Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Ragna isn't a planet settled by an emigration fleet. It had intelligent people and its own government before the fleet got there.

Mmhmm which is what we talk about in the episode thread. NUN needs a new overhaul like happened post 7 after Delta.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

According Shoji Kawamori interview with Forbes Chaos is more like Google as a megacorp.

Precisely. It's a private company. I was sure it wasn't even specialized in security services but also had other ones.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Ragna isn't a planet settled by an emigration fleet. It had intelligent people and its own government before the fleet got there.

Weird, I could swear that Barette City is an emigration fleet with Terrans, Zentradi and Ragnans coexisting well together.

Spoiler for Fleet:

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by AkitoW013

Weird, I could swear that Barette City is an emigration fleet with Terrans, Zentradi and Ragnans coexisting well together.

Spoiler for Fleet:

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that Ragna as planet with its own people existed before NUN's fleet got there, so NUNS doesn't have the right to blow up stuff in the planet without authorization from the local government.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that Ragna as planet with its own people existed before NUN's fleet got there, so NUNS doesn't have the right to blow up stuff in the planet without authorization from the local government.

And yet Windermere does?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And yet Windermere does?

Did I say that?

But let's not forget Windermere started this war claiming NUNS was overstepping their bounds in the cluster, and we saw NUNS doing just that this episode.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that Ragna as planet with its own people existed before NUN's fleet got there, so NUNS doesn't have the right to blow up stuff in the planet without authorization from the local government.

And when did the local government appeared to say they didn't gave them their consent to do it?

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by AkitoW013

And when did the local government appeared to say they didn't gave them their consent to do it?

We don't actually know if the did or didn't give their consent.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

So you are saying it is all NUNS fault why Windermere do bad things cause they are children that can't be held accountable for their actions.

AKA assigning blame.

Nice strawman, but I wasn't saying that, and you know it very well and are arguing in bad faith. (Or if this was a honest argument then you might have missed the part of growing up where one learns that actions have consequences that also have consequences, etc.)

That said, Heinz is cute and child Roid and Keith were adorable, so I wouldn't mind if the Windermere cast were in fact children.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

That's not the point. What I'm saying is that Ragna as planet with its own people existed before NUN's fleet got there, so NUNS doesn't have the right to blow up stuff in the planet without authorization from the local government.

Yes and no basically.

No, because operational command was with Elysium. And as far as I remember, Ernest could have ordered to stop detonate the bombs because he is one or two ranks above that NUN major. Some higher up had to give the order.

Yes because Ragnar was within military operational zone and didn't that NUN Major mentioned something into that direction that NUN is allowed according to their treaties?

At the end NUN looks bad because they did not care for friend and foe.

[Tak]

I think you just repeated what I said pretty much...

Originally Posted by Thess

They. Are. Not. NUN. Stop overlapping them, please.

Protagonists: Chaos.
Antagonists: Central office NUN, Windermere (Epsilon?).

I am not equating Chaos to NUN or overlapping them, and I don't know why you'd think that way. You have to point out where I equate Chaos to NUN. I thought my post couldn't be simpler. Chaos is permitted to operate within a set of framework imposed by the NUN as long as interests do not conflict. Its that simple.

What is this framework? Laws, policies, treaties, boundaries... etc of the central (NUN) government.

If NUNs is authorized to bomb planet A by the NUN and Chaos decided to defend A, Chaos would have in fact, committed treason. They are called dogs of the NUN precisely because Chaos ultimately submits to NUN laws & regulations. Why is that so difficult to articulate? How much freedom do you think PMCs in the real world is given?

Only one group within the NUN can get away with serious crap, our lovable Zentradi allies.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Tak

Only one group within the NUN can get away with serious crap, our lovable Zentradi allies.

- Tak

I think SMS also got away, but only because the old patriotic captain and his crew were proven to be right with their piracy.

Btw. in episode 13 the NUN liaison office was just pretty straight: This is a NUN operation. You have no word in the matter.

Without going any further, this NUN officer just lectured Arad, where his place is within chain of command.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I think SMS also got away, but only because the old patriotic captain and his crew were proven to be right with their piracy.

There probably was a meeting where a PR person pointed out what a public relations disaster it would be to try Ranka and the SMS crew for treason after they saved the fleet, made the Vajra go away and got them a free planet to boot.

[karice67]

And as for this:

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why don't you think Var-style mind control is on the level of rape and pillage?

*snip*

Mostly because of intent. Raping and pillaging in war is typically done to humiliate people; what Windermere is doing is trying to achieve their political goal (kick earthlings out of the sector) with as little loss of life as possible. And it is motivated by something that was akin to 'rape and pillage' being ventured upon them--though if you don't quite understand what is going on with the 'wind' that they are always talking about, then I doubt you'll understand what I'm saying here.

But as always, I'm happy to agree to disagree. Though getting less and less inclined to keep posting here, because of how confrontational this whole 'discussion' has been.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

And as for this:

Mostly because of intent.

The intent behind raping and pillaging can vary from case to case. In any event, raping and pillaging are considered very bad because of the harm they visit upon people. And Var visits a similar sort and degree of harm on the people who experience it. Intentional var use can be just as harmful as raping and pillaging are. They're all on the same level.

Originally Posted by karice67

...what Windermere is doing is trying to achieve their political goal (kick earthlings out of the sector) with as little loss of life as possible.

I think you're giving Windermere too much credit here.

From Episode 13...

Arad: We're abandoning Ragna!

Hayate: We're running away?!

Arad: Civilians have been affected by Var. If violence ensues, casualties will be sky-high. We'll suppress the Var with Walkure's singing and bring in as many civilians as possible before we take off.


That certainly doesn't sound like "as little loss of life as possible" to me. Windermere is using Var because they wouldn't have a chance of victory otherwise, due to sheer numbers.

And it is motivated by something that was akin to 'rape and pillage' being ventured upon them--

What's your evidence of that?

But as always, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

So are you completely unwilling to change your mind, then?

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What's your evidence of that?

I've pointed it out before. But as I said, if you don't understand the significance of fold communication, then I doubt you'll share my view on this.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So are you completely unwilling to change your mind, then?

My thoughts on this series aren't set in stone, and I have indicated as much in previous posts, including a long one you didn't respond to. So I can only assume that you're not interested in engaging with what I wrote.

======

Well, I think that's it for me here. What I've seen reminds me of a few other spiteful discussions I've been involved in, and I don't want to be part of another one.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by karice67

I've pointed it out before.

I vaguely recall you interpreting Windermere's words to mean that something truly terrible was done to them. Your interpretation may well be correct, but even if so, that's still just Windermere's own assessment of things, which may or may not be entirely honest. Even if honest, it may be exaggerated.

My thoughts on this series aren't set in stone,

When I wrote "So are you completely unwilling to change your mind, then?", I wasn't talking about views on the series as a whole, necessarily. I was talking in the context of disagreement over Var in particular.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When I wrote "So are you completely unwilling to change your mind, then?", I wasn't talking about views on the series as a whole, necessarily. I was talking in the context of disagreement over Var in particular.

Does anyone really engage in these sort of discussions with the purpose of changing other people's views? That sounds a little arrogant to me.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by karice67

And as for this:



Mostly because of intent. Raping and pillaging in war is typically done to humiliate people; what Windermere is doing is trying to achieve their political goal (kick earthlings out of the sector) with as little loss of life as possible. And it is motivated by something that was akin to 'rape and pillage' being ventured upon them--though if you don't quite understand what is going on with the 'wind' that they are always talking about, then I doubt you'll understand what I'm saying here.

But as always, I'm happy to agree to disagree. Though getting less and less inclined to keep posting here, because of how confrontational this whole 'discussion' has been.

Your link is a link to a theme which is called Wartime SEXUAL violence. I don't think - in any case - that Heinz song is a sexual harrassment to those affected by VAR.

Although VAR is being used to manipulate the mind it is possible to keep control of it and having the benefit of heightened strength, endurance and reaction time.

At the end of establishing Starwind sector. We don't know how many casualties it has caused to civilians. But we know that NUN has caused civilian and also deaths on their own soldiers. Thinking as a member of Chaos I would have more thoughts about NUNS rather than Windermere. NUNS has caused a strong distrust taking damage at the own troops.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

At the end of establishing Starwind sector. We don't know how many casualties it has caused to civilians.

We do know however several years before perfecting mind control we know Var has caused deaths of civilians across the galaxy. As Windermere spread those apples. Marianburg on Aifheim was wiped out by Var before Walkure got there two years ago. We saw the 10 incidents before in Al Shahal had civilian casualties. Heinz cause Zentradi troops in a frenzy to attack civilians in episode 1.

Here is what is hypocritical of the Aerial Knights. They do not want to die protecting other worlds. They perfectly fine with enslaved soldiers dying for them.

These guys are exemplifying the worst traits of the Protoculture and the Protodevlin.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

We do know however several years before perfecting mind control we know Var has caused deaths of civilians across the galaxy. As Windermere spread those apples. Marianburg on Aifheim was wiped out by Var before Walkure got there two years ago. We saw the 10 incidents before in Al Shahal had civilian casualties. Heinz cause Zentradi troops in a frenzy to attack civilians.

Here is what is hypocritical of the Aerial Knights. They do not want to die protecting other worlds. They perfectly fine with enslaved soldiers dying for them.

These guys are exemplifying the worst traits of the Protoculture and the Protodevlin.

..... In order to activate the Var spread by the Windermerians apples the song of wind must be sung.
In Marianburg there has been no evidence of having heard said song, Messer never said anything about hearing any song aside from Kaname's and also Keith's manga has clearly stated that Al-Shahal was their first major attack.... Also it is unknown if the apples plus water are the only methods to starting Var....