2019-02-07, 16:37 | Link #21 |
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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Too many? Yes. The question isn't whether there are a lot of master/slave relationship series, but rather whether this is "typical" master/slave or legitimately holds to the bad aspects of such tropes. Just like with isekai in general or "wish-fulfillment" or any number of other story aspects, you can have things done well or poorly depending on what the author's trying to say and how well he/she says it. The author personally said slavery was supposed to be something Naofumi was forced to do and that efforts were made to create a world where morality was far from simple. In my opinion he/she did a good job of this. Calling this a standard slave fantasy fanservice bit to me feels like calling Log Horizon a typical wish-fulfillment isekai story. I'm sorry but I hate "Death of the Author" and "X trope is bad", even if "X" is "Happiness in Slavery". Anything can be done well or poorly and the author's intent as well as their presentation matters, and I have tried but haven't been able to see the sort of fantasy Felix and others claim to be unable to unsee. And yes, I've seen a ton of series with master-slave relationships, so it's not that I just haven't seen as many or known the trope as well.
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2019-02-08, 08:40 | Link #22 |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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Here's a bit of my thoughts. The animee is obviously going to be simplified over the LN / WN. I read the LN and I still didn't care for the slave angle - yes it is used to show that Naofumi is willing to embrace something a bit dark when he's can't think of any other mechanism, but IMO the details involved aren't fully "earned" as part of the storytelling (although they are better than in the animee).
For example about the stuff that's already happened: Spoiler for It's in the LN but skipped over in the animee:
Anyway, I came for the fantasy elements and knew there was probably a good chance that there would be a bunch of relatively standard (and annoying) cliche's thrown in. Basically - just because there is 1 or 2 small differences doesn't mean the overall convention of master/slave all that different from many other story lines. |
2019-02-09, 10:48 | Link #25 | ||
Master of Killing Time
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Makinohara Service Area
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it's possible to have a positive meaningful relationship with each other of course, as we can see with the pair in this series, specifically how sincere Raph is in her gratitude to Naofumi. BUT even when we know for a fact that there's no coercion involved if ever this evolves into a romantic relationship, no matter how mutual or consensual their relationship will be now that Raph's all grown up and all that, there will always be this idea in the back of my mind that there was a time when Raph didn't have a choice in the matter and that this has an influence in her actions right now. I don't want to delve too deeply into this, as it's already off topic and I might just be reading too much into Raph's actions, it might just be a light crush on the very first person who had shown her some kindness since her parents died after all.
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2019-02-09, 12:16 | Link #26 |
Ass connoisseur
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Florida
Age: 37
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This all seems kinda silly to me. To call it Stockholm Syndrome is objectively false in the first place. Naofumi is not even her captor, he is her savior. The anime plays this angle and it's something both Raphtalia notices and us as the audience should notice. He saved her from a cage where she was dying from an illness and has nightmare terrors so she had no possible chance of being taken in by a good family. Stockholm syndrome is also also a survival strategy to protect themselves from their captors. Raphtalia's strong desire to be with Naofumi was because he did treat her well and the alternatives would have been drastically worse. Over time she developed feelings for him after getting to know why the bitterness existed in him and that deep down he was a good person who protected her; despite also needing her to fight for him. It also helps that Raphtalias parents mentioned that the shield hero was the one hero who treated demi-humans better than anyone else. Raphtalia was a child in need of a parent, and Naofumi filled that role for her. That was her initial feeling, but as she started to age those feelings sprouted into a more romantic kind of feeling. She sees him as a man, and while she may have the experience of a ten year old, she has the body of an adult and all of the quirks that come with it.
The slave crest is no more than a memento to Naofumi; It's Raphtalias way of saying thank you. Naofumi may not have needed her to keep it, but it's her way of showing her faith. She isn't treated like a slave anymore, she's a slave in name only. It does nothing to detract from their relationship. It's merely there for the sake of symbolism.
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2019-02-09, 12:37 | Link #27 | |||||
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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'Jesus-kun' by the way, wasn't comparing Naofumi to Jesus, it's a nickname for Kirito from SAO, similar to 'Gary Stu'. Not a traditional or complete Gary Stu, I grant, but...he's a light novel protagonist. Quote:
However, it is true that lifelong slaves have difficulty in adapting to freedom. it is significant that Raph had the brand replaced herself, rather than Naofumi replacing it at her insistence. Naofumi still absolutely fails to help Raph become free, a crime his trauma would explain rather than excuse, if it wasn't inadequate to even do that. Quote:
The lie that slaves did not want freedom, or that blacks and women didn't want the vote, was so persistent in our own world because not all the slaves wanted freedom. Writers justified slavery and female oppression for centuries by portraying contented, strong-willed and well-treated slaves or housewives. Such people exist(ed), and were used to hide the abuses, and unjustifiable concept. The contented slave, presented as a positive example of trust rather than a crime against human dignity, is a truth far worse than a lie, that this anime is uncritically presenting. East-Asian sex slaves are absolutely a thing in modern Japan, as are sex slaves in the UK. Racism in both countries fuels the idea that these girl might not be that badly off, or mind too much, given where they've come from. This is a far, far bigger problem than false rape accusations. This anime...isn't going to help. Quote:
'Do not judge', as I understand, means 'do not condemn', rather than 'ignore sin', and applies to humans only. People have unseen depths, and can repent; Light Novel heroes don't and can't, unless the author writes it. I don't intend to breath a word of condemnation against fans of this show, or the author, but Naofumi is a fictional character and I only wish I could stomp harder. Last edited by Ghostfriendly; 2019-02-09 at 13:53. |
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2019-02-09, 13:52 | Link #28 | ||||
Born to ship
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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2019-02-09, 14:11 | Link #29 | ||
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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If she was black, this would be racist, and believe me, it's been done. Quote:
(I'd have preferred a story where 'necessity' led Naofumi to eventually wipe out slave owners and free the slaves. Or just give Raph her freedom, or punish Naofumi meaningfully, or give them matching slave brands, it would be so easy..) Last edited by Ghostfriendly; 2019-02-09 at 15:14. |
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2019-02-09, 14:38 | Link #30 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
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People's obsession with the slavery crest is getting rather worrying to me. Raphatlia doesn't love him because of some warped Master/Slave fetish pandering it's because he is her Hero in her mind.
He came into her life when she was a broken hopeless slave dying of illness with the only thing to look forward to is being sold to other corrupt nobles for their depraved demi-human torture fetishes when Naofumi picked her up instead. Her first impression of him was a cold scary man who was to be the latest in a line of abusers. Instead she received decent equipment, food when she needed it, medicine for her illness. When she had night terrors he comforted her. While he had to push her to do it, she gained the ability to fight and get stronger as well as the means to face against the Curse Wave that stole her life and family from her. She gained the ability to protect others from it as well. She got the chance to know the strange man who took care of her as well as her needs instead of abusing her. She changed from being a meek timid doll who cowered at life's cruelties into a strong and confident young woman who could face adversity. She learned that Naofumi was a sad, angry, emotionally scarred man. She heard the rumors of his supposed cruelty to women and had to compare it to the gruff kindness and care she received from him. She saw him protect and defend innocents from a village from monsters and go out of his way to save as many as possible. She saw him be a Hero. She decided that she believed in the kindness and the Hero she saw in Naofumi. She decided that she wanted to protect him. She decided she wanted to save him from those who would hurt him. What part of any of this sounds like the female party members of the more trashy Isekai stories where the girls exist to be the sexual partners of the Godly OP protagonist? Where they're perfectly happy to be his lust objects and have little to no characterization beyond that? Yes there is slavery in this story. Yes slavery is terrible. But the slavery in this story isn't meant to be just sexual pandering to the audience and the repeated insistence it is in these threads is getting silly.
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Last edited by The Green One; 2019-02-25 at 02:32. |
2019-02-09, 15:18 | Link #31 | |||
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Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Texas
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I'm sorry but as I've said before I detest absolutism when it's applied to fiction. Every story is different and declaring "this story/character is bad/evil because it/he/she does X" is a little off to me. |
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2019-02-09, 15:39 | Link #32 | |
Senior Member
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Location: Kyrgyzstan, Bishkek
Age: 40
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Who write the paper is somewhat important evidence, especially in real world where it can be indication of something fishy going on, but ultimately it is the paper quality that matters. Again I am somewhat sympathetic to such view of relationship which can easily be not like it looks from outside. But this is not reality, and we are given from inside-ish view. In presence of direct evidence circumstantial lose importance.
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2019-02-09, 15:49 | Link #33 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2008
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They're the hero and heroine of a very generic light novel, they're going to be romanticised. Never watched the other series you mentioned, I'm very conflicted about even watching Ancient Magus' Bride, after all this (but it does look like he frees her, not that hard, SH author...) I'm afraid human rights are absolute in the real world, and I went to some trouble in my earlier post to show the harmful effects of slavery being depicted other than negatively in fiction. |
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2019-02-09, 16:17 | Link #35 | ||||
sleepyhead
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: event horizon
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Replace Naofumi and Ralph's relationship with that of a canibal and his victim.See? easy. Quote:
It took the villains to actually give her back control, and Naofumi sure didn't seem to oppose much in the episode when he took her to put the seal back on. The so called "mark of loyalty" some of you are interpreting it as, is as far as I'm concerned is just "the mark of indoctrination." Or why do you all think she put it back on her breasts of all places? instead of say, her hand. Since when does trusting someone require giving the other person a death grip on your own life? only cults and such need brands of absolute loyalty. Quote:
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By that same logic, if Naofumi in modern japan were to pick up random lost girl off the street and educate her to be his loving wife that would also be okey right? - - - Also about this "lovey dovey" stuff. She's still what... 10?
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2019-02-09, 16:26 | Link #36 |
Haven't You Heard?
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: South-east Asia
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What I saw is you all who arguing insisting "This anime must be about promoting slavery".
Hardly go far from that, let alone making proper reasoning as if character development and action just go away thanks to your speculation fuel. If you can consider what happened to Raphtalia is brainwashing, why not say the same to games where you can level up by killing humans? Isn't that the same with promoting violence and murderer? Is it because somewhere I didn't know, murdering people actually good thing?
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2019-02-09, 16:56 | Link #38 | |||
sleepyhead
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Arguments that needed to be said were said. If you want to believe you're right, nobody is stopping you, just don't poke on the discussion and it will die. You came in this thread and you're "bothered," and this is somehow everyone else's fault? This thread was specifically created to help people like you not be bothered by the discussion, all you have to do is stay away. Quote:
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2019-02-09, 17:13 | Link #39 | ||
Born to ship
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2019-02-09, 17:44 | Link #40 | |
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And the reason I brought up Death March is that (if I recall), the main character also has slaves under him; and that the show not only show the MC treating his slaves (as he didn't release them) as regular people and not slaves (like Naofumi has done), but also had the MC training the slave girls to raise their levels (like Naofumi has done). Also, if I recall, there was a reason given why they weren't released from their slavery (since the MC didn't want slaves to begin with, and was about to just send them on their way). So all of this insisting that Naofumi/the show is doing something bad for these reasons, it makes me wonder if the MC of that show was also blasted with the same criticism. |
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