Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

..... In order to activate the Var spread by the Windermerians apples the song of wind must be sung.

Not correct episode 1 prologue left a hint with the apple. The bus bomber wasn't on Al Shahal he was in a emigration fleet. The chemical Seidznole is produced by a mixture of apples and Protoculture ruin water which are exported. Seidznole causes an abnormal growth of Fold Bacteria that can cause Var.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

We do know however several years before perfecting mind control we know Var has caused deaths of civilians across the galaxy. As Windermere spread those apples. Marianburg on Aifheim was wiped out by Var before Walkure got there two years ago. We saw the 10 incidents before in Al Shahal had civilian casualties. Heinz cause Zentradi troops in a frenzy to attack civilians in episode 1.

Here is what is hypocritical of the Aerial Knights. They do not want to die protecting other worlds. They perfectly fine with enslaved soldiers dying for them.

These guys are exemplifying the worst traits of the Protoculture and the Protodevlin.

Yes, in episode one VAR was a mixture of uncontrolled VAR victims and experiments by windermere, however - as mentioned in episode 5 - VAR is controllable with the help of the wind singer.

Also an interesting thesis that windermere apple and ruin water caused the VAR casualties on Marienburg and Alfheim. Can you tell me where this has been told? I think I missed this part and all I remember is that VAR caused the casualties but not that is has been increased the disease by windermere apple in combination with ruin water on that what happened on Marienburg and Alfheim.

Wwe know that VAR controlled NUN pilots were used against military targets. But. We are not sure about VAR controlled civilians against non controlled or military targets.

I am putting into discussion what is more worse. An ally who backfires at his own comrades, or an enemy where I know how to fight back, because VAR is reduced songs by Walküre.

I am not telling that Windermere is all good in their action. But each war for souvereignity was always with civil casualties in our past.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Does anyone really engage in these sort of discussions with the purpose of changing other people's views?

Generally speaking, I like changing other people's views and I like it when other people persuade me to change my views. Those are the most productive discussions, in my opinion, because a change in understanding and perspective can be very enlightening.

Now, this certainly isn't the only reason I engage in these sorts of discussions. It's also good to simply learn more about what other viewer's think of the show and characters being watched. But sure, I think it's generally good when two people start out on opposite sides of an issue and discussion can bring them closer together, through both sides making some concessions to the other.

I don't see anything arrogant about any of this.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Does anyone really engage in these sort of discussions with the purpose of changing other people's views? That sounds a little arrogant to me.

I don't know, man. I'm personally a person who can adjust if superior evidence is brought before me. But I think I am one of very few people on the internet who can manage to do so, as I have noticed in my twenty years of posting online. Most people are not capable of even acknowledging it if indisputable facts are brought before them when those facts run counter to their own beliefs.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I like changing other people's views, and I like it when other people persuade me to change my views. Those are the most productive discussions, in my opinion, because a change in understanding and perspective can be very enlightening.

Now, this certainly isn't the only reason I engage in these sorts of discussions. It's also good to simply learn more about what other viewer's think of the show and characters being watched. But sure, I think it's generally good when two people start out on opposite sides of an issue and discussion can bring them closer together, through both sides making some concessions to the other.

I don't see anything arrogant about any of this.

The problem starts when you have to argue 1 vs 2 +. This give more headache rather than having a constructive conversation.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Yes, in episode one VAR was a mixture of uncontrolled VAR victims and experiments by windermere, however - as mentioned in episode 5 - VAR is controllable with the help of the wind singer.

Also an interesting thesis that windermere apple and ruin water caused the VAR casualties on Marienburg and Alfheim. Can you tell me where this has been told? I think I missed this part and all I remember is that VAR caused the casualties but not that is has been increased the disease by windermere apple in combination with ruin water on that what happened on Marienburg and Alfheim.

Wwe know that VAR controlled NUN pilots were used against military targets. But. We are not sure about VAR controlled civilians against non controlled or military targets.

I am putting into discussion what is more worse. An ally who backfires at his own comrades, or an enemy where I know how to fight back, because VAR is reduced songs by Walküre.

I am not telling that Windermere is all good in their action. But each war for souvereignity was always with civil casualties in our past.

Messer was in Alfheim NUNS forces when he had Var. He comments Galaxy apple aka Windermerean apples are cheap and healthy. Meaning he eats the damn things even back then. Windermere smuggled their apples to military procurement through dummy corporations over various worlds and fleets over the years. Civilians also eats these apples as shown to the effect on Al Shahal and Ragna civilians of Heinz song.

Windermere made it occupational policy to forbid local produce on Voldor markets only allowing Windermere apples. Voldor doesn't agree with Windermere that is much evident but they willing to wait for this generation to die off. However Windermere in establishing their Wind Supremacy would not see Voldor free and revolting against them instead become their mind controlled slaves.

Windermere may have not started Var but they sure escalated the problem by their actions.

[Father Hentai]

Ok. Found what you meant. This was on Voldor.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Windermere may have not started Var but they sure escalated the problem by their actions.

I already mentioned something about this: "I am not telling that Windermere is all good in their action. But each war for souvereignity was always with civil casualties in our past."

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Ok. Found what you meant. This was on Voldor.



I already mentioned something about this: "I am not telling that Windermere is all good in their action. But each war for souvereignity was always with civil casualties in our past."

Except this isn't a war for sovereignty but for conquest. They already had their sovereignty.

That is what their Wind Supremacy (Seifuuken) is all about.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Except this isn't a war for sovereignty but for conquest. They already had their sovereignty.

That is what their Wind Supremacy (Seifuuken) is all about.

It is also a war for sovereignty and to reach that you need more planets than just your homeworld. This includes to conquer planets for this cause. It would be totally dumb if you let your enemies directly in front of your kingdom with just a few jumps to reach the central world.

But again. War for sovereignty was always with civil casualties.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It is also a war for sovereignty and to reach that you need more planets than just your homeworld.

I have no words. I want to respond, but I have no idea HOW. Your sentence simply doesn't make any sense.

This is why I stopped posting in this thread. At some point I start to feel like I am responding to alien creatures who have complete different thought processes.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I have no words. I want to respond, but I have no idea HOW. Your sentence simply doesn't make any sense.

This is why I stopped posting in this thread. At some point I start to feel like I am responding to alien creatures who have complete different thought processes.

Have you ever played Master of Orion? If yes, you know what I mean.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Have you ever played Master of Orion? If yes, you know what I mean.

If you mean "A game where the goal is world domination", then I still fail to see your point. So you are saying Windermere is aiming for world domination?

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It is also a war for sovereignty and to reach that you need more planets than just your homeworld. This includes to conquer planets for this cause. It would be totally dumb if you let your enemies directly in front of your kingdom with just a few jumps to reach the central world.

But again. War for sovereignty was always with civil casualties.

lolwut? ^^

Alright, you guys, if we ever reach spaceflight, first order of business is to conquer every planet 10 lightyears around Earth and enslave the populaces of the races we encounter, because SOVEREIGNITY.

Fuck THEIR sovereignity, apparently.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

lolwut? ^^

Alright, you guys, if we ever reach spaceflight, first order of business is to conquer every planet 10 lightyears around Earth and enslave the populaces of the races we encounter, because SOVEREIGNITY.

Fuck THEIR sovereignity, apparently.

Well, if they liked their sovereignty so much, they wouldn't have stopped at one crater, would they? Clearly, it's the fault of the NUNG. Thanks, Space Obama.

[BetoJR]

You guys REALLY scare me.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, if they liked their sovereignty so much, they wouldn't have stopped at one crater, would they? Clearly, it's the fault of the NUNG. Thanks, Space Obama.

Since the speech of Roid is was really thinking a lot about Putin and the Annexion of the Ukrainian Krim region.

It all started when the Nato placed their weaponry across the former Russian state although Russia government warned the Nato several times not to place any missiles across the neutral Zone. At the end Ukraine was in civil war with Russia and Krim got annexed. According to UN council the Annexion was illegal but the Krim is still under Russia "protection."

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Since the speech of Roid is was really thinking a lot about Putin and the Annexion of the Ukrainian Krim region.

It all started when the Nato placed their weaponry across the former Russian state although Russia government warned the Nato several times not to place any missiles across the neutral Zone. At the end Ukraine was in civil war with Russia and Krim got annexed. According to UN council the Annexion was illegal but the Krim is still under Russia "protection."

Wrong analogy. Windermere is an analogy of Imperial Japan.

[Tenzen12]

Let's say Windermere is analogy of imperial Japan (it certainly look that way), how exactly it makes Krim one wrong? Or are you saying these two are mutually exclusive?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Let's say Windermere is analogy of imperial Japan (it certainly look that way), how exactly it makes Krim one wrong? Or are you saying these two are mutually exclusive?

If you know your history Russia had possession of Crimea since it annexed it in 1783. In 1954 Stalin gave Crimea to Ukraine then it became an autonomous region in 1991 within Ukraine, till Russia annexed it again.

Russia has history there and the population is a mix of Russians and Ukrainians.

What Putin did was punish Ukraine for wanting to get out of Russia's sphere of influence.

Winderemere's Wind Supremacy, in their words "liberating" Brisingr cluster races and driving out Terrans is no different from Imperial Japanese propaganda of Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and Asia for Asians.

Windermere have no prior claims to the region nor history like the Imperial Japan didn't.

Wind Supremacy also implies that the Windermerean race is superior to other Brisingr races like Imperial Japan said that Japanese are superior to other Asians. Indeed given their feudal mentality Roid thinks Heinz is fit to be King of the Protoculture while Gramia has said Terrans aren't fit for the throne of the galaxy, implying Windermereans are.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

If you know your history Russia had possession of Crimea since it annexed it in 1783. In 1954 Stalin gave Crimea to Ukraine then it became an autonomous region in 1991 within Ukraine, till Russia annexed it again.

Russia has history there and the population is a mix of Russians and Ukrainians.

What Putin did was punish Ukraine for wanting to get out of Russia's sphere of influence.

Winderemere's Wind Supremacy, in their words "liberating" Brisingr cluster races and driving out Terrans is no different from Imperial Japanese propaganda of Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere and Asia for Asians.

Windermere have no prior claims to the region nor history like the Imperial Japan didn't.

Wind Supremacy also implies that the Windermerean race is superior to other Brisingr races like Imperial Japan said that Japanese are superior to other Asians. Indeed given their feudal mentality Roid thinks Heinz is fit to be King of the Protoculture while Gramia has said Terrans aren't fit for the throne of the galaxy, implying Windermereans are.

History aside. This doesn't matter on geopolitical stage. Krim belongs to Ukraine and not to Russia. Period.

If you argue the opposite side, then Germany would hat any right to claim part of poland as some part are Prussian Origin. However, Germany does not claim these region any longer. Same goes for the French region of Lothringen and Alsace.

The reason of the Annexion was all about military reasons at the end because with the loss of the Krim Russia would have lost a military strategic region of the Black Sea Marine fleet.

Further I am not sure if the Imperial Army had problem with emigrants, as far as I remember Japan had to expand to claim resoureces but did not have problems with emigrants. Looking at the current European emigrant issues it looks like this theme has been added to Macross Delta.

It may be that a the main course is with the Imperial army, however it does not mean that Kawamori is grabbing current economic or social problems and add this to Macross delta. It just feels like he does so to reach to the audience to speak about current cultiral, econimic and social problems around the globe.

Also I said it remembers me of the current Russian Ukrainian problem. It does not mean that the producers have used it as a general archtype for the series.