru will learn a thing or two from all these resets. I mean, the end of episode 15, it was very sobering watching him go through all of that. However, after every rest, it's like two steps forward, then one step back in terms of interactions with other people.

With two death's last episode, I was secretly hoping that he'd be killed at the end of this episode and perhaps he could redo some of the interactions he had earlier this episode.

Here's the thing: Everyone here thought Subaru would've learned what an ass he was being with his hero complex after dying. He didn't and why would he? He just died. That's no lesson that everything he was doing was wrong. Anastasia pointed out that his past actions determined his reputation, but he still doesn't believe what he did was wrong.

[Syan48306]

Originally Posted by bakato

They're already enemies, but beating them is gonna be cost them.



Here's the thing: Everyone here thought Subaru would've learned what an ass he was being with his hero complex after dying. He didn't and why would he? He just died. That's no lesson that everything he was doing was wrong. Anastasia pointed out that his past actions determined his reputation, but he still doesn't believe what he did was wrong.

While that's true, you can't help but hope he learns a thing or two about the way he's acting with other people. It's amazing that Rem still follows his words without question. I wonder what she truly thinks about his actions.

[felix]

She was ordered to protect him. His actions aren't really in contradiction to the order.
Also he's already proven to her he has a sixth sense for danger with the previous arc.

In the last reset we also saw she's willing to die for him, so...

[HandofFate]

argh, it hurt watching Subaru failing so hard in front of all the candidates. He's such a fool. Sure there's good reasons to us why he might acting like this, but doesn't change that he's still failing hard and being pathetic and stupid about it all.

All the candidates were right in what they said. Even if they weren't rivals for the throne, agreeing to help so one-sidedly risking their own people on Subaru's whim is a very selfish expectation on Subaru's part.

[Dengar]

Well, I wouldn't know about him not learning everything. I mean, every loop he does try something different. And to be fair I haven't quite figured out the best way for him to get out of this mess myself.

Also, it's quite hard for someone who basically lives and breathes manga to suddenly adjust to a more medieval political mentality.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

While that's true, you can't help but hope he learns a thing or two about the way he's acting with other people. It's amazing that Rem still follows his words without question. I wonder what she truly thinks about his actions.

She knows Subaru isn't a liar, someone who would give his life for others. There's no reason to doubt him. The others don't know him that well. Crusch thinks he's insane, and the others just don't care about him.

I'm sure she doesn't agree with how he's approaching it, since she's constantly telling him to calm down. But because of how well she knows him, I'm sure she believes he has a good reason for being so desperate.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

While that's true, you can't help but hope he learns a thing or two about the way he's acting with other people. It's amazing that Rem still follows his words without question. I wonder what she truly thinks about his actions.

Of course, we do, but death is no lesson. He needs an epiphany, a revelation, to understand his place.

[FlareKnight]

I can understand the perspective of wanting to get rid of a political rival and the risks involved here. But, I can't say Subaru is 100% in the wrong either. He's bubbling with rage to be sure and that's not helping him at all. But, his perspective isn't necessarily wrong. To lose a political rival these people who apparently want to run a country don't give a damn about the innocent people that will be slaughtered. They are going to be your citizens if you win!

In the end Subaru's last words to Crusch was on point. They are ignoring the weak and helpless because it proves a point? Yeah, that's a country I'd want to be living in....The benefit is that they are going to save their citizens. If they don't care enough to save those people then they should be the ones dropping out of this contest for the throne.

The one thing that confuses the heck out of me is how they took the fast route and yet no one mentioned to Subaru and he didn't think about the threat that they had been avoiding. If they willingly gambled on avoiding that threat that's one thing....but everyone just forget it was there? What changed where information about that thing didn't get to Rem and the traders?

Oh well, in the end at least Subaru is getting good intel. Sadly these aren't good people you can expect to help others. They aren't Emilia. He's sadly going to have to be as underhanded, cheap, and manipulative as they are in order to secure the help he needs. At least he knows better what makes these women tick and what won't work. I don't know how a person turns off the rage that Subaru has going right now, but he'll have to manage it. It's completely realistic to be bubbling with anger after what he went through, but that won't help him. He needs to manipulate these people or he won't be able to save anyone.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

argh, it hurt watching Subaru failing so hard in front of all the candidates. He's such a fool. Sure there's good reasons to us why he might acting like this, but doesn't change that he's still failing hard and being pathetic and stupid about it all.

All the candidates were right in what they said. Even if they weren't rivals for the throne, agreeing to help so one-sidedly risking their own people on Subaru's whim is a very selfish expectation on Subaru's part.

You forget that he was literally insane barely 24hrs ago, and the only thing that broke him out of the insanity is anger. Of course he's not going be all 007 smooth.

[Tong]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Yeah, the only thing I know she wants is everything. She has no right to call anyone greedy, I wanted Subaru to clutch her throat so badly in that scene.

Anastasia is the one that wants everything, not the badass ojou-sama princess.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Mannnn.

I just wish Subaru will learn a thing or two from all these resets. I mean, the end of episode 15, it was very sobering watching him go through all of that. However, after every rest, it's like two steps forward, then one step back in terms of interactions with other people.

With two death's last episode, I was secretly hoping that he'd be killed at the end of this episode and perhaps he could redo some of the interactions he had earlier this episode.

Learn what exactly? He's not a politican and isn't exactly versed Lugnica's political system nor does he have the time to learn it. Practically everything he his been through has been a new experience for him.

Honestly his biggest mistake was assuming that majority was Emilia and Reinhard who notably more altruistic than your typical nobles or high rollers. And at the end of the day it doesn't change the issue he currently doesn't have anuthing to offer those in power at the moment, so no matter what he says they help unless there is something in for them. Afterall if their gonna commit resources to something he has to make worth it to them.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Well, I wouldn't know about him not learning everything. I mean, every loop he does try something different. And to be fair I haven't quite figured out the best way for him to get out of this mess myself.

Also, it's quite hard for someone who basically lives and breathes manga to suddenly adjust to a more medieval political mentality.

He got a clue this loop. Anastasia wanted intel on Crusch's operation. He unwittingly gave it to her this time, but when he loops he'll have leverage.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I can understand the perspective of wanting to get rid of a political rival and the risks involved here. But, I can't say Subaru is 100% in the wrong either. He's bubbling with rage to be sure and that's not helping him at all. But, his perspective isn't necessarily wrong. To lose a political rival these people who apparently want to run a country don't give a damn about the innocent people that will be slaughtered. They are going to be your citizens if you win!

In the end Subaru's last words to Crusch was on point. They are ignoring the weak and helpless because it proves a point? Yeah, that's a country I'd want to be living in....The benefit is that they are going to save their citizens. If they don't care enough to save those people then they should be the ones dropping out of this contest for the throne.

The one thing that confuses the heck out of me is how they took the fast route and yet no one mentioned to Subaru and he didn't think about the threat that they had been avoiding. If they willingly gambled on avoiding that threat that's one thing....but everyone just forget it was there? What changed where information about that thing didn't get to Rem and the traders?

Oh well, in the end at least Subaru is getting good intel. Sadly these aren't good people you can expect to help others. They aren't Emilia. He's sadly going to have to be as underhanded, cheap, and manipulative as they are in order to secure the help he needs. At least he knows better what makes these women tick and what won't work. I don't know how a person turns off the rage that Subaru has going right now, but he'll have to manage it. It's completely realistic to be bubbling with anger after what he went through, but that won't help him. He needs to manipulate these people or he won't be able to save anyone.

Subaru needs to learn to play the Game of Thrones. He should hire Tyrion.

Originally Posted by Tong

Anastasia is the one that wants everything, not the badass ojou-sama princess.

She wants everything to, she thinks she should rule over all, that everything is hers, because she was born into privy life.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

You forget that he was literally insane barely 24hrs ago, and the only thing that broke him out of the insanity is anger. Of course he's not going be all 007 smooth.

He was never 007 smooth to begin with.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by bakato

He was never 007 smooth to begin with.

That he wasn't, he was awkward and constantly put up a fake front.