Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

For the hot dog, no one helped out because if they did he would lose his job which is why Lelouch stopped Karen. But that is not the case here. I never stated that the system was awesome or perfect. Just that the system is set up to assimilate them into the empire and that's how they do it. I could be wrong but a descendent of an honorary britannian should be granted full citizenship as a true britannian(Being born in that country itself) and you go from there. Hence it's the "transition" phase to removing all aspects of the conquered foe.

I disagree. It's far more likely no one helped because the britainnians couldnt be bothered. Lelouch was the ONLY one who said that if they helped, the 11 couldn't work there anymore. Even Karen *who seems smarter than normal* wanted to help and didn't realise Lelouchs point.

Besides we haven't seen any descendents of honourary britainnians. But we DO know how honourary britainnians are treated. What makes you think that it's any different for their descendents?

You view the honourary britainnian system as similar to the roman empires. But I disagree. Did the roman empire refer to the new roman citizens as monkeys or commonly taunt them and torment them? Did the roman empire espouse a view of inequality?

In reality, I think the britainnian system far more akin to the rigid caste system of india, where once you're born in a caste, ie. britainnian or number, you're either screwed for life or very well off, honourary system or not.

[Missilebuster]

im pretty sure suzaku is the creator's way of making fun of regular shounen

[Varis]

Originally Posted by Missilebuster

im pretty sure suzaku is the creator's way of making fun of regular shounen

lol good one. Sadly a lot of shounen heroes are no better then Suzaku. Always fighting, thinking and acting based on their emotions, only using their brains as a last ditch, desparate effort to avert death.

Lelouch is kinda refreshing. He was wronged in the past and the only way to get justice done in his case was by his own hand. So he planned for it, made use of his additional tools (geass) and is sticking to the plan.

He faces his guilt, sadness and shame and deals with it. That scene with C.C and in the shower was great in ep. 13.

[cf18]

Originally Posted by Missilebuster

im pretty sure suzaku is the creator's way of making fun of regular shounen

Yeah. In many ways the show is quite anti-gundam. Our good boy Suzaku got lucky and become the chosen pilot of a powerful prototype mecha (white, with two eyes!), like most other gundam leads. But he is doing the dirty job of a collaborator of an oppressive empire. He also has no super power other than devil's luck.

Or bad boy Lulu wear a mask to hide his true identity, while using all kind the dirty trick for revenge, very much like Char. And like Char and Zechs, he has a younger sister and is a son of a political leader. But unlike other masked guys, his team actually behave like real people and don't trust the guy always hiding behind a mask.

It looks like the writer start by inverting part of the proven formula and go from there.

[Anh_Minh]

Actually, he does have a superpower, which is to be able to pilot the super-suit itself. From what Lloyd said, he is uniquely suited to the suite, which apparently doesn't work well with just anyone. (Otherwise they'd have found a Britanian pilot. )

[Jewelray]

Originally Posted by Missilebuster

im pretty sure suzaku is the creator's way of making fun of regular shounen

Hmm, I think he's pretty serious. While the show does draw on a lot shounen stereotypes, I wouldn't say it's the Yakitate of mecha or anything.

[anselfir]

Which is to say, we ran out of ideas to put this suzaku kid in a supersuit and a position of relevance in comparison to lulu while also preserving suzaku's background.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Actually, he does have a superpower, which is to be able to pilot the super-suit itself. From what Lloyd said, he is uniquely suited to the suite, which apparently doesn't work well with just anyone. (Otherwise they'd have found a Britanian pilot. )

That depends... I have a theory on this.
I believe Lloyd chose to have an 11 as the pilot of Lancelot because it suits his personality. As a man who treats people like objects, Lloyd would prefer his test-pilot to be as low down on the totem pole as possible.

But that's just a theory of course.

[Viperus]

I think Loyd thought that Lancelot might explode so needed a cheap work force to check out Lancelot's abilities. (It would be a problem if some general would've gotten blown up due to Lancelot's malfunction.) Luckly for Suzaku , he was a very talented pilot with the unique ability to pilot Lancelot.

[Majek]

He wouldn't brag about it all the time if it wasn't the perfect frame for him. So that ^^^ is out of the question.

[bond4154]

I honestly don't think Lloyd cares who's piloting Lancelot. It was just that Suzaku was, at the time, the best possible match when they were destroying Shinjuku. It could be an Eleven, it could be a Britannian. Of course, the producers made sure it was an Eleven so Lloyd's rather out-of-place remarks wouldn't receive a punch in return. XD

[Anh_Minh]

Lloyd seems rather attached to Suzaku, in his way. Not as a person, but as a high quality, hard to find, part for the Lancelot.

[bond4154]

Looking above, I agree the show is rather anti-Gundam. There's always prejudice no matter how good you are in a mobile suit, irregulars are frowned upon, justice is believed to be overrated, and the only way to actually get a promotion is to commit atrocities in the name of our lord. Anti-Gundam indeed. XD

[anselfir]

How is this anti-gundam if they introduced a spineless and weak character solely to sell models? I'm looking at you Lancelotto!

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by anselfir

How is this anti-gundam if they introduced a spineless and weak character solely to sell models? I'm looking at you Lancelotto!

Well, there is a slight problem with that argument...

There has been, so far, no Knighmare model kits from Bandai ANYWHERE.

Plenty of Pizzas, sure. But no model kits as of yet. I am amazed at how people can form conclusions with no evidence. Seriously, 14 episodes on and still no plastic models should tell you plenty about your argument. If they wanted to, they could have covered the toy shelves across Japan with 1/144 scale Lancaster's by episode 3.

Thus, Code Geass IS an anti-Gundam from the perspective of model-pimping... or the lack of it, in this case.

[Nightengale]

I've been thinking for a while...Is there even a moral way to change the Britiannia system from within from Suzaku's position?

Technically, even if he reaches the highest possible military position available for a commoner (( Let's assume he's not being discriminated for 20 reasons )), he will still be below the imperial command and the most he can really change is reduce some casualties inside and outside, and that's assuming people like Cornelia trust him enough to let all military handiwork in his hands...if even remotely possible. If he really wants to change a long-standing monarchy "Might is Right" system...he really only has 2 choices from his standpoint.

1. Destroy the system and replace it.

This method is in no way moral. The only way Suzaku can do it from the inside is if he's a traitor for a larger rebel organization out there, and slowly builds up his ranks to a point where he can blow up the half the imperial court in one blow. Or he can rise to the throne himself...by reaching a point where he is able to gain control and a majority favour over the Britiannian Army that will do everything at his command...and rebel. Impossible for someone uncharismatic like Suzaku, and also immoral.

2. Find someone eligible for the throne who shares his same views and do everything in his power to make sure that person becomes the next in line.

Euphiemia...She's clearly one of the weaker links in succession to the throne. As she is now, she had not proven herself to be better than anyone of her siblings, even Clovis. So, the only way she can be the next in line is if Suzaku goes out to the extent of eliminating, directly or indirectly Euphie's rivals for the throne. How is that moral?

Argubly the only moral way is for him to directly influence the no.1 candidate for the throne and protecting him from any danger that will come to his life. IS THAT EVEN REMOTELY POSSIBLE?

Suzaku needs to get his head checked.

[Skyfall]

Even if Suzaku would become king (by some mirracle that is not going to happen even if universe would crash and burn), he would just be killed by some Britanian noble who supports the "old system", thus ending his crusade of changing Britania from within....

[Varis]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Even if Suzaku would become king (by some mirracle that is not going to happen even if universe would crash and burn), he would just be killed by some Britanian noble who supports the "old system", thus ending his crusade of changing Britania from within....

Even if he DOES change the system and makes all those wonderful changes.... such change rarely outlives the king that enforces it.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Varis

Even if he DOES change the system and makes all those wonderful changes.... such change rarely outlives the king that enforces it.

The same goes fror Lulu. Nothing he can do can really prevent things from getting worse when he passes away or even durign his lifetime. Look at our history, after the big revolutions in the old world soon after there were aways new crises, bigger wars and things got worse. Progress of any kind was payed dearly with blood. SO even Lulu's new better world (if he succeds) might or shiould i say will crumble very fast.

[Anh_Minh]

Meh. The world isn't like it was two centuries ago. Change is possible, even though it takes time and blood.

What is true is that the sword isn't enough: you need the pen, too. But Lulu knows that.