Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Don't take Lelouch's public claims seriously. He isn't really an ally of justice, he's just out to destroy Britania.

Lelouch lies to people. Suzaku lies to himself.

And Lelouch is neither a monster nor a "beast of chaos". He's a deadly enemy of Britania. He doesn't kill for fun, or to prove he's right (Yes, Suzaku, I'm looking at you... ) And as for serving chaos... If Britania's the "Order", then it's quite legitimate. It's like being a jew in a nazi country. I'm so not going to blame one if he tries to overthrow the government...

Correct me if I'm wrong but if your a jew in Nazi Germany don't you get rounded up in concentration camps and killed? I don't recall anything in the books saying that Jews were allowed to join the military as irregulars and gain membership or even be allowed to govern yourself.

If your a number in a Britannian Country you either stay in the ghetto or apply to be an honorary britannian. It falls more on par with the Roman Empire. Other people are conquered and then assimilated into the empire. Natives are trained and allowed to govern the settlements once everything is set. In this case Kirihia is set up by the government as one of the governors of Area 11.

To quote Darlton which probably falls better in with britannia, "My principle is to use anyone whose useful."

And yes Lelouch is a beast of chaos as those other people have stated. The path of carnage. The death of Clovis threw everything into disorder, blood will be spilled, his actions cause many to die on both sides how is that not chaos?(Not that it's wrong or anything to cause chaos, I'm just pointing that out).

[bond4154]

Lelouch has declared war. To me, throwing everything into chaos is a very common military tactic, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. People have the right to overthrow their government should they be dissatisfied with it, by force and in blood, if necessary.

[Skyfall]

Originally Posted by lordyu

The only hypocrite I see is Lelouch. I just watched it and he kill as much of the japanese resistance as the army does. I still have tonnes more sympathy for Suzakau than Lelouch. He is a monster that will kill everything . A beast of Chaos.

Do you even know what hypocrite means ?

Lulu is not a hypocrite in any way imaginable. He could slaughter all the japaneese in sight and that would not make him a hypocrite.

Calling Zero evil and what not for killing, while doing the same thing and actually considering himself to be "just" and "good" is what makes Suzaku a hypocrite. His double standarts are just plain rediculous. Actually, Lulu did Suzaku a fovour by killing all those japaneese, because Suzaku was ordered to kill them anyway. Too bad it didn't come to it though - i would love to see Suzaku having to kill them all by himself - maybe that would get some gears turning in that empty bucket of his.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Correct me if I'm wrong but if your a jew in Nazi Germany don't you get rounded up in concentration camps and killed? I don't recall anything in the books saying that Jews were allowed to join the military as irregulars and gain membership or even be allowed to govern yourself.

I was speaking about Lelouch, actually. My point was, if the government isn't for you, there's no reason for you to be for the government.

If your a number in a Britannian Country you either stay in the ghetto or apply to be an honorary britannian. It falls more on par with the Roman Empire. Other people are conquered and then assimilated into the empire. Natives are trained and allowed to govern the settlements once everything is set. In this case Kirihia is set up by the government as one of the governors of Area 11.

So not buying it. That hot dog vendor getting kicked around for fun without anyone doing a thing about it? That's the truth of the Honorary Britanian System. As for "governing themselves"... What kind of pitiful joke is that? The head slave is still a slave.

And yes Lelouch is a beast of chaos as those other people have stated. The path of carnage. The death of Clovis threw everything into disorder, blood will be spilled, his actions cause many to die on both sides how is that not chaos?

To Lelouch, chaos is a side effect. Not an end in itself.

And as he said himself, those who are allowed to shoot are those with the readiness to be shot. Britania pointed a giant gun at the world. Guys like Clovis can't complain if karma takes a relatively short path.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

So not buying it. That hot dog vendor getting kicked around for fun without anyone doing a thing about it? That's the truth of the Honorary Britanian System. As for "governing themselves"... What kind of pitiful joke is that? The head slave is still a slave.

That was in relation to your "it's like being a jew in nazi germany"

For the hot dog, no one helped out because if they did he would lose his job which is why Lelouch stopped Karen. But that is not the case here. I never stated that the system was awesome or perfect. Just that the system is set up to assimilate them into the empire and that's how they do it. I could be wrong but a descendent of an honorary britannian should be granted full citizenship as a true britannian(Being born in that country itself) and you go from there. Hence it's the "transition" phase to removing all aspects of the conquered foe.

But what part are you not buying it? The system is set up to assimilate them. That's how the romans did it, through citizenship. Natives would be granted secondary status and then you go from there. That's why I stated Britannia is similar to the Roman Empire (Which I might add wasn't exactly all gods and angels either).

And Lelouch doesn't have much of a choice in regards to Britannia. As he stated he and Nannily are on borrowed time, once their found out they'll be made political tools again or even worse. I mean wouldn't you be pissed off if your father just used you like some tool for other purposes? (Such as being a hostage to Japan and then invading it). That and his mother was killed in the family fighting so he wants to find the killer and make them pay.

[Jewelray]

Originally Posted by bond4154

You do realize that the point of this show is to pit together two extremes, in this case, two extremes that you sympathize with (one because he has a motivation for revenge, the other because he's too damn nice for his own good), and then tear them apart with dilemmas? The point being is that they're both supposed to be killers and hypocrites in a war (I honestly wouldn't go as far as to call them as such, though; soldiers in war do not truly count as "killers", and "hypocrite" is too strong a word").

I agree, right now we aren't supposed to agree with Suzaku or Lelouch. But eventually one of them, or both of them, will figure something out and we'll be left with the wonderfully thought provoking message "extremes and war are bad."

Lelouch lies to people. Suzaku lies to himself.

I like this. I think it sums up pretty nicely what's wrong with both of them.

[coldwarm]

Let me rant my opinion here

First off I want to say, everyone has discrimination. Now, some people are extreme (using actions that hurts others), while others are more civilized. We dont need to worry about the civilized people, who has self control, however, the problem is with the extreme people. How do we control them, without damaging their freedom? Obviously, we can implement some laws, or relocate those extreme people. Now let's look at the means of both Lulouch and Suzaku

Lulouch: Obviously to win against Brittainia is no small task, however, it is always probable and possible. This is why throughout history empire and dynasty changes. With the right time, right man, right strategies, and some luck, it is possible to beat Brittainia. With enough Lulu's, eventually Britainia will be changed.

Susaku: I understand the changing from within principle. But do you truly believe that the emperor and the royal family (except euphemia) is as rationale as people on this board? or even care about someone other than themselves or people close to them? I seriously doubt that. Let me ask you, what benefit can the emperor get by giving Susaku the political power? The answer is nothing. Since suzaku is so willing to work for him, why on earth should he even give him more political power for the heck of it. unless of course susaku oppose him or is a threat to him, he will not be rewarded.

Now, we need to change the top in order to change the law, to change the discrimination and change the situations in area 11. Do we do so by replacing the top? or do so by being a subject of the top? (trust me, being a subject will never replace the top)

When answering this question, please dont think the emperor as yourself (I know that you are all good and stuff) but think of the emperor as someone who wont act unless there is a gain.

Lastly I want to say, people are different, unless you have a camera in their brain, you dont know what they think so dont assume you know emperor.

[Missilebuster]

I think that they should find a way around killing numerous innocents just to get the corrupt out of power, but Suzaku's method is too slow and uneffective. They should start assassinating those who are corrupt and suppresive towards the numbers (like how zero did in the prince). That would be morally acceptable. Lelouche is definately going to have his work cut out for him if he wants to save his relationship with Shirly as well - even though her father was working for an evil government. She should see that this was the only way lelouch could think of to undo a greater evil, and that the death of innocent people were not intended but permitted (look up the double effect theory for the details on how that can be morally alright). Then of course lelouch and shirly should go off make some babies after lelouch corrects the britannian government and makes suzaku king (he may be foolish but he tries to be just even though he just killed some helpless japanese liberation people).

[coldwarm]

Well assassination is a good idea, but dont replace the emperor with someone who is as cruel or even more cruel than he is. In order to reduce chaos, the next in line must be very capable, who can unite the country and eliminate the chaos after the emperor's death.

[Santa Claus]

Originally posted by Missilebuster

They should start assassinating those who are corrupt and suppresive towards the numbers (like how zero did in the prince). That would be morally acceptable.

I'm not totally convinced that would be "morally" acceptable. It'd probably sit well with the Numbers, not so much for the Britannians. Remove from power is more moral, IMO (admittedly more difficult, however.)

...even though her father was working for an evil government. She should see that this was the only way lelouch could think of to undo a greater evil, and that the death of innocent people were not intended but permitted (look up the double effect theory for the details on how that can be morally alright).

That would be fine for an emotionless robot, but since she's human, she's probably not going to see things that way. And I'm not sure the double effect theory holds in this case, because he wants to totally decimate a system that has been in place for who knows how long. This act is neither good nor morally neutral to Britannians (probably pretty good for Numbers, maybe.)

Maybe I'm wrong though: I've only ever had one philosophy class.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by coldwarm

Well assassination is a good idea, but dont replace the emperor with someone who is as cruel or even more cruel than he is. In order to reduce chaos, the next in line must be very capable, who can unite the country and eliminate the chaos after the emperor's death.

yeah his name is Lelouch vie Britannia, the 17th successor to the throne. He has every legitimate reason to do so.

[Eskay]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Calling Zero evil and what not for killing, while doing the same thing and actually considering himself to be "just" and "good" is what makes Suzaku a hypocrite. His double standarts are just plain rediculous. Actually, Lulu did Suzaku a fovour by killing all those japaneese, because Suzaku was ordered to kill them anyway. Too bad it didn't come to it though - i would love to see Suzaku having to kill them all by himself - maybe that would get some gears turning in that empty bucket of his.

Couldnt agree more, i was really looking foward to suzaku having to face reality within the britianian army when they gave him the order to slaughter the JLF not once, not twice, but three times.

[anselfir]

Suzaku is really hilarious. His serious character flaw is, not a hypocrite, but him being an utter blind idiot who can only say "oh but you gotta do it with the right method" without even considering his own methods. The guy is all emotional when he sees anyone but the organization he explicitly joined kill people, what about the outrage against the military when it kills rebels, civilians, did he think those he killed are not without family and attachments? What a fucktard. G_D Is the military/de facto state that much of a superior moral structure that your overwhelming desire for justice doesn't even allow you to show the slight objection against anyone but the small fries in your organization? Why not tell the pink princess that what the empire doing is utter shit, that's a better means than killing people while blindly obeying anything fed into your little cage. Does the guy even have a method? He just sits around and get angsty at the wrong moments.

His weak actions really makes the "ends vs means" debate a joke in this show, get a fucking spine and a pair of new glasses, kid, cause you are just a bumbling idiot who sells toys right now.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

That was in relation to your "it's like being a jew in nazi germany"

Well, the Numbered Areas are more like colonies. As in, White Man's Burden and all that bullshit, only even worse.

For the hot dog, no one helped out because if they did he would lose his job which is why Lelouch stopped Karen.

And that's the point. Nothing good could have come of stopping those jerks. They wouldn't have been punished, either. That's the proof that the system is flawed, big time. That "Honorary Britanians" are afforded less legal protection, let alone actual rights, than Britanian pets. (OK, I don't actually know the animal welfare laws in Britania. But still.)

But that is not the case here. I never stated that the system was awesome or perfect. Just that the system is set up to assimilate them into the empire and that's how they do it.

No, the system is set up to pacify the conquered people and get a cheap workforce without going to all the trouble of treating them like human beings.

I could be wrong but a descendent of an honorary britannian should be granted full citizenship as a true britannian(Being born in that country itself) and you go from there. Hence it's the "transition" phase to removing all aspects of the conquered foe.

Unlikely. Even after a generation, a Japanese will still look Japanese, not British.

But what part are you not buying it? The system is set up to assimilate them. That's how the romans did it, through citizenship. Natives would be granted secondary status and then you go from there. That's why I stated Britannia is similar to the Roman Empire (Which I might add wasn't exactly all gods and angels either).

I don't buy that the assimilation thing will work any better than it did with the more recent colonies, and I don't buy that the Numbers "rule themselves" in any significant way.

And Lelouch doesn't have much of a choice in regards to Britannia. As he stated he and Nannily are on borrowed time, once their found out they'll be made political tools again or even worse. I mean wouldn't you be pissed off if your father just used you like some tool for other purposes? (Such as being a hostage to Japan and then invading it). That and his mother was killed in the family fighting so he wants to find the killer and make them pay.

Again, that was my point. Unlike Suzaku, I can't blame Lelouch for going to war with Britania.

[bond4154]

The Britannian system views the Japanese as a workforce and a source of profit. You're talking about a Great Britain that had attained monarchy even through the Industrial Revolution, and is greatly expanding. Let me put it this way: When Great Britain invaded China during the nineteenth century, they certainly did a great job of using the Chinese as a huge workforce. Now, the Britannians are doing the same thing to at least a third of the world. I'm not surprised.

Spoiler for Episode 12:

Even at Cornelia's staff meeting, when the administration of Area 11 defended the SAC, they did so because the Britannian policy of letting Number leaders govern the Numbers allowed Britannia to reap more profits, not because of the general welfare. First on their minds was production and tax collection, as you could obviously see.

I don't feel like talking about either Lelouch or Suzaku at the moment. All I'm saying is that I can tolerate both, and I view neither as truly evil or hypocritical.

[Trax]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Lelouch lies to people. Suzaku lies to himself.

That sums it up nicely. Both are hypocrites, but in different ways. Lelouch tries to uphold a false image of justice to get more support while using underhanded tactics and deceiving others in the rebellion, and Suzaku criticizes the rebellion while being part of a ruthless army that will expect him to bloody his hands aswell.

Lelouch is turning into an evil bastard that will use any tactics that are necessary to achieve his goal, but he knows what he is doing and will have to carry that weight on his conscience. Suzaku however, while hesitant to soil his hands, does not seem to realize or acknowledge what atrocities the Brittanian army, that he is now a part of, is committing; he's either naive, stupid, wearing blinders, or a combination of these. He also expects everyone to play nice nice and hold hands with the invaders, in the hopes that they will start playing nice nice aswell.

[D a m i e n]

Coming up late. only have browse the 3~4 pages so i m only comenting about those pages especially the expectation at the end

This anime is pleasing it lacks the usual goodymarshmallowbullshit we see so often and that have drove me away from anime. unfortunately the ending will be a shitty ending aka LL turning into a good guy and usual crap we have when people realise they have been wrong (sacrifice, exil, mourning pick wich ever you want).
it really reminds me of May Hime. anime starts kinda nice then turns to a very dark and sinister ambiance..... with last episode just screwing everything.

[Owaranai Destiny]

With the latest episode, I utterly convinced that Suzaku and Lelouch will actually be going on a similar path to their goals.

Looking at the way Suzaku had accepted the fact that he was to participate in a massacre of a practically defenseless fleeing JLF, all of the members his own fellow countrymen. Professional soldier or not, it's something he has to face up to, and as long as insurgency never dies out, he's going to be walking on a path of carnage as much as Lelouch is, save for the fact that Lelouch's path is more obvious and in some ways, radical.

The fact that one of the knights actually considered Suzaku in to be part of the operation because they were 'short-handed' and 'even though he's a Number, and the son of Japan's former prime minister at that' doesn't show them making full use of the talent and skill Suzaku has at piloting; he was simply a backup, so desperate were they to actually use Numbers in a mission like this. On one hand, it shows the bleak cons of Suzaku's goal: That despite all that he has done, he was only considered to be able to partake in the operation as ground support.

It could also imply that what the OoBK had been doing was actually succeeding: Depleting the Britannian troops to the point where a Number had to be roped in. At least there are results on the part of Lelouch and co., even though the evil bastard tricked even his own subordinates about the explosion of JLF's ship. Another terrible display of 'sacrificing people for the greater cause', which showed little remorse on his side even after the Shirley episode he was put through.

[Viperus]

JLF might've blown themselves up anyway , since Britania didnt take prisoners.

[etothex]

Originally Posted by Owaranai Destiny

At least there are results on the part of Lelouch and co., even though the evil bastard tricked even his own subordinates about the explosion of JLF's ship. Another terrible display of 'sacrificing people for the greater cause', which showed little remorse on his side even after the Shirley episode he was put through.

Actually I kinda thought he did it more for himself, to firm up his resolve to walk the path of carnage. Seemed to be a lot of tactics he could have used, seeing as how they were the ambushers. Remember in episode 4, he said he doesn't need a path he can turn back from. Seems like he was reestablishing that sentiment, albeit in a more evil way than anything he's ever done.