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Originally Posted by Klashikari
I guess I failed to convey the proper analogy.
To put it in a bullet point: let's assume, A and B. A earns 5000, B earns 8000. B isn't really satisfied, but A believe it is B's situation is "nice". Does this mean that B has to follow the same conclusion?
Of course, the analogy is faulty because of the lack of circumstances. What I was trying to point is that you simply cannot conclude "someone shouldn't complain if someone else is fine with the same situation, or something worse".
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As many have said to me over this series, we do make judgments based on our own situations and experiences. I can very well state that B shouldn't complain, because they have it decently good. B complaining comes across to me like a spoiled rich kid. Sure, we'd all like more, but beyond a certain standard of living, it becomes poor form to complain about not having something that many other people would want.
[quote]A given situation can only be gauged by that person alone, when it is about emotional response.[quote]
Then you are telling me we can never cast judgment someone's emotional response to a situation? say, a racist with a gun is suddenly dropped into a room of black people, and he panicks and shoots a bunch of them. So the given situation can only be judged by that person alone, about his emotional response?
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Kyoko can live with that, but is it really something she would have accepted readily if Kyuubey was honest from the get go? As far it is shown in Episode 6, she wasn't pleased by this prospect a single bit.
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Not pleased that she wasn't told. After thinking about it, she was fine with it. So I don't know about you, but given that, I would be forced to conclude she would have been fine with it if told up front.
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So I will use the very same point you are always claiming: do you have proof that Kyoko is "fine living like that"? Can you attest that she isn't convincing herself that it is "fine"? Can you really prove that she wasn't pulling a facade?
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Can I prove a negative? No, I can't, and I think you'd know that no one can. All I can point to is that she herself said she was fine with it. Until I'm told or shown otherwise, I have to believe she is.
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Jab aside, I personally don't think the answer of that is important. The main point is that I just can't see an actual objective and practical way to -compare- very personal situations between different individuals, even if the said situations are exactly the same.
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Well, we'll have to disagree, then. Society itself seeks to judge situations and compare them when it creates enforced morals in the form of laws. The state of mind is very much a legal concept(at least in the US), so society would disagree with you that someone's emotional mindset cannot be judged.
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Then let's take another "subtle" example: Homura explained that no one (as, other MG) would believe her. I personally see it as a denial, which means that should reality strike them hard, they will have as much difficulty as Sayaka to accept that.
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Not believing could be denial, but also could be just not believing her. Although I find this quite interesting, because she could say, "Well, ask Kyube if you don't believe me. Then decide for yourself based on what he says." Given that Kyube hasn't outright lied or refused to answer (and indeed, has answered every question asked of him), I can't see what the issue is. She still could have told them, and insisted they ask Kyube himself.
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Also, considering how Homura was behaving with Madoka, I don't think you can call that "accepted it". Feel free to disagree, but to me, Homura basically forsake herself and just proceed to her objective, it doesn't mean she can live with it.
In fact, despite being the most cynical, she herself contemplates the statement that she isn't human... and that's from your level headed character.
Except there is a vast difference: Sayaka's status is impossible to reverse and was inflicted to her while she didn't ask for it. Of course, you probably gonna use example such like a handicapped person born as they are, but they -lived- like that from the start. Whereas Sayaka was perfectly normal and got the short end of a stick which wasn't what she was asking for.
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Choosing to live with it is one form of acceptance. I should note that I don't consider Homura level-headed, as I've blatantly questioned her methods compared with her stated goals.
One point of note: we don't technically know if it is irreversible. We only know that Sayaka has entered into a contract that cannot be broken. Considering we have head of no limits on wishes, it would seem possible to simply wish Sayaka back to normal. Of course, that would take someone else to take up the MG mantle, but statistically speaking, there has to be
someone that would take the job despite knowing all about it.
Of course, our beloved heroines probably won't ever get around to having this thought. They haven't even considered whether they could have brought Mami back to life.
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In the end, she is torn by the conflict generated that her goal and means were upside down. She didn't save Kyousuke in order to be a MG, she turned into a MG to save Kyousuke for her own sake. She thought she was doing the former, but she is actually doing the latter, and it is striking her badly as she realize she isn't righteous as she thought to act.
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I see the emphasis placed on this, and it doesn't sit right with me. It's almost like you're stating that this is her only goal, and it is somehow bad. Wanting to heal Kamijou and wanting to protect the people of the town aren't mutually exclusive goals. And we are all selfish, so trying to rag on her about this, reeks of hypocrisy. And, damn, she feels guilt about the tiniest of things! So personally, I cut her slack. She didn't wish for Kamijou to love her, or to replace his love of the violin with a love for her; she simply wished his hand to heal. Of course she loves him and wants him, but she's well aware of using underhanded means to get that, and is very much afraid of crossing that potential line.
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The trope itself isn't the issue, it is how it is used that can become a liability. Expecting everything to turn exactly like a trope is foolish to be frank, and likewise, expecting a trope not working because all conditions aren't filled isn't any good either. In the end, I would rather gauge by the situation itself, than just comparing with a stoic example and deliberately saying "not the same / same" just because of arbitrarely criteria made by whoever created the trope.
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You can't get away from tropes, no matter how hard you try. They are either used, subverted, or averted. But in all cases, all stories are made up of tropes. As the tropes page says,
this is not a bad thing. Much like story elements of "boy meets girl" everything has been done before. What matters is the execution, as long as the writer is aware of potential issues and addresses them. Cursed by Awesome isn't necessarily a bad thing, depending on how it is used. If the writer wants to show that a character is whiny, then it is one possible avenue.
But saying, "I don't prefer to use tropes" is a bit like saying, "I don't plan to use a plot or characters or a setting." You pretty much can't write a story without them.
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And I don't think "accept it" is always the smarter choice, because it would mean that you would be "okay" that the said source of the issue was fine. Accepting the situation may be synonym of "moving on" at times, but it is also synonym of "turning a blind eye to it".
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Eh, those aren't the same things, at least in this context. Accepting it means you are aware of it, but you don't let it get you down. Turning a blind eye to it means you try to ignore it and not think about it. It is quite possible to be aware of who you are, without turning a blind eye to it.
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I think there are enough details already explained before: that Hitomi was shown interested in Episode 2
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Of all those, this is the only remotely close one, but even then, it was one throwaway line that didn't indicate she was interested in him at all. If Gen was trying to use this to set up as a foreshadow, he didn't do a very good job, because out of all the predictions here,
no one predicted it. In order to work as foreshadowing, at least someone has to get it.
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And the good cry of Sayaka doesn't mean she deep down accepted it and acknowlodged what she said to Madoka. Even if she realize the issue, her conflict definitely didn't get any answer at all, leading her to snap.
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Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Sadness
Acceptance
We see her go through these steps. This is how humans cope. Yeah, she's not back at 100%, but the psycho ending was a bit out of place because of this. I could have understood her continuing to be sad, and possibly depressed, but the ending was a bit extreme.
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