The Industry - Lifestyle and Wages

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

It seems that, in this specific case, the issue did not appear to be pay. Even if it had been a union job, it does not seem like they were asking for more money. (Whether dub actors, or translators for that matter, should be paid more for their work is another fair conversation, but might not be the issue here.) The issue appears to be that Crunchyroll decided to use their internal team and did not want to even have a conversation about using the external actors or with the union at all.

I think a fundamental issue throughout this whole thing is that dub actors are not treated with the same kind of respect as "real actors." The emphasis on SimulDubs is making this even more of a "factory" where they have an extremely narrow timeframe to push out the work, so they prioritize efficiency above all, and I honestly think that's the root cause for this particular situation more than anything else.

LOL @ "internal team" as I'm sure these people are on a 1099 work for hire contract and an NDA that would wipe out their grandchildren. I'm guessing you're not from the US because we have states that are particularly hostile to unions (Texas being one of them) and zero healthcare (except if you're poor enough to qualify for public assistance) unless our employer provides it and companies regularly shift healthcare and other taxes, insurance, etc. onto those working under them by classifying them as "independent contractors". Filling a lot of those gaps is the advantage of a union or guild for performers as performance work isn't necessarily steady which becomes an even bigger problem when there's a monopoly. WWE wrestlers are notoriously categorized as independent contractors even after wrestling became a monopoly 30-40+ years ago. Not to mention Uber drivers and the like.

Anyway, for the VA its mostly about healthcare and savings, for Crunchyroll its about money.

Otherwise I somehow doubt this is a place you're going to find many dub fans, though there might be a few in the woodwork. I can't really comment on what would make a good dub but when you hear about actors like Giancarlo Esposito in Edgerunners it seems good for the industry as a whole.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by stray

LOL @ "internal team" as I'm sure these people are on a 1099 work for hire contract and an NDA that would wipe out their grandchildren. I'm guessing you're not from the US because we have states that are particularly hostile to unions (Texas being one of them) and zero healthcare (except if you're poor enough to qualify for public assistance) unless our employer provides it and companies regularly shift healthcare and other taxes, insurance, etc. onto those working under them by classifying them as "independent contractors". Filling a lot of those gaps is the advantage of a union or guild for performers as performance work isn't necessarily steady which becomes an even bigger problem when there's a monopoly. WWE wrestlers are notoriously categorized as independent contractors even after wrestling became a monopoly 30-40+ years ago. Not to mention Uber drivers and the like.

Anyway, for the VA its mostly about healthcare and savings, for Crunchyroll its about money.

Okay, but I meant more like "people they can call in at the last minute into their local studio for a recording session on a tight deadline." Because of this kind of arrangement, they'll end up with a group of "regulars" who often get called into do stuff due to availability/convenience -- people who are nearby and have experience working with their staff and procedures/methodology. I know they are not employees, and that wasn't what I meant. I apologize for using a confusing term.

When doing these kinds of extremely-time-constrained productions, money will honestly not be the biggest factor. And again, as the actor explained, the issue was not the price they were willing to pay for the job either. By doing a simuldub, their costs will automatically go up compared to a more normal dub schedule. The biggest issue for this kind of production will be about eliminating potential barriers/roadblocks (anything that could be hard to control at the last minute), and I can see how they might consider anyone out-of-market such a complication. The larger point I was trying to get at was whether it's really so important/critical to prioritize timeliness over quality/continuity for dubs, but clearly someone thinks so.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

By doing a simuldub, their costs will automatically go up compared to a more normal dub schedule.

What are you basing this on exactly?

The biggest issue for this kind of production will be about eliminating potential barriers/roadblocks (anything that could be hard to control at the last minute), and I can see how they might consider anyone out-of-market such a complication.

Crunchyroll is still working with other "out-of-market" talent that are non-union... their corporate doublespeak statement regarding Mob contradicts what they've announced for other shows; no matter how you want to frame it the issue is that they don't care about the talent they lose as long as they can evade the union.

The larger point I was trying to get at was whether it's really so important/critical to prioritize timeliness over quality/continuity for dubs, but clearly someone thinks so.

I'm not a dub fan but from what I've seen people on Twitter, Reddit, and elsewhere don't seem interested in giving CR the benefit of the doubt now that they've grown so large so fast and have Sony bucks behind them.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by stray

What are you basing this on exactly?

Experience with complex production management. The tighter your timelines, the less margin you have for error. You need to have redundancies for key staff. You may have to get people to come in off their normal schedule to deal with external delays. You may have to pay a premium to have things expedited. It also has a higher overhead for management because you need to keep things moving much more quickly between the stages and addressing any issues in real-time. Dub production is much more involved/elaborate than sub production (many more steps/stages), which is why it *typically* has lagged behind subs, so speeding up that process is necessarily more expensive.

Originally Posted by stray

Crunchyroll is still working with other "out-of-market" talent that are non-union... their corporate doublespeak statement regarding Mob contradicts what they've announced for other shows; no matter how you want to frame it the issue is that they don't care about the talent they lose as long as they can evade the union.

Just to be more clear, are they working with out-of-market talent on simuldubs (like this show), or just on regular dub productions (with a more normal schedule)?

But anyway, what happened here is that Crunchyroll merged with Funimation, and rather than farming out dub work to LA-based studios like Bang Zoom! (who produced the dubs for previous seasons of this show), they are doing them in-house instead. This same sort of thing happened in the past too when Funimation would license a show that had been previously licensed by someone else, and you'd get this controversy about roles being recast to avoid dealing with union actors.

In the grand scheme of things, it's worth drawing attention to in the sense that increased consolidation in the industry means less competition, and it comes at the expense of quality and continuity. And yeah, because it's Funimation behind the scenes, it means it comes at the expense of unionized actors as well. But it's not like anyone should be at all surprised that merging all these companies was about creating internal efficiencies. (To be a one-stop-shop that can offer simulsub + simuldub + wide distribution was obviously a goal.)

Originally Posted by stray

I'm not a dub fan but from what I've seen people on Twitter, Reddit, and elsewhere don't seem interested in giving CR the benefit of the doubt now that they've grown so large so fast and have Sony bucks behind them.

Honestly, social media revolves around outrage. I would truly like to believe that some substantial amount of anime fans truly care about the lives and working conditions of all those involved with anime production, and would put their money where their mouths are to demonstrate that support. I have sincere doubts about how much those views really scale to the general public. If the simuldub sees better viewership numbers than past seasons, they'll take it as a win, regardless of this drama.

I would actually applaud wide-scale unionization across the anime industry, so don't take my measured response and cynicism as being some attempt to justify the actions of some greedy megacorporation. But at the same time, any honest look at what's going on here can see that getting Funimation/CR to "just meet" with the union is not nearly as small of an ask as they're making it sound (it involves Legal -- have you ever dealt with Legal?), especially when it's a simuldub that starts airing in weeks (so casting decisions were made long ago). This is a PR campaign packaged for easy fan consumption. We'll see if it has an impact.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Just to be more clear, are they working with out-of-market talent on simuldubs (like this show), or just on regular dub productions (with a more normal schedule)?

I mean your question is disingenuous because the distinction you're trying to make doesn't actually exist. There's no last second script changes from Japan and Crunchyroll hasn't even fully taken over Funimation's Bluray publishing arm. Also its comical that you're basically questioning the professionalism of union actors on a deadline... though from your posts I'm really getting the impression that you're just anti-union yourself.

Let me backtrack for a moment here though, because I don't think you understand that the fact they're based out of Texas to begin with is to keep costs low. Texas isn't exactly known as a hotbed of acting talent, aside from anime dubbing there's basically nothing there for aspiring actors. Committing to their "internal team" means a commitment to bottom tier (and obviously non union) talent who is either hoping for something better or who didn't really have the talent in the first place. Monopoly Crunchyroll probably has the leverage to push more actors to move to Texas, but that doesn't remotely mean the overall quality (or continuity, or consistency) of dubs will improve. There's zero commitment to quality in CR's actions, and IMO people are right to be fed up.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

(Likewise with translators -- many people care so little about quality and good writing that they'll settle for machine translation and think it's good enough. Plus, the fansubbing world has caused people to treat the value of translators as $0 because they are used to people being out there who do it for free. So because of this, no one wants to pay translators what they're worth. As long as people value "fast, cheap" above all and have such low standards about writing quality, I'm not sure how you'd convince any company to pay well above "competitive market rates" for translation. If machine translation got "good enough" they'd just ditch translators entirely, because again it's considered "utility" and not actually valued as a craft in its own right. I don't know how you change this perception, but the wider anime industry certainly isn't alone here, nor are Crunchyroll's rates particularly low compared to other similar jobs.)

This is completely false, and that's coming from someone who has a few active anime/manga/game translators in his immediate circle of friends. Translators don't get rich but there are plenty of companies that pay them competitive rates, and put a certain emphasis on the quality of their work. Once established translators generally don't even consider taking work from CR because of their absurdly low rates and complete disinterest in QC.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by stray

I mean your question is disingenuous because the distinction you're trying to make doesn't actually exist. There's no last second script changes from Japan and Crunchyroll hasn't even fully taken over Funimation's Bluray publishing arm. Also its comical that you're basically questioning the professionalism of union actors on a deadline... though from your posts I'm really getting the impression that you're just anti-union yourself.

*sigh* No, I'm not anti-union at all actually, nor am I questioning their professionalism. Honestly, I am offended by this accusation. There actually *are* production differences based on the timescale and constraints of a project, but you've just decided that they don't exist, so why even bother discussing anything?

It's basically impossible to have a discussion with you if you keep interpreting everything I say in the worst way possible, accuse me of being disingenuous, and turn everything back to the same single one-note issue as if nothing else matters at all. I'm not trying to attack or discredit you or say that you're wrong, nor am I even trying to suggest that others who are mad are wrong, but the point of a forum is to have discussions about nuanced topics. And even though this issue is being presented in a very simple way, the fact is that it's a complex topic that has a lot of history behind it.

If you prefer I could just sit here and say that Crunchryroll are cheap anti-union assholes who don't care about anime quality and all deserve to be fired, and Sony is an evil megacorporation who is just trying to extract maximum revenue from workers in the anime space so their executives can get huge bonuses. That may be true on some level, but it's also over-simplistic and there's nothing to actually discuss. Ever since you posted your comment in this thread, it was mostly just one quip after another from people basically saying "yup, Crunchyroll is shit" and I really don't care about people's +1 quips. This forum is to have conversations, so I am trying to delve into the topic with more angles to consider. But whatever I say it's just like "no, fuck you, they're anti-union and that's the end of it, and you not admitting that makes you anti-union too." I mean, seriously, please stop. You don't know me. I like discussing topics from many angles and trying to see the many sides of things. The world is never so black-and-white. We should be able to have more complex discussions about this kind of thing, even if we may disagree.

Originally Posted by stray

Let me backtrack for a moment here though, because I don't think you understand that the fact they're based out of Texas to begin with is to keep costs low. Texas isn't exactly known as a hotbed of acting talent, aside from anime dubbing there's basically nothing there for aspiring actors. Committing to their "internal team" means a commitment to bottom tier (and obviously non union) talent who is either hoping for something better or who didn't really have the talent in the first place. Monopoly Crunchyroll probably has the leverage to push more actors to move to Texas, but that doesn't remotely mean the overall quality (or continuity, or consistency) of dubs will improve. There's zero commitment to quality in CR's actions, and IMO people are right to be fed up.

I do understand that perfectly, actually, but that's been Funimation's M.O. for as long as they've been around. This large argument about Texas dubs being "lower quality" has been going on for a very long time. When Crunchyroll merged with Funimation, everyone should have expected them to use them -- why buy your own in-house studio and not prioritize using them whenever possible?

And, as I explained before, going the simuldub route is an explicit choice to prioritize speed. It is literally a "rush job" compared to the standard of the industry. They are doing this rush even though it may make things more complicated for them due to the tight production constraints. Choosing speed often comes at the expense of quality. (The classic project management triangle of "fast, cheap, good -- pick two") This is why I asked in the first place: are simuldubs really such a big deal that it's worth sacrificing quality and continuity over? I'm not sure that it is (it isn't what I would choose), but this test is certainly going to find out what the masses think.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

This is completely false, and that's coming from someone who has a few active anime/manga/game translators in his immediate circle of friends. Translators don't get rich but there are plenty of companies that pay them competitive rates, and put a certain emphasis on the quality of their work. Once established translators generally don't even consider taking work from CR because of their absurdly low rates and complete disinterest in QC.

I mean, I also have several active anime/manga/game translator friends who do work in this direct space incl. with Crunchyroll, so I'm not basing this on nothing either.

Obviously there are better-paying employers than others, and the good translators are trying to secure the better gigs (better pay, better deadlines, more commitment to quality, etc.). CR does not have a reputation for good pay and their focus is on speed/efficiency over quality, that is for sure. But at the same time, there are better offers, and there are also worse ones. The VN translation scene, for instance, is rather famous for rates even worse than CR, basically to the hobby level (though there are a few exceptions). In general, the attitude towards translation isn't that great among many employers and it doesn't appear to be that valued among a lot of the general fanbase. (Even Netflix, which you mentioned earlier, has gotten into several controversies recently about the quality of their translations.)

It goes back to what I said earlier that I wish people in general valued quality over "fast and cheap" in this general space. There certainly are still some who do, but it seems far too few and far between.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

*sigh* No, I'm not anti-union at all actually, nor am I questioning their professionalism. Honestly, I am offended by this accusation. There actually *are* production differences based on the timescale and constraints of a project, but you've just decided that they don't exist, so why even bother discussing anything?

It's basically impossible to have a discussion with you if you keep interpreting everything I say in the worst way possible, accuse me of being disingenuous, and turn everything back to the same single one-note issue as if nothing else matters at all. I'm not trying to attack or discredit you or say that you're wrong, nor am I even trying to suggest that others who are mad are wrong, but the point of a forum is to have discussions about nuanced topics. And even though this issue is being presented in a very simple way, the fact is that it's a complex topic that has a lot of history behind it.

I'm not super into the devil's advocate routine or concern troll thing where we have to wait and see to make sure anime fans REALLY care about workers right or whatever. Crunchyroll is so big now that people expect a lot more of them, with reason.

Its also misguided to compare an industry like voice acting with corporate divisions where basically any MBA will do. Acting is a craft that is geographically centered outside of Texas in the US, so if you're trying to force people to work there you need to either lure people there or settle for what you get.

We should be able to have more complex discussions about this kind of thing, even if we may disagree.

I guess but if you make divisive statements with caveats I'm going to believe the caveats are the disingenuous part before long. If I'm actually mistaken you probably need to give some thought on how you present your "devil's advocate" routine.

I do understand that perfectly, actually, but that's been Funimation's M.O. for as long as they've been around. This large argument about Texas dubs being "lower quality" has been going on for a very long time. When Crunchyroll merged with Funimation, everyone should have expected them to use them -- why buy your own in-house studio and not prioritize using them whenever possible?

Because you're never going to get anything better than bottom tier talent in Texas? Again, people's expectations are different now that Crunchyroll has 80% of the anime market. And Funi/Crunchy has been doing fine the past two pandemic years with a broader pool of talent; this whole "back to Texas" push is a new thing, and not all talent is subject to it yet.

And, as I explained before, going the simuldub route is an explicit choice to prioritize speed. It is literally a "rush job" compared to the standard of the industry.

ELI5 why union VA can't work on a deadline. If you're not trying to invoke the "union = lazy hurr durr" stereotype I don't understand what point you're even trying to make here.

The VN translation scene, for instance, is rather famous for rates even worse than CR, basically to the hobby level (though there are a few exceptions).

You actually have to pay for speed in the VN translation scene, so it really depends on who is localizing the VN, as some publishers are more interested in paying for it than others.

I'm not sure if you're aware but Seven Seas actually unionized across the board earlier this year.

[SeijiSensei]

As I recall from the early days of CR, translators like Quarkboy reported they'd often not receive the final scripts until a day or two before the telecast. Has that improved now that day/date sub releases are commonplace? Pretty hard to do simuldubbing when you don't have a script.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

As I recall from the early days of CR, translators like Quarkboy reported they'd often not receive the final scripts until a day or two before the telecast. Has that improved now that day/date sub releases are commonplace? Pretty hard to do simuldubbing when you don't have a script.

Yes, based on what we know of the anime industry and production conditions, it's not very likely that this situation has changed at all. There is still the odd show where episodes are done well in advance, but it seems most shows are still "just in time" (assuming they don't slip). And when you think of what's involved with dubbing, there are a lot of steps -- not only does it have to be translated and timed, but you need to do an ADR script that considers things like voice flaps, you have to do the recording under the supervision of the voice director (however many takes that requires), do the video editing and audio mix work (including re-incorporating things like sound effects/foley, etc.), do a QA pass, prepare the final files for production distribution, get sign-off, and so on. In the average production, work on a given episode is likely to be spread over several weeks or more as it goes from one party to the next, but here all that is condensed to a few days at best. (If you receive materials late but still want to hit showtime, it could be even worse. Not sure if they'd ever get it down to same-day, but they could be asked to.)

So you think of what kind of conditions are needed to perform all these steps into such a short period of time. The usual way to solve this kind of problem is for all the players to be working very closely so that you can solve every problem in real-time -- sort of like how you'd handle a live broadcast station or something, with everyone at arm's reach and the someone calling the shots live. You need a really talented line producer with lots of experience, and extremely competent staff who work well in high-pressure time-sensitive environments.

ANN reposted this article from May this year that addresses the larger goal of unionizing production at Crunchyroll, and anticipated that the return to in-person dubbing at the Texas facility (and the desire to use their in-house studio) would create exactly this problem. But it also talks about the fact they upgraded their studio space and that one of the benefits of in-person dubbing was normalizing the sound quality. These are the exact kinds of optimizations you'd be looking for if your goal was ultimately to reduce the production turnaround time to support simuldubs. From their point of view, they may think that something as complex as simuldubs is only possible because all the staff are local, everything happens in-house and in-person with their upgraded studio tools. From a pure process-optimization standpoint, that makes sense.

This is why I asked before: are simuldubs really worth it if it comes at the expense of quality and continuity?

In other words, the thinking likely goes like this:
1. We contractually agreed with the production committee to do this as a simuldub.
2. In order to pull off the complex logistics of a simuldub, we need to rely on our in-house studio and have everyone record in-person to improve turnaround time and reduce risk.
3. Therefore, we need to recast the actors that aren't local.

But they arguably started from a totally wrong premise. If they valued quality and continuity more, it'd be like:

1. We want to ensure a good experience for dub fans, and that means bringing back all the old talent, even though they're out of market.
2. Logistically this will require more time to work remotely and balance the difference in audio clips from various remote actors. It's better to do this properly than on a constant time-crunch.
3. Therefore, we should inform the production committee that simuldub is not possible on this show, and we'll dub on a more normal/regular production schedule to provide a better experience to the fans.

Originally Posted by stray

I'm not super into the devil's advocate routine or concern troll thing

It's really not devil's advocate or concern trolling. It's just that this is a very complex topic; simuldubs introduce a lot more logistical risks that you avoid with a more normal production schedule, and that *is* a factor in the situation. It's not only about avoiding unions (though unions should still be part of the solution).

The ANN article linked is talking about efforts to get the whole studio unionized -- I am 100% in favor. If they are moving towards this kind of time-sensitive simuldub production, then it's all the more important to balance the worker experience with the demanding needs of dynamic productions with lots of potential unknowns.

For example, with this kind of time-sensitive production, you might need to call an actor back into the studio at the last minute to re-record some lines, or when materials come in late you might need to ask your production staff to work late to otherwise hit the deadlines. Because of the very tight timelines, these are "drop everything and do this now" kind of demands (it's basically "on call"), so how are people compensated for those kinds of out-of-the-norm situations? Without any kind of worker protection or consideration, it has the potential to be a very bad work environment. Being unionized doesn't solve all the issues that simuldubs entail, but it makes the conversation about how to address those issues a bit more balanced between management objectives and the workers.

I think you still may find that, in the case of simuldub productions, they still want to do everything in-person at their main studio just for the logistical benefits. But at least it would provide better assurance that the workers are treated fairly and compensated properly.

Now that's what I think *should* happen. But whether that is the takeaway from this whole situation or not, we'll see.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

So you think of what kind of conditions are needed to perform all these steps into such a short period of time. The usual way to solve this kind of problem is for all the players to be working very closely so that you can solve every problem in real-time -- sort of like how you'd handle a live broadcast station or something, with everyone at arm's reach and the someone calling the shots live.

If you've seen depictions of Japanese voice work with like 6 or 8 seiyuu in a single room shuffling around silently let me be clear that that does NOT happen in American productions. In the west almost everything is recorded individually and pieced together in mixing, and remote recording isn't something that just started during the pandemic, well known VA have had home studios set up for decades now. Meanwhile freelancers go to the studio, say their lines, and then go back to driving for Uber or whatever once they're done.

Personally I've always been kind of jealous of the Japanese style and felt like western dubbing was incredibly sterile because of this but again I'm not trying to really shit on dubs here. Japanese still record individually for VN and games and such.

2. Logistically this will require more time to work remotely and balance the difference in audio clips from various remote actors. It's better to do this properly than on a constant time-crunch.

Again, the audio is recorded individually and has to be mixed no matter what, adjusting the audio slightly during the process isn't exactly a big deal.

It's just that this is a very complex topic; simuldubs introduce a lot more logistical risks that you avoid with a more normal production schedule, and that *is* a factor in the situation. It's not only about avoiding unions (though unions should still be part of the solution).

I think one thing that needs to be noted is that (as I understand it) the merger was structured in such a way that Funimation basically swallowed Crunchyroll and most of the processes follow what Funi was already doing. The Texas studio was Funi's studio from back when they used the same 11 VA for everything, and Funi has been doing simuldubs under the Sony umbrella for 5 years now. And I did previously say it was about keeping costs low, though I guess that goes hand in hand with busting unions.

For example, with this kind of time-sensitive production, you might need to call an actor back into the studio at the last minute to re-record some lines, or when materials come in late you might need to ask your production staff to work late to otherwise hit the deadlines. Because of the very tight timelines, these are "drop everything and do this now" kind of demands (it's basically "on call"), so how are people compensated for those kinds of out-of-the-norm situations? Without any kind of worker protection or consideration, it has the potential to be a very bad work environment. Being unionized doesn't solve all the issues that simuldubs entail, but it makes the conversation about how to address those issues a bit more balanced between management objectives and the workers.

Two things here - first off these are not employees, they're freelancers with no healthcare. Most of the scenarios you've laid out seem to forget that. Secondly, I think your premise is fundamentally flawed because you seem to be under the impression this is all happening in an impossible time frame. There's obviously more to them doing same day dubs than just bringing talent in house, especially since they're promising the same for Chainsaw Man with LA talent. Your own logic should tell you that a billion dollar company with 80% of the global anime market and multiple co-production deals probably has more access to scripts than a pirate site in 2009.

Anyway, you seem pretty cynical but the link you posted from May proves this movement didn't come out of nowhere. Japanese media has a spotty history in the west and for a long time people were happy to have a translation or a dub at all, but after a billion dollar merger people can concern themselves with quality and continuity. And a billion dollar company ($85B really) doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that a scrappy independent gets. And then there's also the issue of animator pay, but that's bigger than Crunchyroll though I doubt their involvement on production committees is necessarily helping.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by stray

If you've seen depictions of Japanese voice work with like 6 or 8 seiyuu in a single room shuffling around silently let me be clear that that does NOT happen in American productions. In the west almost everything is recorded individually and pieced together in mixing, and remote recording isn't something that just started during the pandemic, well known VA have had home studios set up for decades now. Meanwhile freelancers go to the studio, say their lines, and then go back to driving for Uber or whatever once they're done.

Yes, I know. The main reason they can't do that in the U.S. is because in Japan they record the voices before the voice flaps are animated, so the flaps match the voices. In other languages, they have to have the voice match the flaps. It'd be almost impossible for a group recording session to have everyone match the flaps in real time and would require too much editing in post to try to retroactively fix it. So they record voices in such a way where they can watch the animation while they act and then check it immediately to make sure the voice lines up with the flaps.

Originally Posted by stray

Again, the audio is recorded individually and has to be mixed no matter what, adjusting the audio slightly during the process isn't exactly a big deal.

But if you're in a really tight time-crunch (like if you were trying to do a day-and-date dub release), it's less work if all the clips are in the same studio, on the same mics, through the same mixer, etc. Because your goal is to be as efficient as possible and any little bit of time you can save is a win. It's not like it's impossible to equalize volume levels, EQ, apply compression, etc. but it takes more time when your clips are from different sources. (I've done enough work on both live and post-produced audio and video productions to know this very well first hand...)

Originally Posted by stray

Two things here - first off these are not employees, they're freelancers with no healthcare. Most of the scenarios you've laid out seem to forget that.

I was not only talking about the impact on actors. Most of the production crew will be employees, and they are also impacted by the situation. But even though the actors are freelancers, being unionized could entitle them to appropriate benefits/considerations for the job they do (which could include contributions to healthcare plans)... which is what I was advocating in that quote.

Originally Posted by stray

Secondly, I think your premise is fundamentally flawed because you seem to be under the impression this is all happening in an impossible time frame. There's obviously more to them doing same day dubs than just bringing talent in house, especially since they're promising the same for Chainsaw Man with LA talent. Your own logic should tell you that a billion dollar company with 80% of the global anime market and multiple co-production deals probably has more access to scripts than a pirate site in 2009.

They've announced that Chainsaw Man is getting a dub and is being simulcast, but the timeframe is for the dub is listed as TBA. Most of the dubs in the past were in the "weeks after airing" timeframe, as that's the more normal schedule for traditional streaming dubs these days.

And of course I never said it was "impossible." I'm saying that the more you try to shorten the schedule and achieve "day-and-date" release (which seems to be their goal), the more you need to focus on efficiency. And when you're focused on maximizing efficiency, it makes sense to try to do more things in-house. And the point I was getting at to start with is that, for simuldubs, the return to the office (after pandemic-driven WfH) and trying to do more work in-studio is probably their goal more than specifically spiting unions -- even though the fact their "house" is in Texas, a notoriously union-hostile state, is no coincidence either.

Originally Posted by stray

after a billion dollar merger people can concern themselves with quality and continuity. And a billion dollar company ($85B really) doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that a scrappy independent gets.

Again, I think you're completely misinterpreting what I've been saying from the get-go. I've never once suggested or implied that it's somehow wrong or bad for people to be concerned with quality and continuity -- exactly the opposite. I've been lamenting the fact that, at least in my experience, not enough people care about this, whether it's fans or companies.

It's like... let's go back to the origins of this site as a fansub hub for a minute. What we learned back in the day was that the vast majority of the downloads for an episode went to whatever sub came out fastest, even if they were "speedsubs" (i.e., lower quality). Some people would wait for the "good subs" but most just wanted fast. (Some people would download both and they'd keep the good fansubs for archival. The fansub/scanlation groups I was in always focused more on quality than speed, because that's what most of us cared about most, and it's one of the reasons I eventually left the scene -- producing quality work takes time and not that many people valued that effort.) As Crunchyroll transitioned from an illegal fansub reposting site to a licensed streaming site, they learned the same lesson fansubbers did: the masses care more about fast than they do about quality. And they also saw that there were plenty of fans who could do fast translation work cheap, and they co-opted that cheap labor as their business model.

The point about "they're a rich company now, they should be held to a higher standard"... I guess that's where my cynicism really comes in. Companies care about metrics. If their data showed that they would increase their conversions and views by focusing on quality, they'd do it. But if their data supports that "we can improve our efficiency by moving everything in house and reduce turnaround time, and that increases our conversions/views even higher" -- that's what they'll do. So absent truly strong demand from customers that correlates with metrics (and not just a spat on social media), it's probably right that unionization (or threat of it) is one of the only semi-reliable ways to push companies towards valuing anything other than maximizing RoI and increasing profit for the shareholders/owners.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

And of course I never said it was "impossible." I'm saying that the more you try to shorten the schedule and achieve "day-and-date" release (which seems to be their goal), the more you need to focus on efficiency. And when you're focused on maximizing efficiency, it makes sense to try to do more things in-house. And the point I was getting at to start with is that, for simuldubs, the return to the office (after pandemic-driven WfH) and trying to do more work in-studio is probably their goal more than specifically spiting unions -- even though the fact their "house" is in Texas, a notoriously union-hostile state, is no coincidence either.

One of those "efficiencies" is an arrangement with the production committee and studio to get scripts in advance, which you seem to be struggling to believe is possible. Dubbing in Japan is done well before the animation is completed, at least a few weeks if not months before broadcast.

Its become pretty common in gaming to have simultaneous worldwide release of games that years ago required 6 months or more to localize and dub. Atlus for example just put out Soul Hackers 2 globally last month. Its no longer accepted for the American production team to start only after the Japanese production team has concluded, especially with western companies more involved in the production. Monopsony is probably a better word (than monopoly) to describe the problem with Crunchyroll right now; the leverage they have over dub actors and the leverage they're gaining within Japan.

It's like... let's go back to the origins of this site as a fansub hub for a minute. What we learned back in the day was that the vast majority of the downloads for an episode went to whatever sub came out fastest, even if they were "speedsubs" (i.e., lower quality). Some people would wait for the "good subs" but most just wanted fast. (Some people would download both and they'd keep the good fansubs for archival. The fansub/scanlation groups I was in always focused more on quality than speed, because that's what most of us cared about most, and it's one of the reasons I eventually left the scene -- producing quality work takes time and not that many people valued that effort.) As Crunchyroll transitioned from an illegal fansub reposting site to a licensed streaming site, they learned the same lesson fansubbers did: the masses care more about fast than they do about quality. And they also saw that there were plenty of fans who could do fast translation work cheap, and they co-opted that cheap labor as their business model.

The point about "they're a rich company now, they should be held to a higher standard"... I guess that's where my cynicism really comes in. Companies care about metrics. If their data showed that they would increase their conversions and views by focusing on quality, they'd do it. But if their data supports that "we can improve our efficiency by moving everything in house and reduce turnaround time, and that increases our conversions/views even higher" -- that's what they'll do. So absent truly strong demand from customers that correlates with metrics (and not just a spat on social media), it's probably right that unionization (or threat of it) is one of the only semi-reliable ways to push companies towards valuing anything other than maximizing RoI and increasing profit for the shareholders/owners.

Maybe its not intentional but it still sounds like you're basically concern trolling here. And again, for a very long time the mantra was to "support!" even a mediocre product because Japanese media was so niche we were lucky to get even that. You're not really giving context for the assertions you're making; of course people who are starving for content aren't going to be picky. Money changes everything. As far as the fansub scene though - if speedsubs were bad they were typically gone after a few weeks at most... and name recognition was really important as well. Though I'll never understand why memesubs like Commie were so popular. There's plenty of speedsubs that were fairly competent, too. Speed and quality are not mutually exclusive, but if you want them both it generally costs money.

That's the thing, you've got this whole argument that this somehow isn't about money but... in the end its about money. Union are craftspeople with experience who are perfectly capable of working on a tight deadline but who expect to be paid commensurately. That's the issue. Whatever bullshit you're saying about "traditional dub schedules" is a distraction that sounds incredibly anti-union.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by stray

One of those "efficiencies" is an arrangement with the production committee and studio to get scripts in advance, which you seem to be struggling to believe is possible. Dubbing in Japan is done well before the animation is completed, at least a few weeks if not months before broadcast.

Yes, because, as I explained before, in Japan dubbing is done before they animate the flaps, and in other languages it has to be done after. They are not going to re-animate the flaps to match each dub language... but they can do things like that in videogames (where they can have the mouth movement drawn dynamically based on the waveform). So because of this, with anime, even getting the script well in advance does not help because the animation needs to be finished and that tends to be very last minute for most productions when doing a weekly-released "simulcast." As I also said earlier, there have been a few known shows where the production was done well before the airdate, but they have traditionally been the exception not the rule. Another way they can do this is launch the whole show in a batch (traditional Netflix model), but the whole simulcast/simuldub thing is about shows that air on TV in Japan as the primary market. So that is why this "time-crunch" situation occurs the closer you want to hit day-and-date. (And just to be really fucking clear, just because this is an issue is NOT me trying to suggest IN ANY WAY that it could not be addressed appropriately by unionized workers.)

Originally Posted by stray

Whatever bullshit you're saying about "traditional dub schedules" is a distraction that sounds incredibly anti-union.

Okay. I've been trying to discuss the wider issues of production management, but to you this whole thing is about one thing and one thing only: Crunchyroll/Funimation is anti-union. So even trying to discuss the production complexities or challenges inherent to this approach (that would need to be addressed union or not) is seen by you as some sort of "deflection." Like, we shouldn't even worry about it because whatever the issues are don't justify not having a union -- and I was never saying or implying that at all. Frankly this makes it impossible to have a normal conversation with you. It's like every single thing I say is some sort of "attack" that needs to be "disarmed" or something, lest people be somehow misled into thinking Funimation may not be entirely 100% in the wrong (because even trying to consider the problem from their point of view is apparently "defending them"). Even after I've tried repeatedly to make my views clear and address any misunderstanding, you're still here dismissing arguments as "bullshit" and "distractions" and insinuating that I might have an anti-union agenda. That's not appropriate or fair at all. If you were doing this to someone else on this forum, I'd moderate it.

So anyway, I think I've been plenty patient in trying to explain myself as clearly as I can, but I'm done.

[stray]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Yes, because, as I explained before, in Japan dubbing is done before they animate the flaps, and in other languages it has to be done after.

That's not really correct at all, or maybe it was a long, long time ago. How long each line needs to take is worked out well before recording; anime seiyuu dub to a rough cut (or keyframes) with "flaps" already animated, or to an animated storyboard that's pretty strictly timed with like... karaoke cues. Its actually pretty impressive they're doing this while sharing mic stands in a room with a bunch of other seiyuu but... I guess we were talking about American voice actors.

Okay. I've been trying to discuss the wider issues of production management, but to you this whole thing is about one thing and one thing only: Crunchyroll/Funimation is anti-union.

I mean... that was the discussion we were having before you jumped in. If you want to mod me that's your prerogative but respectfully - I don't see the merit in the conversation you want to have here. I don't know what else to tell you. Its nothing personal.

[SeijiSensei]

I thought most anime were dubbed after the frames are shot. As I recall it was unusual that Matsuo Kou recorded the voices first in shows like Kurenai and Red Garden, because that method is more expensive.

[stray]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

I thought most anime were dubbed after the frames are shot.

AFAIK it depends on where in the process production is. Normally key animation is complete but inbetween animation is what can sometimes bump up against broadcast schedules.

As I recall it was unusual that Matsuo Kou recorded the voices first in shows like Kurenai and Red Garden, because that method is more expensive.

The issue isn't when the audio track is done, its whether the audio track is being used as a reference for the animation, which isn't common in Japanese productions and I don't know that it ever was. That is how animation used to be done in "golden age" western animation though... but I think that fell out of favor by the '70s or '80s... and its not like 2D western animation even exists in 2022.

[stray]

On the video gaming side of things Bayonetta's (previous) English VA took to Twitter to shame Nintendo and Platinum for their lowball offer.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by stray

On the video gaming side of things Bayonetta's (previous) English VA took to Twitter to shame Nintendo and Platinum for their lowball offer.

I saw that...honestly, $4k...that's all they offered her?!

You have to invest something significant in the voices to make it work. Game devs are already on gruelling schedules and get little of the financial gains or credit in Western companies.

For a lot of the workplace issues Japan has, they seem to treat the VA talent better overall in terms of payment and future opportunities. Emphasis on overall but it feels like a success story like Crispin Freeman just wouldn't happen today.

[Sides]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

I saw that...honestly, $4k...that's all they offered her?!

You have to invest something significant in the voices to make it work. Game devs are already on gruelling schedules and get little of the financial gains or credit in Western companies.

For a lot of the workplace issues Japan has, they seem to treat the VA talent better overall in terms of payment and future opportunities. Emphasis on overall but it feels like a success story like Crispin Freeman just wouldn't happen today.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-nintendo-game

Looks like she was offered way beyond union rates, but she wanted more. Maybe she was ill advised by her agent, who knows.