Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Triple_R]

This is probably simplifying things some, but perhaps this is how Kawamori symbolically views it...

Windermere = Imperial Japan/WWII Japan
NUNs = United Nations/United States
Chaos = New modern Japan.

It's pretty clear that Kawamori doesn't like the UN/US given how NUNs is presented in Delta. To be fair, Kawamori is not alone here, as I also found Kuromukuro to be pretty critical of the United Nations.

Kawamori probably realizes that WWII-era Japan did some terrible things, so Windermere likewise has to do some terrible things. Perhaps Kawamori's challenge to himself was to sort of forgive WWII-era Japan by making its stand-in Windermere seem somewhat sympathetic in spite of all the terrible things it did.

That being said, chaos is meant to represent the way forward. Chaos' warm family/friendship feel, its relative unease at killing the enemy, its modern upbeat pop music, its youthful straightforward hope/vigor, its desire for peace, its somber acceptance of a dark past but still with hope for a bright tomorrow... Perhaps that's what Kawamori would like to see for modern Japan itself.

Given that, we're probably supposed to think that Windermere will change in the future. Slowly... very slowly, stubbornly slowly... but still changing eventually. Changing to be more like chaos, and be more like Freyja Wion.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is probably simplifying things some, but perhaps this is how Kawamori symbolically views it...

Windermere = Imperial Japan/WWII Japan
NUNs = United Nations/United States
Chaos = New modern Japan.

It's pretty clear that Kawamori doesn't like the UN/US given how NUNs is presented in Delta. To be fair, Kawamori is not alone here, as I also found Kuromukuro to be pretty critical of the United Nations.

Kawamori probably realizes that WWII-era Japan did some terrible things, so Windermere likewise has to do some terrible things. Perhaps Kawamori's challenge to himself was to sort of forgive WWII-era Japan by making its stand-in Windermere seem somewhat sympathetic in spite of all the terrible things it did.

That being said, chaos is meant to represent the way forward. Chaos' warm family/friendship feel, its relative unease at killing the enemy, its modern upbeat pop music, its youthful straightforward hope/vigor, its desire for peace, its somber acceptance of a dark past but still with hope for a bright tomorrow... Perhaps that's what Kawamori would like to see for modern Japan itself.

Given that, we're probably supposed to think that Windermere will change in the future. Slowly... very slowly, stubbornly slowly... but still changing eventually. Changing to be more like chaos, and be more like Freyja Wion.

Kawamori doesn't hate the US he actually went there to research for Macross Plus.

I do wonder how much is Kawamori involved and how much Kenji Yasuda (director) and Toshizo Nemoto (writer) is. Remember some of his ideas were shot down. Like Mirage being an ace.

Kawamori is also busy with another project.

Mind you it isn't as bad with Gundam Age where the antagonist side's war crimes are ignored.

As said the war isn't over. Peace negotiation for Heinz was only on the condition Windermere was in a position of strength. With the loss of the Protoculture ruins and his own impending death Windermere can be defeated conventionally.

At best it would be a Cold War while the Brisingr Alliance arms themselves for the next conflict.

Windermere has no means to replenish their fleet or Sv units. The NUN and Alliance won't let Windermere have the Sigur Valens as it is too dangerous.

The only reason why ruin mind control worked was people being infected by Fold Bacteria.

Fold Jamming does work however with Keith dead and Mikumo free the Wind Singer's song won't work on an expeditionary fleet. Super Fold drives can bypass Windermere's Fold Faults.

After tasting their own medicine I can see a revolt against Heinz and the Aerial Knights on their own planet. It is the royalty's selfishness that led to two devastating wars.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

This is probably simplifying things some, but perhaps this is how Kawamori symbolically views it...

Windermere = Imperial Japan/WWII Japan
NUNs = United Nations/United States
Chaos = New modern Japan.

It's pretty clear that Kawamori doesn't like the UN/US given how NUNs is presented in Delta. To be fair, Kawamori is not alone here, as I also found Kuromukuro to be pretty critical of the United Nations.

Kawamori probably realizes that WWII-era Japan did some terrible things, so Windermere likewise has to do some terrible things. Perhaps Kawamori's challenge to himself was to sort of forgive WWII-era Japan by making its stand-in Windermere seem somewhat sympathetic in spite of all the terrible things it did.

That being said, chaos is meant to represent the way forward. Chaos' warm family/friendship feel, its relative unease at killing the enemy, its modern upbeat pop music, its youthful straightforward hope/vigor, its desire for peace, its somber acceptance of a dark past but still with hope for a bright tomorrow... Perhaps that's what Kawamori would like to see for modern Japan itself.

Given that, we're probably supposed to think that Windermere will change in the future. Slowly... very slowly, stubbornly slowly... but still changing eventually. Changing to be more like chaos, and be more like Freyja Wion.

I don't think that Chaos represent modern Japan. It's how humans in general should be living.
Rather than fighting each other, it's important to live together, regardless of Heritage (Freyja (Windermere), Mirage (Half-Zentradi/Human), Humans and Ernest (Zentradi) for example). Also the relationship of Hayate and Freyja is something to build something up to for the future. I am sure that their relationship will be used as a symbol of peace in future.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I don't think that Chaos represent modern Japan. It's how humans in general should be living.
Rather than fighting each other,

C'mon, they are still fighting, remember? To protect others, okay, but still... We're a ways away from pacifism, I'm afraid. It's a good concept and I'm all for it, don't get me wrong (I hate guns and don't own nor would own one, even if it wasn't such a pain in the ass, where I live, legally) but... I don't believe we're even close to that point, as a species, yet. Maybe in a million years, who knows?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I guess the main problem is that it starts in the middle of the story rather than at the beginning (7 years ago). If they put a side story here, maybe this will help to understand what was right and what was wrong.

The current war itself was wrong but is is already wrong because it has never been shown what caused this war. At the end you can say it was humans fear and greed what caused all this.

It's a dramatization. Characters of one side can go from super good or allies to super bad guys depending of the circumstances the show was aired, the movie was made, the book was published. Look at the Taliban made heroic heroes in Rambo III. Do you think they'll have the same treatment in American flicks after 9/11? Kawamori is fully aware it's all fiction within fiction and explains it in those terms (occasionally making 'remakes' of classics in his own shows just to show how it's all fiction).

Considering Delta super heavy anti-colonialism message, it isn't a surprise the NUNS higher ups are portrayed as unredeemable villains? Question under what circumstances the galaxy produced such NUNS-bashing show. Not too long ago, there was a game too, anniversary project which was important, where the villain and antagonist was a NUNS high commander of Earth too. So yeah, it's not something that appeared out nowhere in Delta. I'm interested to see where Kawamori is taking this. I doubt it's just exclusive to Windermere and that cluster.

[HirouKeimou]

People sometimes overreact in general at fictional stories because of their similarity to real life events. People misunderstand how this is meant for entertainment firstly and moral or ambiguous messages secondly.

If you're viewing media you believe is negatively affecting you or others around you, nowadays you as a person have a choice of turning it off or choosing something else to spend time on because there is much more choice now. In the old days, you didn't have much choice on programs, shows, books, or media in general because they were limited. And, it's been a proven fact that fiction as a whole does not influence negative behavior or violence from those who view it. The fact people believe this promotes war or violence is kind of silly, really; all it's doing is retelling a fictional version of a prior war in a more enjoyable format. The only downside is inability for creativity, which is a dying art at this point because so much is copyrighted.

I'll bite at a series like Delta which is a little more creative on how you go from Point A to Point B versus a war documentary. It's more enjoyable than 60 plus minutes of someone explaining a war and showing still images or minor video from it like it'll be more enjoyable. Personally, I vote for Delta above those documentaries; it's more enjoyable, so I can immerse myself in it rather than fall asleep midway.

On the subject of this episode, though; I don't mind it's ending so much? I mean, it's open-ended for if Windermere will go through their peace treaty all right; however, it's closed enough so our main heroes reclaimed their home and our love triangle is closed off. I'm not dissatisfied on those things.

Of course, on the subject of unresolved wars, I'm kind of waiting for a confirm if Galaxy is fully annihilated from Frontier (because TV implied no and movies implied a little bit of yes because main computer is destroyed). Funny how Delta focuses on the Vajra (confirmed non-enemy in Frontier) and nothing on Galaxy... which, I'm beginning to wonder if Galaxy is infiltrating NUNS, if that could be something we learn about down the road... (on the subject of corruption, I mean).

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

C'mon, they are still fighting, remember? To protect others, okay, but still... We're a ways away from pacifism, I'm afraid. It's a good concept and I'm all for it, don't get me wrong (I hate guns and don't own nor would own one, even if it wasn't such a pain in the ass, where I live, legally) but... I don't believe we're even close to that point, as a species, yet. Maybe in a million years, who knows?

The fight on Ragnar has ended with the withdrawal of Windermere from Ragna. It's a ceasefire and what comes after are speculations. When Heinz said to Bogue to deal with NUN later to convince him to fight for his nation against roid, he wasn't aware that chaos already holds the important information to deal with NUN on a diplomatic base. One thing I can say his words perfectly suit to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." It can be a lie by Heinz as well but it was important to convince the Aerial Knights to fight for windermere and not for roid.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The fight on Ragnar has ended with the withdrawal of Windermere from Ragna. It's a ceasefire and what comes after are speculations. When Heinz said to Bogue to deal with NUN later to convince him to fight for his nation against roid, he wasn't aware that chaos already holds the important information to deal with NUN on a diplomatic base. One thing I can say his words perfectly suit to "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." It can be a lie by Heinz as well but it was important to convince the Aerial Knights to fight for windermere and not for roid.

And what does that have to do with anything?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

And what does that have to do with anything?

It means it took the correct wordings to convince that Roid is the bad guy and not Walküre, delta or chaos.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

It means it took the correct wordings to convince that Roid is the bad guy and not Walküre, delta or chaos.

I still have no idea what you mean, honestly. It may be a language barrier thing, or something.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I still have no idea what you mean, honestly. It may be a language barrier thing, or something.

I believe Hentai is saying is their common enemy in this episode is Roid (meaning Chaos and Windermere) and is implying a "cease fire" because of their collaboration to protect the Galaxy from Roid's plans.

That's how I perceived their posts. Don't know if it's how it's intended to sound, though.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I believe Hentai is saying is their common enemy in this episode is Roid (meaning Chaos and Windermere) and is implying a "cease fire" because of their collaboration to protect the Galaxy from Roid's plans.

That's how I perceived their posts. Don't know if it's how it's intended to sound, though.

Okay. Now how does that relate to my post, exactly?
I was talking about Chaos as a whole, as in "they are still fighting to protect others", some would actually say that they are not true pacifists - some definitions of pacifism state that you should not use violence - and you, definitely, should not kill. I was not talking about what they were doing "at the moment". I mean...
Like I said, it could be lost in translation, I guess.

Anyway, this discussion is derailing... again. Ta-da.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Okay. Now how does that relate to my post, exactly?

Oh no; I'm not joining your debate (enough of the political discussion IMO).

I only skimmed their post and realized where both of you were misunderstanding each other. I don't know if there is a language barrier or if it's a grammar issue; depends on how you learn sentence structure, I guess...

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Thess

It's a dramatization. Characters of one side can go from super good or allies to super bad guys depending of the circumstances the show was aired, the movie was made, the book was published. Look at the Taliban made heroic heroes in Rambo III. Do you think they'll have the same treatment in American flicks after 9/11? Kawamori is fully aware it's all fiction within fiction and explains it in those terms (occasionally making 'remakes' of classics in his own shows just to show how it's all fiction).

Considering Delta super heavy anti-colonialism message, it isn't a surprise the NUNS higher ups are portrayed as unredeemable villains? Question under what circumstances the galaxy produced such NUNS-bashing show. Not too long ago, there was a game too, anniversary project which was important, where the villain and antagonist was a NUNS high commander of Earth too. So yeah, it's not something that appeared out nowhere in Delta. I'm interested to see where Kawamori is taking this. I doubt it's just exclusive to Windermere and that cluster.

Actually if anything to me the message wasn't about anti-colonialism. Thing is the windmereans were very very xenophobic. Their culture wasn't being lost it was just changing due to to influence of outside forces. It was being added to a melting pot. Culture isn't a stagnant thing it changes as the people do, it's not uncommon for there to be people who are afraid of that change, lest we forget that there are actual hate groups that evolved from the fear of change. Thing is though it seems as though the Windmereans that were too proud and didn't want to accept the change it's funny the Windmereans reminded me more of a hate group than the NUNS ever did.

It's just like how it was pointed out earlier in the thread how most of their grievances against NUNS weren't legitimate. NUNS had a reasonable reason to send their men away, the had a good reason to take over their ruins, the only thing that the Windmereans have as a legitimate complaint against the NUNS was the fact that they set off a nuke. Beyond that however they really don't have any legitimate grievance against NUNS. However, the legitimacy of that grievance was lost due to their actions. They still used mind control on the entire galaxy which we can see from the first few episodes did lead to loss of life amongst civilians. It's not just military personnel that was affected by Var, ordinary civilians were as well and this lead to people dying. However, Windmere never cared until they got a taste of their own medicine. The Windmereans may think of themselves as victims but they're really not.

If this truly was anti-colonialism then Windmere wouldn't have been put in the position it was at the end. Losing all of it's power in negotiating. Any peace talks they engage in from now on won't be on equal grounds.

Communication is key but it only works when BOTH sides are willing to communicate.

[magnuskn]

Good analysis, wisteria.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

If this truly was anti-colonialism then Windmere wouldn't have been put in the position it was at the end. Losing all of it's power in negotiating. Any peace talks they engage in from now on won't be on equal grounds.

Communication is key but it only works when BOTH sides are willing to communicate.

I would not tend to say that anti colonialism is the theme but I would not doubt it''s not. If we look at Australia or the EU, we have an issue with mass escape due to war, poverty etc.

I see in the n delta another theme which has not been spoken out or pardoned between two Nations. It's about the necessity of dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and on the other side Pearl Harbor.

And we do not know what or how peace talks will be. what we know is that is was not right and NUN military ops was illegal when they dropped the bomb. Further windermere Nation was accused it was their fault.

Your end words are right. Communication is key. But this all went wrong 7 years ago and not when delta anime series started.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I would not tend to say that anti colonialism is the theme but I would not doubt it''s not. If we look at Australia or the EU, we have an issue with mass escape due to war, poverty etc.

I see in the n delta another theme which has not been spoken out or pardoned between two Nations. It's about the necessity of dropping nuclear weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and on the other side Pearl Harbor.

And we do not know what or how peace talks will be. what we know is that is was not right and NUN military ops was illegal when they dropped the bomb. Further windermere Nation was accused it was their fault.

Your end words are right. Communication is key. But this all went wrong 7 years ago and not when delta anime series started.

The real question now becomes, would people be willing to listen to Windermere's side? Remember despite the fact that those other planets have nothing to do with happened they were still attacked by Windmere. It'd be like attacking a neutral country and then expecting them to still take your side after everything is said and done. The chances of that happening are slim since in their quest for "justice" they wronged more people than NUNS did. They became a threat to the Galaxy itself not just NUNS. It wasn't just military targets being effected by their ploy but ordinary, they caused more damage to the Galaxy than the bomb did on Windmere.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The real question now becomes, would people be willing to listen to Windermere's side?

I know I wouldn't.

[charles883]

Unless Chaos spread hard evidence of NUNS bombing on Windermere through NUNS world. Then NUNS forced to admit as keep denying it will cause civil wars

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by charles883

Unless Chaos spread hard evidence of NUNS bombing on Windermere through NUNS world. Then NUNS forced to admit as keep denying it will cause civil wars

Thing is Windermere is no position to have another civil war, and with what they've done even if Chaos does let the other planets know that the the whole bombing was true, it still won't help their case because Windermere still attacked neutral planets with the intention of conquering them via taking away their free will. Even if they do acknowledge that NUNS did was wrong, they'll still be expecting Windermere to pay for their actions against the galaxy so Windermere won't be getting anything from anyone beyond form of punishment.