Madoka Magica - Episode 07 Discussion / Poll

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It kinda got off point a bit, too. The main comparison was to show that Nanoha had her life screwed with just as much, if not more so, than Sayaka.

So you are saying thats the reason Sayaka and the other magical girl don't deserve to be sympathized with?

I feel that perhaps you taking this whole situation in a more logical fashion is keeping you from seeing how it effects these girls on an emotional level.

[Arkeus]

Or maybe perhaps he is emotionally involved into being right and the character he likes being proven right.

[ThereminVox]

Originally Posted by garbage

on sayaka

she did say "*cannot* hug nor kiss Kamijou with this (zombie)body..."I take as her saying that it can never be a regular relationship, which is her idealism getting in the way. not the literal can't touch>hug>kiss.

Pretty much. The simple masquerade of being a puella magi is the obvious reason it could never work, same as in any superhero story. The horror of being a meat puppet controlled by a phylactery just makes it worse.

In summary: If you're lookin' for love, don't "become Meguca".

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

So you are saying thats the reason Sayaka and the other magical girl don't deserve to be sympathized with?

I never said that. Indeed, I have said on quite a few occasions I understand what they are feeling and going through.

I feel that perhaps you taking this whole situation in more logical fashion is keeping you from seeing how it effects these girls on an emotional level.

And I can understand how you might think so. But despite my logical nature, I am not incapable of evaluating emotional response, nor generating empathy.

Hell, I'm apparently one of the few here who actually cares about the normal people being caught up in this. It seems like a great many others don't care if other people are being eaten by witches, or care that the witches need to be fought.

I find that rather cold, myself.

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Or maybe perhaps he is emotionally involved into being right and the character he likes being proven right.

Or perhaps, that is what you would like to believe. Considering that I am the only one here who has flat out stated what would change my mind, and indeed have shifted my viewpoint based on new data several times.

I am curious, Arkeus, would you be willing to do that? Could you state viewpoints you hold about this show, and plausible situations that would change them? You didn't answer the last few times I asked these questions.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It kinda got off point a bit, too. The main comparison was to show that Nanoha had her life screwed with just as much, if not more so, than Sayaka.

I think you mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread that you always have a choice whether to accept or angst about things. I agree, and I'm going to take this even further than you did, and say that tragedy has nothing to do with people or uncontrollable forces screwing with characters' lives. Tragedy always comes from the characters, never from the plot itself.

One of Nanoha's character traits is that she can deal with pretty much anything that gets thrown her way, which is why I never really feel sympathy for Nanoha. This is why there is no tragedy in Nanoha's life. Tragedy requires a tragic flaw. Nanoha has no tragic flaws. In her world, obstacles and enemies are there for her to overcome them, not for them to persecute her.

Sayaka does have flaws, which is why her narrative reads like an actual tragedy. Whether you think the things that are happening to her are bad or not bad, it's pretty clear she can't deal with them. That's what makes her life a tragedy, and that's what makes all this comparison between Nanoha and Sayaka off-base.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

It kinda got off point a bit, too. The main comparison was to show that Nanoha had her life screwed with just as much, if not more so, than Sayaka.

Except Nanoha's life wasn't screwed with to that length by her supposed allies. She got injured fighting enemies, her adoptive daughter got kidnapped by enemies. Heck, even the betrayal of Graham and his cats wasn't anywhere near that bad, considering they had, what, all of one conversation together? That doesn't really bond a person to a level where it would cause significant personal damage on betrayal.

[karuroso]

Come on Sayaka i.i look at Sanka she's a zombie as well and she so damn hawt, i think maybe if she actually told Kamijou about what she did, there's the chance of him liking and accepting her, i think she was a bit pessimistic about her current status and her relationship, but then again a lot of things happened at once so it's comprehensible as well

[alarmadadna hadi]

Or maybe...
Hitomi was lying
she just said that to make Sayaka confessing to Kamijo

You know, this is exactly my initial understanding of that scene

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

. I agree, and I'm going to take this even further than you did, and say that tragedy has nothing to do with people or uncontrollable forces screwing with characters' lives. Tragedy always comes from the characters, never from the plot itself.

The good old "Cornelian tragedy" vs "Racinian tragedy" debate,it's been going on for centuries.

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I never said that. Indeed, I have said on quite a few occasions I understand what they are feeling and going through.

I'll quote one of the many post in this thread you probably forgot about...

Originally Posted by Kaijo

The show is trying to tell us it is, through Sayaka's angsting over Kamijou. Also through the whole shock factor of last episode. This is falling straight into Cursed with Awesome territory:

"This trope is a major source of Angst Dissonance — if not used carefully, then a character being Cursed With Awesome carries the risk of plummeting straight into Wangst or Deus Angst Machina territory, as nothing is guaranteed to piss an audience off more than a character complaining about having abilities that are, on the face of it, utterly fantastic and that the audience would kill to have. This is especially a risk if a balance between the awesomeness of the powers and the suckiness of the consequences of possessing them is not maintained; if the drawbacks are outweighed by the benefits, then the character just looks whiny."

I'm reminded of that sword chick from Negima, the one with the white wings. "*sniff* Look at me, I'm a monster!"

That's why I'm not buying the "look at how awful and grim dark all of this is!" line of thought yet.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And I can understand how you might think so. But despite my logical nature, I am not incapable of evaluating emotional response, nor generating empathy.

Hell, I'm apparently one of the few here who actually cares about the normal people being caught up in this. It seems like a great many others don't care if other people are being eaten by witches, or care that the witches need to be fought.

I find that rather cold, myself.

Sayaka and the others Magical Girls are still fighting the witches. Hell Sayaka even after the emotional shock and realization she had to endure this episode is still getting out there and fighting on her own terms.

All I'm saying is that you seem have little empathy (If At All) for how bleak the future actually is for Sayaka and the other girls. I understand that they have super powers and virtual immortality now but still my heart goes out to them for the sacrifices they have to make to get these awesome ability. However the way you have worded it seems like your saying they should all be good little soldiers and just roll with the punches.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

I think you mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread that you always have a choice whether to accept or angst about things. I agree, and I'm going to take this even further than you did, and say that tragedy has nothing to do with people or uncontrollable forces screwing with characters' lives. Tragedy always comes from the characters, never from the plot itself.

One of Nanoha's character traits is that she can deal with pretty much anything that gets thrown her way, which is why I never really feel sympathy for Nanoha. This is why there is no tragedy in Nanoha's life. Tragedy requires a tragic flaw. Nanoha has no tragic flaws. In her world, obstacles and enemies are there for her to overcome them, not for them to persecute her.

Sayaka does have flaws, which is why her narrative reads like an actual tragedy. Whether you think the things that are happening to her are bad or not bad, it's pretty clear she can't deal with them. That's what makes her life a tragedy, and that's what makes all this comparison between Nanoha and Sayaka off-base.

I can respect your viewpoint, because you stated it clearly, even if I disagree. But I'd disagree about the tragedy part, because tragedy can happen to anyone, regardless of who they are. A woman who loses her baby has had an uncontrollable tragedy affect her.

Although I do agree that what is happening to Sayaka is a tragedy; I never denied that part. Just that I can see "bad things happening" to both Sayaka and Nanoha. The difference we see, is that Nanoha is an idealistic series, and a strong individual, whereas Madoka is a cynical series and the girls are more bound by their fears and flaws.

Nanoha is one of my favorite characters, because she is someone I can relate to. She's not afraid to face what comes before her. I never really empathized much with the traditional MG, who whined about having her powers, and whined that she couldn't have a normal life. So Sayaka echoing this just rubs me the wrong way... and I LIKE Sayaka as a character.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Except Nanoha's life wasn't screwed with to that length by her supposed allies.

This is true, but it was a screwing nonetheless. Does it matter whether the screwing comes from someone you know, or out of the blue? I mean, Nanoha was told she may not even walk again, let alone fly, and that has to be heartbreaking to hear that, especially when it would mean the end of that which gave you meaning in your life. And then to watch your daughter being tortured, crying out for you, on broadcast TV?

Even if you don't feel it's up to Sayaka levels, it's still a pretty harsh thing. Like I said above, the difference is the idealistic vs. cynical series. Nanoha has the luxury of wining by choosing to fight, whereas Sayaka doesn't.

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

Sayaka and the others Magical Girls are still fighting the witches. Hell Sayaka even after the emotional shock and realization she had to endure this episode is still getting out there and fighting on her own terms.

What you're responding to, was in respect to people who wanted Sayaka to negotiate with Kyoko. And also to those who really hate Kyube and his methods.

All I'm saying is that you seem have little empathy (If At All) for how bleak the future actually is for Sayaka and the other girls. I understand that they have super powers and virtual immortality now but still my heart goes out to them for the sacrifices they have to make to get these awesome ability. However the way you have worded it seems like your saying they should all be good little soldiers and just roll with the punches.

If you were curious, I don't see any contradiction in understanding and empathizing with someone, and yet still feeling that they are complaining over the Cursed with Awesome property. I understand why they are upset, and to a degree, I sympathize. I do feel they need to learn to accept it, however.

Kyoko bears out my reasoning. She got upset, but thought about it, and realized it didn't really matter much in the long run and thus accepted it.

And I'll note that I'm not too against Sayaka... yet. If she's not over it by next episode, then I'll feel more like the trope is in play. She's allowed some recovery time to come to terms with it, but too much overdoes it. I almost thought she had gotten over it, and then they pulled the whole psycho thing, which felt like it came out of nowhere.

[zato_1one]

Hmm... Not sure if it was because I looked at it in the third person perspective which made me think that there was nothing wrong to have a body like that. :/

Re-watching it again, I think that Sayaka felt like that might be because she had been influenced by Kyoko's story. I still think that she was fear from being rejected but another reason might be because she was fear that Kamijou may not accept her if he know the truth (like Kyoko's father). It's fine to get rejected but it's another issue to not being accepted or viewed as humanity anymore. Sayaka didn't have anyone else except Madoka to express her feeling. Madoka is the best friend she can ever get. Madoka know the truth and still accept Sayaka. Madoka might be viewed as useless but despite being powerless she tried her best to help and comfort her friend. The climax of this series is not who/what is Homura/Kyubee or who is the last boss or who will be left standing. It is actually Madoka wish. IMO

Also, I think that Kajiura really deserved to be praised like Shinbo or Gen. Her music was one of the main reason which kept me watching the episode again and again. The witch scene in this episode was actually my most favorite so far. I really love the music and the animation in that scene. Although someone may say that it is Shaft animation.

[scr]

Thanks to this episode, my new OT3 are Madoka x Sayaka x Kyouko _and_ Homura x Madoka x Mami

Spoiler for eps7:

Speaking of undead Magical Girl Warrior (which is only one step away from Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot, which is awesome), i think this has already been done before... oh yeah, Shikabane Hime! And the titular characters do Wangst about their circumstance and their GRIMDARK duty.

It ended with an extremely violent Crowning Moment of Heartwarming: the main character Makina punching the undead crap out of her arch-nemesis Hokuto (who is a Rei Ayanami Expy), shouting histerically "WE'RE ALIVE! BOTH YOU AND I ARE ALIVE!".

Be warned though if you plan to watch it: despite being made by the studio GAINAX, it's considered one of those So Bad It's Good anime.

[Kagayaki]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I can respect your viewpoint, because you stated it clearly, even if I disagree. But I'd disagree about the tragedy part, because tragedy can happen to anyone, regardless of who they are. A woman who loses her baby has had an uncontrollable tragedy affect her.

In real life, and in stories that try to imitiate real life, yes this is a tragedy. But in stories like Madoka and Nanoha, everything happens for a reason (even if that reason is plot convenience or authorial cop-out). So if I was watching Nanoha season 5 and Vivio just suddenly got sick and died for no reason, my first thought would be "Wow this is horrible writing, wtf" rather than "Oh, poor Nanoha."

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Although I do agree that what is happening to Sayaka is a tragedy; I never denied that part. Just that I can see "bad things happening" to both Sayaka and Nanoha. The difference we see, is that Nanoha is an idealistic series, and a strong individual, whereas Madoka is a cynical series and the girls are more bound by their fears and flaws.

Nanoha is one of my favorite characters, because she is someone I can relate to. She's not afraid to face what comes before her. I never really empathized much with the traditional MG, who whined about having her powers, and whined that she couldn't have a normal life. So Sayaka echoing this just rubs me the wrong way... and I LIKE Sayaka as a character.

Yeah, I agree with you. I was just say that "bad things happening" has little to do with the actual amount of tragedy and sadness the viewer feels.

I love Nanoha for the same reasons you do. On the other hand, I don't really like Sayaka, but I feel sorry for her because she is so flawed.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kagayaki

I think you mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread that you always have a choice whether to accept or angst about things. I agree, and I'm going to take this even further than you did, and say that tragedy has nothing to do with people or uncontrollable forces screwing with characters' lives. Tragedy always comes from the characters, never from the plot itself.

One of Nanoha's character traits is that she can deal with pretty much anything that gets thrown her way, which is why I never really feel sympathy for Nanoha. This is why there is no tragedy in Nanoha's life. Tragedy requires a tragic flaw. Nanoha has no tragic flaws. In her world, obstacles and enemies are there for her to overcome them, not for them to persecute her.

Sayaka does have flaws, which is why her narrative reads like an actual tragedy. Whether you think the things that are happening to her are bad or not bad, it's pretty clear she can't deal with them. That's what makes her life a tragedy, and that's what makes all this comparison between Nanoha and Sayaka off-base.

That's a very interesting and well-stated post.


Part of what you wrote here is a big reason why I said that Sayaka is like Nanoha, except that she's less emotionally stable than Nanoha (that's a key difference between the two). You're right that Nanoha simply doesn't break, or at least not for long.

Both Sayaka and Nanoha have a healthy amount of general altruism, but also have heightened specific altruism for a certain special someone.

Both want to protect the innocent, and save lives, I think. Bot for both, they are mostly concerned about the closest people in their lives.

That's my take on the two characters anyway. Character interpretation can be pretty subjective, so I might be wrong.


Now, the other part of your post is basically saying that because Sayaka can't handle what's happening to her, that alone makes it a tragedy. Ok, I do get what you're saying. I do feel a bit sorry for her. But I guess that for myself, and probably Kaijo as well, we'd probably not respond to Sayaka's situation the way that she's responding to it, if either of us were in her shoes. So that makes it hard for me to empathize with her. But yes, I can sympathize somewhat with her.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Nanoha is one of my favorite characters, because she is someone I can relate to. She's not afraid to face what comes before her. I never really empathized much with the traditional MG, who whined about having her powers, and whined that she couldn't have a normal life. So Sayaka echoing this just rubs me the wrong way... and I LIKE Sayaka as a character.

Totally, totally agree with this. Like 110% agree with this. This is probably the main reason for why I like Nanoha so much. Such a breath of fresh air compared to so many of the whiney magical girls that came before her.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

StrikerS was simply fleshing out the world of the Nanoha franchise, and adding a new dimension (and new central characters) to the Nanoha franchise in order to take advantage of its established popularity.

It has nothing to do with trying to make a cynical magical girl show, or trying to account for some supposed lack of maturity.

Actually I think Reckoner has a point. Even though StrikerS is my punching bag, there is no doubt in my mind it tried to bring us to the more serious issues of its universe. Consider:

Spoiler for Nanoha StrikerS:

Although they have all suffered critical damage before, some of the more cynical would believe that none of the damage is truly permanent. There are exceptions such as the Book of Darkness killing Hayate, but overall everyone can get blasted to hell and come back none the worse for wear. We had a max recovery time of maybe 1 episode.

But in StrikerS it's revealed that Nanoha has had a brush with death which almost completely took her out for life. It's also revealed that the excessive use of magic can be harmful. I do believe reading that Nanoha has permanently lost some of her power by overexerting.

Plus everyone got wrecked utterly badly in the cyborg attack.

And also, there were actually evil people higher up., showing that there is corruption in their idealistic force. Sure we had treachery in A's, but even that could have been a well intentioned extremist, but in StrikerS, floating brain dudes were actually evil.

There's also the characters showing more emotional maturity. It's rare to see Nanoha anything but iin cheery or befriending mode.

NGE had its characters frequently dropped into pure carnage (and End of Eva was almost entirely pure carnage). Did that make it hard to take seriously as a deconstruction of super robot anime?

I would argue that Anno's approach there made NGE's deconstruction effort that much more compelling.

For the most part, NGE was pretty sparing on the death and destruction too, so that each death had an impact. It wasn't until near the end that any death occurred.*

*Death of major characters; you know nobody cares when millions die offscreen >.>

Now you could argue that there is always a sense of despair, what being the apocalypse and all, but there is some value in being a bit more reserved. Otherwise you can hit a tragedy sob story train which plagues most Key anime.

It doesn't "look like" that. Is is that. Hitomi very specifically gave her one day.

One day is not plenty of time for a young girl with a big crush to gather up the courage to make a confession.

Hitomi could be more considerate here, imo.

Yea seriously, what kind of warning is that?

Anyhow, about the episode itself, I thought it was pretty good. Sometimes we can live in a world that makes people cynical and people like Kyoko decide to "go fuck it, just run with it, just don't regret " Now I actually like this. Unfortunately Sayaka kinda took this message wrong-- maybe everyone needs to find their own way.

I have no regrets
This was the only path
My entire life was Unlimited Miracle Works

Anyhow, this episode gets brownie points for Homura telling us nobody believed her, covering a plot hole or two, or not. The ending was kinda umm, rushed. I felt like it was missing something but they decided the episode time was running out.

And now Sayaka has Himinizawa Syndrome. Great.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Actually I think Reckoner has a point. Even though StrikerS is my punching bag, there is no doubt in my mind it tried to bring us to the more serious issues of its universe. Consider:

Spoiler for Nanoha StrikerS:

Although they have all suffered critical damage before, some of the more cynical would believe that none of the damage is truly permanent. There are exceptions such as the Book of Darkness killing Hayate, but overall everyone can get blasted to hell and come back none the worse for wear. We had a max recovery time of maybe 1 episode.

But in StrikerS it's revealed that Nanoha has had a brush with death which almost completely took her out for life. It's also revealed that the excessive use of magic can be harmful. I do believe reading that Nanoha has permanently lost some of her power by overexerting.

Plus everyone got wrecked utterly badly in the cyborg attack.

And also, there were actually evil people higher up., showing that there is corruption in their idealistic force. Sure we had treachery in A's, but even that could have been a well intentioned extremist, but in StrikerS, floating brain dudes were actually evil.

There's also the characters showing more emotional maturity. It's rare to see Nanoha anything but iin cheery or befriending mode.

Ok, I'll concede the StrikerS point to you and Reckoner. Yes, StrikerS was intended to be a bit more realistic and a bit darker than the two prequels to it.

For the most part, NGE was pretty sparing on the death and destruction too, so that each death had an impact. It wasn't until near the end that any death occurred.*

Well, with NGE, I was thinking mostly of the sheer utter brutality that Shinji, Asuka, and Rei were put through. IIRC, didn't Shinji have something akin to a severe heart attack? I recall his Eva unit getting nastily pierced through the chest, and he feeling the pain of it. And even in NGE's first episode, we see a horribly injured Rei struggling to get to a Eva unit for battle.

I guess that in dark shows, I like to see a mixture of physical brutality with psychological brutality. This anime has good psychological brutality, to its credit, but I'd like to see more of the physical side of things. Just my taste.

Yea seriously, what kind of warning is that?

This is why I think something might be up with Hitomi. She was also part of that group that was going to commit mass suicide back in Episode 4, a situation that threatened to have Madoka become a magical girl...

Long story short, I wonder if Hitomi is an undercover accomplice for Kyubey?

Anyhow, this episode gets brownie points for Homura telling us nobody believed her, covering a plot hole or two, or not. The ending was kinda umm, rushed. I felt like it was missing something but they decided the episode time was running out.

Good points. Homura's chat with Madoka was the best part of this episode for me. Very revealing, answering key questions about both herself and Kyubey.

And now Sayaka has Himinizawa Syndrome. Great.

lol

[zato_1one]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

If you were curious, I don't see any contradiction in understanding and empathizing with someone, and yet still feeling that they are complaining over the Cursed with Awesome property. I understand why they are upset, and to a degree, I sympathize. I do feel they need to learn to accept it, however.

Kyoko bears out my reasoning. She got upset, but thought about it, and realized it didn't really matter much in the long run and thus accepted it.

And I'll note that I'm not too against Sayaka... yet. If she's not over it by next episode, then I'll feel more like the trope is in play. She's allowed some recovery time to come to terms with it, but too much overdoes it. I almost thought she had gotten over it, and then they pulled the whole psycho thing, which felt like it came out of nowhere.

It's true that she had some recovery time but who knows how much exactly she need? Kyoko might also becoming insane like Sayaka at first before she could eventually overcome her pain. But the main difference between Sayaka and Kyoko situation is that Kyoko didn't have anyone to worry about anymore. They all died (I don't mean that she had better situation than Sayaka). In case that Hitomi really becomes Kamijou's girlfriend, it's very understandable why Sayaka may do stupid things. She has to see her long love interest going out with her close friend everyday because they are in the same school. She might say that she was fine but it is clear that there are many conflicting in her head right now (very normal situation even in real life). To me it's obvious that she need much recovery time than just one or two days. I'd say that it's actually out of her character if she suddenly becomes comfort with her situation like Kyoko in such a short time.

About that Cursed with Awesome property, what first comes to my mind is Crash of the Titans (2010).

Spoiler for conversation:

Io: I was curse to not age and not die.
Perseus: Is that really a curse?

me: ROFL

Well, it really depends on one perspective. Io stated something like it is a curse because she has to see her love die and live alone forever. For some people, it would be splendid like that.

[msg]

kyuubei is SATAN!

that is all

[Sekirei07]

I wonder if this will show if its possible that Witches can be born from corrupted girls. They say Witches are born from Curses right, but the fate of these girls seems like a curse in itself.

More and more I want someone to make a AV of Nanoha doing Starlight Breaker on QB...