Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury - General Discussion Thread

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

On a separate note, I do question the potential yuri. While it’s not my cup of tea I don’t have anything against yuri really, and if it’s leading to a Kira/Athrun friendship then there’s certainly nothing wrong with that. But if their aim is a romantic relationship, why make it yuri???? Were they just that worried about making a male romantic partner into a prince in distress/beta to an alpha female?????

Because why not? They're already trying something new by having a female protagonist, why not go further? It's something they've never explored before.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by velvet nightmare

who exactly is the target audience for this series?

Regarding the target audience, I'd say that it's likely the same as proper Gundam TV series from the last few decades - a mix of Gundam fans as well as younger fans (typically teenagers).

I was reading through the Japanese wikipedia page for the series yesterday and the producers said that the school setting was chosen to help it appeal to teenagers (to lower barriers to entry). I've not seen any particular reason given for a female protagonist.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

Suletta wasn't even aware of most it and wasn't even aware of what was actually happening given her mood in that cockpit. Her mom does though and her primary motivation of setting everything in motion is revenge. It also doesn't the change the fact that the massacred happened and they are still trying to bury Gundams even later on, likely with ulterior motives.

You’re proving my point here. Gundam is and always has been about the impact of war/conflict on the MC. If the MC isn’t even aware of the massacre it can’t impact her. Even now it doesn’t look like her mother ever told her what happened that day and how her father died. Beyond the massacre, the only “conflict” right now is this cliched academy and duel setting.

Why not yuri though? It's not exactly a rare concept in anime for a long while. Just like there wouldn't be anything wrong if if was a heterosexual couple or yaoi couple.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Because why not? They're already trying something new by having a female protagonist, why not go further? It's something they've never explored before.

This is going to get into that can of worms that I wanted to avoid…..but it feels like they’re going for yuri because they don’t really believe in a female Gundam MC and are making this a shoujo anime, hence Mobile Suit Utena. There’s no reason to bring in yuri or yaoi any more than any Gundam series, yet the studio/writers/staff did for the first time ever when we just happen to have a female MC. It feels like this is also why we have this casual academy setting instead of the Gundam setting of a war/conflict, because they themselves don’t really believe in a female Gundam MC, they just put one in to attract people to something new and to sell model kits. I’ve been waiting a female Gundam MC for years and years, and when they make us think we’ve got one finally, it’s actually Mobile Suit Utena. Shoujo Gundam Academy at best. Like I said in my previous post, I hope this changes.

As I said this is a can of worms that I didn’t want to get in to, but I didn’t want to just ignore you guys. I’ve voiced my thoughts on the matter, now it’s a mess waiting to happen. I don’t want to muck up the thread with it, so I won’t dig into this can anymore.

Originally Posted by SonicSP

Suletta also very much wouldn't be an alpha female. She's not even the alpha female in the current potential pairing.

She’s plenty alpha in the relationship; she’s socially awkward, but that’s the only thing holding back her assertiveness which she displayed plenty in not only challenging Guel without real hesitation but literally spanking him, just like she was quick and decisive to go out and save Miorine in the beginning of episode 1, only being beta in interacting with the ship crew to launch. And a) she’s the overpowered transfer student who easily destroyed the loudmouth bully in true cliche anime academy duel style and b) for all Miorine’s aggressiveness, she’s (so far) been useless when the chips are down. She was the damsel in distress, literally on her knees in the face of Guel’s bullying, and couldn’t lift a finger against him in the duel. She’s alpha in mouth only, which is actually a good contrast to Suletta who is alpha in everything except mouth.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I hope this actually becomes a Gundam series. I really do. But for now, I honestly enjoy Mobile Suit Utena. I really like Suletta and Miorine, the animation has been beautiful, and it’s solidly on my weekly must-watch list with Tensei shitara Ken deshita, Bleach, and Urusei Yatsura in a few days. So far it’s a great show for what it is……....which is not Gundam.

Reminds me of a talk I had with someone in other discussion board sometimes ago.
I asked him what's his opinion on WoM being Gundam with female protagonist and yuri bait for first episode.

He explained that in general Gundam is a formulaic works.
Wing - SEED - 00 - IBO mainline were a streak of young soldier MC with more or less similar format but different pilots and technology causing the audience stagnate on certain group of people which is bad for Gunpla business model so clearly WoM being female-centric is effort to alleviate that; such turn of events caused by Sunrise own decision to keep Gundam "clean" so ideas like: MC is tactician capable of mind control (Code Geass), madlad female pilot (Cross Ange) and duo MC (Buddy Complex) became its own anime rather than 'belongs to' Gundam as their mold doesn't fit but promising enough.

Since WoM made it into Gundam, we concluded it won't stray the Gundam 'guidelines' on bigger picture.
Whether they able to keep audience interested is different matters because Aerial debut compare to Barbatos and Exia made it clear they tried to lower the entry level for wider audience. I kind of understand your concern regarding 'opening can of worms' as my experience told me, yuri sells but it didn't necessarily lead to healthier audience.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

All I'm gonna say is: it's still 3 episodes. Let's just chill.

The Prologue is already violent enough. Meanwhile, the main show is set in school and it focuses more on the corporate stuff which is refreshing to a longtime Gundam fan like me. I always want an anime where I can get inside the Zeonic, Zimmad, Anaheim or SNRI companies. And this is the closest I get so far.

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Why do I not count it as Gundam? Where’s the gritty war setting to hit and shape our young protagonist?

I hope this actually becomes a Gundam series. I really do. But for now, I honestly enjoy Mobile Suit Utena. I really like Suletta and Miorine, the animation has been beautiful, and it’s solidly on my weekly must-watch list with Tensei shitara Ken deshita, Bleach, and Urusei Yatsura in a few days. So far it’s a great show for what it is……....which is not Gundam.

I suggest you to read Mobile Suit Gundam: École du Ciel manga from 2001 which predates WFM when it comes to a "Gundam story in school" complete with a female main lead. Not all Gundam stories have to start with the MC being traumatized early in the game.

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I suggest you to read Mobile Suit Gundam: École du Ciel manga from 2001 which predates WFM when it comes to a "Gundam story in school" complete with a female main lead. Not all Gundam stories have to start with the MC being traumatized early in the game.

I did. I’m aware of Asuna and her series, though I haven’t actually finished it. (in fact i haven’t read it for a long time) But that wasn’t a cliched academy and duel setting (at the time), but rather an actual military training school. And they actually had real war/conflict, as well as carrying into the Gryps Conflict I believe. As I recall Asuna’s romantic interest died in combat….at the end of volume three? It was at the end of one of the volumes early-ish in the story. That was very much in line with a Gundam series.

I do hope MS Utena gets down to actual conflict like EdC did.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

All I'm gonna say is: it's still 3 episodes. Let's just chill.

The Prologue is already violent enough. Meanwhile, the main show is set in school and it focuses more on the corporate stuff which is refreshing to a longtime Gundam fan like me. I always want an anime where I can get inside the Zeonic, Zimmad, Anaheim or SNRI companies. And this is the closest I get so far.

I've watched a few reviews on YouTube and everyone's been very positive. Seems to be a winner so far.

I'd always seen Gundam as space opera rather than hard core sci-fi. I don't expect everything to make sense immediately (or even ever). I remember finding the religious overtones early in 00 to be rather weird but was happy enough with the overall series, particularly the excellent production values. (Rather ironic how we've gone from "Gundam is god" to "Gundam is the devil", kinda)

Normally I'd get bored with a school setting but so far this feels quite refreshing.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Speaking of being chill, here, you can built your own articulated Suletta :

YouTube

https://youtu.be/pQ4zEVQqW5A

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

[Kazu-kun]

It's way to early to cast judgment on how gritty the show is gonna be. On the surface things might seem relatively chill right now but there's enough conflict brewing in the background that we can make a fairly educated guess shit is gonna hit the fan soon enough.

For example, you have Elnora's scheme for revenge going on. She's clearly not doing all this just to make GUND tech relevant again. Nah, she wants blood, and she's willing to put her own daughter in danger to get it. I can only imagine what's gonna happen when this blows up on everyone's faces.

On top of that, the tension between Earth and Space folks is so thick you could cut it with a knife. And that's just in school, you can imagine the animosity between Earth and Space is even worse in the outside world. This is war waiting to happen.

So just give the series a chance to show its cards. It just started and so far it's decent enough.

[Frontier]

I think things are definitely going to escalate as we get further down the plot, but I don't see anything in this show that doesn't make it a Gundam series.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And that is still a much better writing compared to Marvel's Black Panther. Asticassia is just a school. Imagine if the fate of an entire country is decided by duels. In BP, the people of Wakanda claimed that they are technologically, socially & culturally more advanced than other countries....only to have "tribal duel (to the death)" being the deciding factor for any champion of each tribe to be king & rule the kingdom . And that movie was nominated for Best Picture in the Academy Awards .

Wakanda's always had an interesting balance between the sci-fi utopia stuff and the spiritual tribal stuff. I mean, they worship a Panther Goddess .

Originally Posted by Shinji103

She’s plenty alpha in the relationship; she’s socially awkward, but that’s the only thing holding back her assertiveness which she displayed plenty in not only challenging Guel without real hesitation but literally spanking him, just like she was quick and decisive to go out and save Miorine in the beginning of episode 1, only being beta in interacting with the ship crew to launch. And a) she’s the overpowered transfer student who easily destroyed the loudmouth bully in true cliche anime academy duel style and b) for all Miorine’s aggressiveness, she’s (so far) been useless when the chips are down. She was the damsel in distress, literally on her knees in the face of Guel’s bullying, and couldn’t lift a finger against him in the duel. She’s alpha in mouth only, which is actually a good contrast to Suletta who is alpha in everything except mouth.

Miorine standing up to her father was a very powerful moment in my opinion.

Like any good relationship, the pair need each other to balance each other out.

[kuroyanagi]

Akiba Souken posted a 2-part interview with G-Witch producer Okamoto Takuya that sheds some light on the series's direction.
https://akiba-souken.com/article/58646/
https://akiba-souken.com/article/58647/

Spoiler for Quick summary:

- Okamoto joined the production in 2020, but work on a new Gundam series started earlier, in 2018. The idea to make the protagonist a girl was there at the start
- "All Gundam series target teens, as a baseline. That was my course of action and that was the order I received (from Bandai)"
- At first, the concept was for the series to have a serious tone from the start; the idea of a school came later, as Okamoto felt the need to make the setting more accessible for the audience
- Okamoto had a chance to speak with a few teens; they told him they "don't feel Gundam is targeted at them" and that "they wouldn't watch something with Gundam in the title"; he says those words made an impression on him
- When first working on the project draft, Okamoto's concern was that "war between major nations" as a theme wouldn't feel relatable for the younger generations; he wanted to make something to make the teens go, "hey, this is about us!"
- About hand-drawn mecha in G-Witch: "I think that if Sunrise were to stop having hand-drawn mecha in TV series, there would be nobody else who would that. I thought if it's the right thing to let that art die."
- Aerial is said to be feminine, but Okamoto didn't think about that at all. The concept was of a bodybuilder, with bulky thighs and a narrow waist.

So yeah, it seems like they're going with the concept of the war coming to Suletta's doorstep, which seems solid.
It also seems like the strategy of targetting people who would normally avoid Gundam is paying off; I feel like I see a bunch of people who enjoyed Birdie Wing and LycoReco in previous seasons who are getting into this

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by kuroyanagi

- Aerial is said to be feminine, but Okamoto didn't think about that at all. The concept was of a bodybuilder, with bulky thighs and a narrow waist.

Finally, sweet vindication. I kept telling people Aerial's design was most likely inspired by a male athlete rather than a woman but they kept going on and on about how feminine it looked. Well, what do you know, I was RIGHT!!

[Frontier]

Well, it still looks kind of feminine to me .

That's interesting that modern JP teens seem out of touch with Gundam. I wonder if stuff like Build Fighters/Divers felt more accessible to them.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's way too early to cast judgment on how gritty the show is gonna be.

Which is exactly why I said I hope it does change. But given MS Utena is only about 24 episodes, it doesn’t have much time to become a Gundam series.

Originally Posted by Frontier

Well, it still looks kind of feminine to me .

It honestly does.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Which is exactly why I said I hope it does change. But given MS Utena is only about 24 episodes, it doesn’t have much time to become a Gundam series.

It sounds to me like you never watched Utena. From beginning to end, Utena always fought for Anthy's sake. Meaning, Utena could have stopped fighting and walked away from all the duel shenanigans at any time and there would have been no consequences for herself. Anthy would have suffered but Utena herself would have been fine. While Witch from Mercury followed a similar formula in episode 1, having Suletta fighting for Miorine's sake, it already departed from that formula in episode 2. After episode 2 Sulleta is not fighting for Miorine anymore. Now she's gonna have to fight for her own sake, namely to avoid getting expelled and having Aeriel dismantled. That's different from Utena's premise. On top of that there's also the matter of Suletta's mother using her as a tool for revenge. That wasn't a thing in Utena either. No one ever used Utena as a tool for revenge or anything like that.

Honestly, just because episode 1 had some homage to Utena, it doesn't mean the show will be Utena with Gundams. Episode 2 has proved that's not what the staff is trying to do. This is very much its own story.

[Shinji103]

No I didn’t watch Utena. I never said I did. But I do know the basic gist of the series. I just called this MS Utena because everybody was meme-ing the Utena similarity and it fits the sarcasm I’m aiming for.

[Frontier]

I mean, if the first cour is the school stuff and the second is the actual war portion, that would seem pretty reasonable to me.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

I just called this MS Utena because everybody was meme-ing the Utena similarity and it fits the sarcasm I’m aiming for.

Maybe you're taking memes too seriously.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Maybe you're taking memes too seriously.

I literally said there in your quote of my post that it’s sarcasm.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's way to early to cast judgment on how gritty the show is gonna be. On the surface things might seem relatively chill right now but there's enough conflict brewing in the background that we can make a fairly educated guess shit is gonna hit the fan soon enough.

For example, you have Elnora's scheme for revenge going on. She's clearly not doing all this just to make GUND tech relevant again. Nah, she wants blood, and she's willing to put her own daughter in danger to get it. I can only imagine what's gonna happen when this blows up on everyone's faces.

On top of that, the tension between Earth and Space folks is so thick you could cut it with a knife. And that's just in school, you can imagine the animosity between Earth and Space is even worse in the outside world. This is war waiting to happen.

So just give the series a chance to show its cards. It just started and so far it's decent enough.

Indeed. The rest is my thoughts on this topic, expanding on the above:

In courses on creative writing or the like you'll see discussion on "the learning curve" - how much new stuff you throw at the reader, how quickly and for how long. What kind of learning curve works best depends on the genre and target audience.

In the prologue here we got quite a steep learning curve... but I don't think it was shown on TV. You could say that the target audience was older on average. But even then they didn't explain a huge amount. We saw enough to (just about) understand the reasons behind the action scenes but not a whole lot more. In episode 1, we don't start with 5 minutes of exposition explaining the setup of the story from a high level. Instead we start with something very simple and familiar (preparing for first day at school) but in an unconventional setting (in a Gundam's cockpit). And the rest of the episode only used about the minimum amount of exposition needed to follow the plot. This keeps the learning curve relatively simple and shallow, making it easier for teenagers to follow (the most important demographic to expand the franchise). Although the tone and character focus in episode 2 is quite different, the learning curve is similar.

In other words, we the viewers are getting more of a steady drip of information. This leaves a lot of open questions but they've already hinted at plenty going ahead.

We could break down the main potential areas of conflict like this:

1. Conflict between individuals
2. Conflict between groups within the same organisation (including companies within the overall Beneritt Group)
3. Conflict between separate groups (eg between the Beneritt Group and their peers)
4. Conflict within the entire setting (Earthians vs Spacians)

In the prologue it could be argued that the main conflict we saw was something of a mix of (3) and (4) - a bunch of separate groups (large Spacian company groups) ganged up on another group (an Earthian group). That resulted in conflict between individuals as well but more due to the groups they belonged to and less for individual reasons.

In episode 1 we mostly see (1) - conflict between individual students. There was a bit of (2) as well.

In episode 2 we see more of (1) but also some of (2) and (3) and also (4).

It’s easier to keep the learning curve simple by keeping the action and conflict simple in the beginning, hence most of the conflict has been of type (1). But we’ve already seen people killed due to (3) and (4). From the perspective of keeping the learning curve simple, there’d be no benefit in introducing these higher level conflicts if they weren’t going to have a payoff later. I don’t know how quickly or how far things will escalate but I’m sure they will.