Re:Zero - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Stop sinking Emilia x Subaru

Considering she was still willing to hear him out in ep 17 under right cirmcustances, I don't think it's capsized yet mate.

[HayashiTakara]

The author himself believes that hooking with Rem will bring both of them true happiness and a life full of bliss and love.

/topic

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Considering she was still willing to hear him out in ep 17 under right cirmcustances, I don't think it's capsized yet mate.

Rem listens no matter what

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

He directed an obsessive tirade at her and said she owes him more than she could possibly know

Exactly. Subaru already said some harsh stuff to Emilia during their big fallout. Episode 17 takes it to a higher level, but it is consistent with what Subaru had already said to Emilia before.

Originally Posted by BetoJR

She did. Many times.

I was talking in the context of this particular instance in Episode 17. She could have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt in that instance, but she didn't.

Putting that aside, what are your many examples of Emilia giving Subaru the benefit of the doubt? She certainly didn't give Subaru the benefit of the doubt when it came to agreeing to let him accompany her to the big Royal Selection meeting. Not exactly a nice way to treat the guy that was crucial in saving a neighboring village, and a guy that has been consistently nice to you and supportive of you and helped you out a lot in that first arc.

The guy can't even really explain where he came from, for God's sake...

What can he explain to Rem? Is she choosing to trust him anyway?

And he broke that trust, inequivocally - and then,

By doing what? Standing up for her when nobody else would?

There's something I held back on before, but I'm saying it now - I was pretty disgusted by Emilia just completely hanging Subaru out to dry when he rushed to her defense during the big Royal Candidate meeting. Sure it was an embarrassing scene, and Subaru badly overdid it, but he was doing it because he couldn't stand to hear her insulted like this. It should have been clear to her why he was doing this, why he was shouting at the gathered crowd after they treated her very nastily. You know, a lot of characters in Emilia's situation would have been moved by that. A lot of characters in Emilia's situation would have deeply appreciated Subaru rising to defend her like that, even if it was embarrassing.

But she instead hung him out to dry, and just criticized him afterwards. Subaru did the wrong thing (practically speaking) but almost certainly for the right reasons, and it would have been nice if Emilia could have recognized that.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Rem listens no matter what

Yeah, just like she did in episode 7

...Oh wait

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Exactly. Subaru already said some harsh stuff to Emilia during their big fallout. Episode 17 takes it to a higher level, but it is consistent with what Subaru had already said to Emilia before.

What he said to her in ep 17 isn't anything like he said to her back in ep 13. You also seem to be ignoring Emilia's reaction to it and Subaru's own emotional state when the words came out. She seem to catch on that he wasn't talking to her. I don't see how that is consisent at all beyond losing control of himself and not talking properly. The rant itself even comes back in this episode during his self-reflection.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Yeah, just like she did in episode 7

...Oh wait

After he saved her life, just like Emilia

Originally Posted by Applehell

What he said to her in ep 17 isn't anything like he said to her back in ep 13. You also seem to be ignoring Emilia's reaction to it and Subaru's own emotional state when the words came out. I don't see how that is consisent at all beyond losing control of himself and not talking properly.

being less crazed =/= changing the contents

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Welcome to the internet where nobody gives enough respect and consideration to the other party and everybody refuses to discuss on an equal standing, because acknowledging the other party's point obviously means your own point must be wrong.

No... It's because the basis you people keep citing to be the cause of your arguments are either wrong or interpreted in a way that some of us cannot seem to wrap our heads around.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But she instead hung him out to dry, and just criticized him afterwards. Subaru did the wrong thing (practically speaking) but almost certainly for the right reasons, and it would have been nice if Emilia could have recognized that.

Her intent was to set him free, not to leave him out to dry.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

After he saved her life, just like Emilia

Doesn't mattter, the original statement wasn't true at all.

being less crazed =/= changing the contents

Not sure if you're being serious here. People say or do all kinds of dumb things they don't mean depending on their temperment at the time. This is well documented phenomenon plenty of people personal exprience. Rem secretly hidden happyness at her sister losing her horn is one in-universe example.

There is no denying a small part of him probably felt that way, but wasn't the entireity of his feelings.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Doesn't matter, the original statement wasn't true at all.

Not sure if you're being serious here. People say all kinds of dumb things they don't mean depending on their temperament at the time. This is well documented phenomenon plenty of people personal experience. Rem's secretly hidden happiness at her sister losing her horn is one in-universe example.

There is no denying a small part of him probably felt that way, but wasn't the entireity of his feelings.

Subaru saves Emilia, Emilia fails to acknowledge him. Subaru saves Rem, he becomes her world

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He was right about how the villagers were being threatened in the 2nd arc. There's reason to think that Subaru knows/figures out things that other people don't.

The only reason anyone actually believed him is because he presented actual physically observable proof that was backed up by Beatrice.

so she should think that Subaru isn't trying to trick her here.

That doesn't mean she should drop what she's doing for him without proof.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Putting that aside, what are your many examples of Emilia giving Subaru the benefit of the doubt? She certainly didn't give Subaru the benefit of the doubt when it came to agreeing to let him accompany her to the big Royal Selection meeting. Not exactly a nice way to treat the guy that was crucial in saving a neighboring village, and a guy that has been consistently nice to you and supportive of you and helped you out a lot in that first arc.

... So that means she should let him hang around her during an important event that has nothing to do with him?

What can he explain to Rem? Is she choosing to trust him anyway?

Rem is believing in him for her own subjective reasons, not because he's making sense.

By doing what? Standing up for her when nobody else would?

There's something I held back on before, but I'm saying it now - I was pretty disgusted by Emilia just completely hanging Subaru out to dry when he rushed to her defense during the big Royal Candidate meeting. Sure it was an embarrassing scene, and Subaru badly overdid it, but he was doing it because he couldn't stand to hear her insulted like this. It should have been clear to her why he was doing this, why he was shouting at the gathered crowd after they treated her very nastily. You know, a lot of characters in Emilia's situation would have been moved by that. A lot of characters in Emilia's situation would have deeply appreciated Subaru rising to defend her like that, even if it was embarrassing.

Perhaps if he hadn't broken his promise to her, and then showed up with her political adversary it would have had more of an effect?

[Anh_Minh]

There's absolutely no doubt that Rem is more devoted to Subaru than Emilia is. I'm not sure it's such a great point in her favor, though.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Perhaps if he hadn't broken his promise to her, and then showed up with her political adversary it would have had more of an effect?

That's a bit disingenuous since in that case he wouldn't have had the opportunity to stand up for her in the first place.

[Sohemo]

Originally Posted by aohige

"If the protagonist doesn't pick the girl of my choice we riot"

Good thing no one will actually have to.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Her intent was to set him free, not to leave him out to dry.

Set him free? Did he want to be set free? Did he give the slightest indication that he wanted to be set free?

You know what's really sad here? Emilia was even given an easy out. An easy way to show appreciation for Subaru standing up for her and still save face and not leave him in a difficult situation.

"Emilia-sama, if nothing else, he has shown us all that you are not one to be feared. You have a fine attendant." - One of the Council members(?) during the Royal Candidate meeting.

Emilia could have easily replied, "Yes, I know he means well, and I appreciate him standing up for me. And I'm very glad you can tell how his actions reflect that I am not someone to be feared. He is not my knight, but I value his friendship. Good bye for now."

Such a reply would probably have even been a positive for her in a political sense. But no, she couldn't even offer that much to Subaru after one of the bigwigs gave her the perfect opportunity to do so.

Originally Posted by Endscape

That doesn't mean she should drop what she's doing for him without proof.

She might have survived if she had trusted him, at least going strictly by what the anime has shown so far. There are good reasons for her to trust him, after everything he has done and said for her. Besides, sometimes in an emergency you don't have time to explain everything in detail anyway.

... So that means she should let him hang around her during an important event that has nothing to do with him?

What does it matter if it has anything to do with him or not? Do you think that would stop any of the other Royal Selection candidates from taking a close friend with them to this event? I certainly doubt it would stop Priscilla.

It's not like Emilia needs a good reason to take him. She could have simply chosen to agree with his request. She could have chosen to trust him.

Rem is believing in him for her own subjective reasons, not because he's making sense.

Rem is believing in him because he has proven his character and worth to her. He has proven to her that he is a hero. When you truly love someone and/or value that someone's friendship, you shouldn't always need proof to take them at their word. That's what putting your trust in someone is all about, and a romance is awfully empty if the two people in it can't trust each other like this.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She might have survived if she had trusted him, at least going strictly by what the anime has shown so far.

Doubtful. Betelgeuse would have killed her anyway.

Besides, sometimes in an emergency you don't have time to explain everything in detail anyway.

That doesn't mean you explain nothing at all.

What does it matter if it has anything to do with him or not?

You realize this wasn't a public event, right? Only people that were supposed to be there should be there.

Do you think that would stop any of the other Royal Selection candidates from taking a close friend with them to this event? I certainly doubt it would stop Priscilla.

Priscilla is in a position to do whatever she pleases. Emilia isn't.

It's not like Emilia needs a good reason to take him.

She actually does.

Rem is believing in him because he has proven his character and worth to her. He has proven to her that he is a hero.

Subaru might have proven his character to Rem, but he hasn't proven it to Emilia. In fact, his actions did the exact opposite.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Exactly. Subaru already said some harsh stuff to Emilia during their big fallout. Episode 17 takes it to a higher level, but it is consistent with what Subaru had already said to Emilia before.




I was talking in the context of this particular instance in Episode 17. She could have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt in that instance, but she didn't.

Putting that aside, what are your many examples of Emilia giving Subaru the benefit of the doubt? She certainly didn't give Subaru the benefit of the doubt when it came to agreeing to let him accompany her to the big Royal Selection meeting. Not exactly a nice way to treat the guy that was crucial in saving a neighboring village, and a guy that has been consistently nice to you and supportive of you and helped you out a lot in that first arc.




What can he explain to Rem? Is she choosing to trust him anyway?




By doing what? Standing up for her when nobody else would?

There's something I held back on before, but I'm saying it now - I was pretty disgusted by Emilia just completely hanging Subaru out to dry when he rushed to her defense during the big Royal Candidate meeting. Sure it was an embarrassing scene, and Subaru badly overdid it, but he was doing it because he couldn't stand to hear her insulted like this. It should have been clear to her why he was doing this, why he was shouting at the gathered crowd after they treated her very nastily. You know, a lot of characters in Emilia's situation would have been moved by that. A lot of characters in Emilia's situation would have deeply appreciated Subaru rising to defend her like that, even if it was embarrassing.

But she instead hung him out to dry, and just criticized him afterwards. Subaru did the wrong thing (practically speaking) but almost certainly for the right reasons, and it would have been nice if Emilia could have recognized that.

Well, I think your perspective is a little unfair towards Emilia's position.
I suggest rewatching the show a bit, not just to you but to all anime-only viewers because there is actually a lot of information that could be missed for first-timers.

I will try to come a bit from Emilia's position;

- Emilia paid an (unstated) price (evident from Crush's words later in episode 14, 14 minutes+) and formed a contract with Crush's faction to get Subaru healed for his fractured gate (go back to episode 12 and watch the starting few minutes; Felis and Wilheim visited because of that reason and Emilia didn't want Subaru to know; at 4 minutes, Felis was checking Subaru out - the extent of the damage to his gate to be precise; at 5 minutes+ Roswaal also mentioned that Emilia had a hard time enlisting their help)

- At 15 minutes of episode 12, Emilia made Subaru promise her to stay put and further pleaded with him to give her a reason to trust him;
This promise broken was actually the start of the fallout with him for her; recall from the latest episode what Puck said when he admonished Subaru. Promises are sacred and the most important thing to spirit contractors.

Contrary to what you mentioned, after the fiasco at the selection, she certainly did not jump on him right away and gave him a chance to explain his position. Even though he broke his promise, which was an absolutely sacred thing to her, she listened to him first. Of course I'm not faulting Subaru here since he couldn't reveal his secret. She then proceeded to firmly assert that he was to stay here and she would return to the mansion. The reason why she was adamant about it was because his gate was in a really bad shape and could pose a threat to his life; and if he were to go back with her, they would never be able to enlist Felis help again to heal him (again evident from Crush's words in episode 14). Not once did she talk about the contract or the price she paid. All she wanted was for him to be healed. Unfortunately, they were in a state of misunderstanding and the conversation took a bad turn and they parted with things in a sour state (there was also a point on mismatching perspectives that hastened or amplified the fallout: Subaru told Emilia that he was treating her as someone special, but those words hurt Emilia as she wanted to be treated as ordinary ('special' to her = her half-elf Satella-resemblance status)).

I'm one of those who rarely like to make long posts so I don't really want to go further on too much.

But Emilia does care a lot about Subaru and tries to do things for him while remaining quiet about it. When Subaru wanted to take her to the village in arc 2, she was initially hesitant because she was fearful she would hurt his image because of her hated half-elf status. Her not acknowledging Subaru as her knight was partly, another way of hers in protecting him.

For reasons not evident from the anime yet, the royal selection was no doubt extremely important to her and she was upset about his actions sure. But when she learned about him fighting Julius, she was genuinely concerned about his well-being. And in her harsh words after that, despite the importance of the selection, she never once used the royal selection as a reason (she only talked about the importance of royal selection previously to try to get Subaru stay out of harm's way). Her post-reprimands and retorts during the confrontation at that time were centered primarily on 2 things:

1. she needed Subaru to keep his promise because of its sacredness to her; and because of that paradigm in her position as a spirit contractor, it's very hard for her to trust someone who breaks promises, she keeps talking about the need to give her a reason to trust him and the audience is only supposed to understand those actions and words of hers after Puck admonished Subaru in episode 18; it's because of the paradigm she operates from which is different from Rem.

2. she did not want Subaru to get in further harm's way because of her; she was really upset in arc 2 where Subaru's life was literally on the line from the Mabeasts' attacks, and his final use of Shamac caused his gate to be in a really bad shape; going back again to the scene when she made him promise to stay put, she said he would do unreasonable things again if he followed, and what happened at the duel? He used Shamac on Julius again. He could have lost his life from that and this made her incredibly upset again (but she still believed he might have a good reason while she asked him in a trembling voice). As to why she did not reveal this, because doing that would result in her to inevitably revealing the contract and the price she paid. Well, since the nature of the contract was not really clear, I won't dispute much if you fault her on that (ie. not being honest with Subaru) .


Finally, my interpretation of his words to Emilia in episode 17 would be: he started directing them to her, but when he got to the part with corpses, it was like a superimposition on himself as well, and this originated from the despair he was feeling because he was in a deadlock right now in which he saw no way out (detour and arriving too late vs no detour and encountering the white whale) plus he just lost Rem again.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But if you do contrast this with where the Subaru/Rem relationship currently stands... it's like total night and day! I have to be frank - I'm absolutely amazed that some people don't seem to get/accept why some of us are not pleased with Subaru saying "I love Emilia" to Rem at this juncture in the story.

I know i said i would stop discussing this subject but since everyone started to do it again i'm going to take this opportunity to further explain what i was trying to say.
I can't speak for the others but my problem is not accepting/understanding why some people are upset with the outcome of this episode. Actually, i even said Rem is being the best girl so far and it would be nice if Subaru could marry her already..lol. So, even tho i do not actually care about waifu wars/shipping i get why Rem fans are upset. I just can't accept the fact people saying it was illogical for Subaru still chosing Emilia after what happened tho. I have no doubts Rem is the best logical choice for him especially after what happened in this episode and i totally agree with you regarding Emilia's dubious actions towards Subaru during the Royal Candidate meeting. Emilia was indeed a bitch there and even i suspecting there was a reason for her to act like that (especially after she saw Subaru talking with Priscilla and Puck explaining how sacred promises are for Spirit users), it was still bad. However, should you give up on the person you love just because you had a misunderstanding and failed to express your feelings towards said person? Should you just give up on the person you love just because someone else made so much for you? Should we all just forget all the things that made Subaru go nuts for Emilia and saying his feelings are totally illogical and superficial just because they had some troubles in arc 3 and because most of you ship Rem? That is what i can't agree.

Plus, regarding Subaru words towards Emilia in episode 17, i also had the feeling he was in part talking about himself, that's why he started to cry and made Emilia extremelly confused to what the hell is going on. I would say she took it pretty well and was very comprehensive to him given the harsh words he said.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

The author himself believes that hooking with Rem will bring both of them true happiness and a life full of bliss and love.

/topic

So what you are saying is that Rem X Subaru is never going to happen?

Considering the type of story Re:Zero is.

How depressing.

[HayashiTakara]

This is how I see it. Emilia is the girlfriend where if you don't explain every single thing out in words, it'll always lead to arguments and misunderstandings (from my understanding this aspect of her carries on beyond this arc). While Rem, you don't have to say much of anything because she understands you, and the type of person you are, she'll be patient and kill you with kindness, until you're ready to tell her what you need to tell her.

[tokinokanatae]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

This is how I see it. Emilia is the girlfriend where if you don't explain every single thing out in words, it'll always lead to arguments and misunderstandings (from my understanding this aspect of her carries on beyond this arc). While Rem, you don't have to say much of anything because she understands you, and the type of person you are, she'll be patient and kill you with kindness, until you're ready to tell her what you need to tell her.

I'd say it's more like Rem is the type that is impossible to have a discussion with--you'll definitely never be able to fight with her, for good or for ill--and will also make unilateral moves in the relationship based on what she thinks is best. Emilia will at least hear you out before making a decision. Rem will seem to be with you, but will refuse to be reasoned with if she thinks it's for your greater good or her mind has been made up. That's not a good thing in most romantic partnerships, btw.