It seems that a lot of girls read more shounen than shoujo

[Aesthetic Shampoo]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

That's not friggin true at all. Shoujo romances are MUCH deeper than ones in shounen, overall. They don't go "OMG I SUDDENLY LOVE HIM BECAUSE HE GROPED MY BOOBS SO MANY TIMES!!" or "OMG, I SUDDENLY LOVE HIM BECAUSE I AM HIS SLAVE NOW" or "OMG I SUDDENLY LOVE HIM BECAUSE...BECAUSE THIS IS SUPPOSED TO CREATE PROBLEMS WITH HIS FIRST GIRLFRIEND BECAUSE........BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT'S IN THE SCRIPT LOL!!"

Whereas shoujo have girls going "I suddenly love him because he pretty much raped me" and "I suddenly love him because he's forcing me to do things". Don't know about you, but i'd take the boob grabbing over that any day.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

There are plenty of shoujo series with a ton of depth, character growth, and gripping plots. You're just not watching the right ones.

I'm well aware that there are shoujo's out there like that, just like there are some shounen out there. What disturbs me however, is that the "wrong ones" i've been reading are the popular ones, the ones most people start reading when they begin to delve into the shoujo genre (or so i assume based on popularity and forum talk). Based on this, i'm not surprised that the general impression of shoujo people generally give aren't overwhelmingly positive.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

Whereas shoujo have girls going "I suddenly love him because he pretty much raped me" and "I suddenly love him because he's forcing me to do things".

I don't touch that shit with a ten-foot pole!!

Sounds like you've only read smut shoujo? o___O Try some aimed at a younger audience. >_>

What disturbs me however, is that the "wrong ones" i've been reading are the popular ones, the ones most people start reading when they begin to delve into the shoujo genre (or so i assume based on popularity and forum talk). Based on this, i'm not surprised that the general impression of shoujo people generally give aren't overwhelmingly positive.

What "most popular ones" are you talking about? o_o When I think "popular", I think Fruits Basket or Ouran Host Club or Kaichou Wa Maid-sama.
As far as I know, those don't have the type of "rape=love" or "abuse=love" relationships you mentioned during their entire run.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Sunnythesun

Whereas shoujo have girls going "I suddenly love him because he pretty much raped me" and "I suddenly love him because he's forcing me to do things". Don't know about you, but i'd take the boob grabbing over that any day.



I'm well aware that there are shoujo's out there like that, just like there are some shounen out there. What disturbs me however, is that the "wrong ones" i've been reading are the popular ones, the ones most people start reading when they begin to delve into the shoujo genre (or so i assume based on popularity and forum talk). Based on this, i'm not surprised that the general impression of shoujo people generally give aren't overwhelmingly positive.

I was almost about to rant.. til I got to the line I bolded... yes, that is worrisome/annoying but in large part it is because the market *pushes* those choices. And its true for shounen as well - the ones that reinforce misogynist views (be it shoujo or shounen) seem to be the most "play".

<shrug> all you can do is say "nice that you're starting out... but here's some better stuff if you want to skip the mass production crap"

[Transitions]

Originally Posted by BaKaBaKaOtaKu

Yaoi, BL, Shounen-Ai etc..etc..

Naruto is the worst case of this

usually never do this, but is the legend of American ninja ¬¬

[Kameruka]

You know Maria-sama ga Miteru? It was intended to be seen by teenage girls but at the end it was guys that appreciate it better. Maybe because lack of male characters(other than Yumi's brother and Sachiko's fiance), pretty girls and more importantly strong hints of lesbianism. Just look at Black Butler and Hitman Reborn if you don't agree with me.

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Kameruka

You know Maria-sama ga Miteru? It was intended to be seen by teenage girls but at the end it was guys that appreciate it better. Maybe because lack of male characters(other than Yumi's brother and Sachiko's fiance), pretty girls and more importantly strong hints of lesbianism. Just look at Black Butler and Hitman Reborn if you don't agree with me.

Seems the girls still appreciates the boy-girl kind of romance than the unrealistic, plot-environment controlled romance anime like this one.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by genjichan

Seems the girls still appreciates the boy-girl kind of romance than the unrealistic, plot-environment controlled romance anime like this one.

Ya took the words right out of my mouth. XD

I hate plot-environment controlled romance. It feels so damn.....sexist. I like BL as much as the next girl but even I have to roll my eyes at stuff like Angel's Feather where EVERYONE is gay.
Everyone, really?
Everyone!?
That just DOESN'T happen!!

[Dhomochevsky]

If girls read so much shounen, then who reads all those BL mangas?
Go to a manga listing, click any manga title at random, chances are high it has pretty boys getting suspiciously close to each other on the cover.
Someone has to read all this stuff too! There is soooo much of it.

Are girls just spending tons of money, or is this translation bias?

[Undertaker]

Not only that most Shojos aren't long serialization. there are more short story Shojo than in Shounen. Coincidentally there shojo mangaka who are famous without and notable long series.

It's unfair to compare it to Shounen when Shounen, despite its target age is the more commercial product. Take Shounen away and it's debatable that Shojo magazines enjoys more readership than Seinenor Josei in this matter.

[Amorok]

Eh. I'm sticking to what I originally said about the stereotypical shounen AND shoujo both having unappealing qualities. Chiibi, I think it's amusing how quickly you will jump to the shoujo genre's defense, while simultaneously lambasting shounen. At the same time, the guys are frantically racing to defend the shounen genre's honor, while at the same time arguing against the merits of shoujo.

What this debate tells me is that there are negatives to BOTH sides -- and the stereotypes that are associated with either genre ARE negative. That doesn't mean, however, that there aren't deep, realistic shoujo romances, as Chiibi insists, or that there aren't quality shounen anime, as Sunnythesun says. They just tend not to be the popular ones, and they tend not to be all that common.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Vexx

Why should anyone restrict their reading based on how a publishing house labels a title? All the label really tells you is what demographic audience the publisher guesses it is targeting. All the publishers, however, have long records of picking up titles they think will sell no matter what the content or to whom it is sold to (which is why you'll see titles that "look shoujo" in shounen magazines or vice versa... or titles more suited to adults (seinen/josei) in shounen or shoujo rags.

Shounen, Shoujo, Seinen, whatever.... if it entertains a reader, they should read it.

Agreed 100%.

Originally Posted by Vexx

....I also like Kimi ni Todoke (though the leisurely plot does have me twitching at times, I just want to pick her up and throw her at her guy ....

I totally know what you mean about the "leisurely plot" thing, but I would never pick her up and throw her at Kazahaya! I mean he's equally to blame ... at times.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Ya took the words right out of my mouth. XD

I hate plot-environment controlled romance. It feels so damn.....sexist.

I like BL as much as the next girl but even I have to roll my eyes at stuff like Angel's Feather where EVERYONE is gay.

Everyone, really?

Everyone!?

That just DOESN'T happen!!

Wow ... genki today, eh?

While sexism and such, while a concern for some posters in the forums here (and elsewhere) is not as much as issue for me personally, I do agree in a larger sense with your criticism of Angel Feather (though I have not read it) ... it kinda mirrored some of the reasons why Yuriyuri was not convincing to me, but also harem settings in general.

*braces himself for incoming hurled furniture*

[NoemiChan]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Ya took the words right out of my mouth. XD

I hate plot-environment controlled romance. It feels so damn.....sexist. I like BL as much as the next girl but even I have to roll my eyes at stuff like Angel's Feather where EVERYONE is gay.
Everyone, really?
Everyone!?
That just DOESN'T happen!!

Most if not all, yaoi and yuri animes have controlled environment where the casts and the supporting casts are either gays (for yaoi) and lesbians (for yuri). It includes the whole class, the whole school and the faculty are gays!!!

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Amorok

Eh. I'm sticking to what I originally said about the stereotypical shounen AND shoujo both having unappealing qualities. Chiibi, I think it's amusing how quickly you will jump to the shoujo genre's defense, while simultaneously lambasting shounen. At the same time, the guys are frantically racing to defend the shounen genre's honor, while at the same time arguing against the merits of shoujo.

Stereotypical stuff is not always bad. The shoujo manga Kitchen Princess is about as stereotypical as you can possibly get, hits ALL the cliches one normally expects in shoujo and it's still a very enjoyable and captivating read.

Both genres (like anything) have horrible series and beautiful series. However it annoys me a bit that people are quicker to say "shoujo sucks" on a general basis than they'll say that "shounen sucks".

Neither one sucks!! But overall, shoujo writers are better at writing romance and most shounen ones are better at writing action. (There are ALWAYS exceptions) It just depends on what element you'd like to see more that enables you to choose one genre over the other.

Wow ... genki today, eh?

はい。あたしは元気な子です。

Most if not all, yaoi and yuri animes have controlled environment where the casts and the supporting casts are either gays (for yaoi) and lesbians (for yuri). It includes the whole class, the whole school and the faculty are gays!!!

Rawr, I know!! IT'S REALLY STUPID!!
It feels more like pandering to its fans who are watching "FOR TEH GAY!!!11" so much more than anything else that the creators might as well write "WE'RE DESPERATE" on their foreheads. >_>

[Kameruka]

If girls start watching Seikon no Qwaser, its doomsday already.

[Flower]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

...はい。あたしは元気な子です。...

Well, that's good, that's good....

Now to go and watch ep 1 of "A Little Snow Fairy Sugar"....

[Xion Valkyrie]

Maybe girls are tired of seeing Shoujo protagonists that 'need' a guy to do anything. At least in Shounen (harem aside), the protagonist is fairly strong and independent, and overcomes his obstacles and even impossible odds with sheer willpower. Even though these qualities for a typical shounen hero are cliche, they're still very 'pro-active' qualities that are positive.

A lot of the more stereotypical shoujo manga have protagonists that are weak, submissive, etc, and often cannot solve problems without help from the male lead/love interest. Even some of the characters who have a reputation for being strong still run into situations where some antagonist renders them helpless and the main love interest needs to come to her rescue. Or the female lead is strong, but the male lead is even stronger. Kaicho wa Maid-sama is pretty much like this.

Some shoujo protagonists I consider 'strong' would be any heroine from Youko Kamio's works (Boys Over Flowers, Cat Street) and Ai Maekawa from Doubt. I'd prefer to see more Shoujo protagonists like those that I mentioned.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Flower

Now to go and watch ep 1 of "A Little Snow Fairy Sugar"....

Already did. About three years ago....or more. I finished it but the ending made me sad.

Some shoujo protagonists I consider 'strong' would be any heroine from Youko Kamio's works (Boys Over Flowers, Cat Street) and Ai Maekawa from Doubt. I'd prefer to see more Shoujo protagonists like those that I mentioned.

I definitely recommend Tanemura Arina's works, for you then.
(Skip Shinshi Doumei Cross though-it sucks. >_>)

[MisaoFan]

Originally Posted by Xion Valkyrie

Maybe girls are tired of seeing Shoujo protagonists that 'need' a guy to do anything. At least in Shounen (harem aside), the protagonist is fairly strong and independent, and overcomes his obstacles and even impossible odds with sheer willpower. Even though these qualities for a typical shounen hero are cliche, they're still very 'pro-active' qualities that are positive.

A lot of the more stereotypical shoujo manga have protagonists that are weak, submissive, etc, and often cannot solve problems without help from the male lead/love interest. Even some of the characters who have a reputation for being strong still run into situations where some antagonist renders them helpless and the main love interest needs to come to her rescue. Or the female lead is strong, but the male lead is even stronger. Kaicho wa Maid-sama is pretty much like this.

Some shoujo protagonists I consider 'strong' would be any heroine from Youko Kamio's works (Boys Over Flowers, Cat Street) and Ai Maekawa from Doubt. I'd prefer to see more Shoujo protagonists like those that I mentioned.

There even shoujo like 07-Ghost when the male protagonist is weak, or X when the male protagonist (again) is strong. In shounen side, there's also titles like Zero no Tsukaima when the female lead is a weak/medium-level fighter, or in Medaka Box, when the protagonist is a female fighter.

[Amorok]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Stereotypical stuff is not always bad. The shoujo manga Kitchen Princess is about as stereotypical as you can possibly get, hits ALL the cliches one normally expects in shoujo and it's still a very enjoyable and captivating read.

I don't mean to sound snarky here at all, but that's very much your opinion. *I* personally think Kitchen Princess is a perfect example of the fluffy shoujo drivel I've been talking about.

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Both genres (like anything) have horrible series and beautiful series. However it annoys me a bit that people are quicker to say "shoujo sucks" on a general basis than they'll say that "shounen sucks".

Fair point. No argument there. People ARE quicker to say that shoujo sucks, but doesn't that make you wonder? WHY are they quicker to make such judgments? Couldn't possibly be because shoujo, in general, DOES tend to suck more than shounen?

[Shinji01]

I feel many Shoujo manga are too girly. its all about having crushes, whos dating who etc.
Whereas Shonen manga has more historical references, adventure, growth of character, diversity etc.

Its like Shoujo manga is a soap opera (think the O.C. Seriouslly, everyone is dating everyone and at every oppotunity they run off and fight and then they have a car crash. really???) whereas shonen manga is a real drama series (i dunno... like LOST & Heroes?)

Of course there are anomalies and I am talking in a veeerrrry generalized manner.
I love Friends and hate 24.

But I think you get the idea

And yes, CLAMP's X is Shoujo with a strong male protagonist but again, everyone seems to fall in love with everyone and declare their love when they are about to die. Too melodramatic for my liking.

I am not a big fan of One Piece, but at least the characters here die with passion and can deliver cheesy moral speeches. LOL