Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Varis]

Originally Posted by Majek

Well of course after a intense mindrape you'll have alook peace on your face.

And Zero IS a murderer there's nothing wrong with that Suzaku's statement.

No one denies that Lulu murderer, we just think it's annoying how the pot is calling the kettle black. With a righteous tone on top of it.

[Viperus]

Yeah , he convinced himself that he is helping his people , but he's really afraid to admit that he is the military's dog.

My friends are opsessed with Ogame , so here's a reference from Ogame that I was forced to listen during school : "guy A was a spy from clan A , he joined clan B , saying that he'll help clan A by sabotaging clan B, but since clan B was stronger , he sticked with clan B. (his intent was honest, but when he saw the strenght of the clan B he got seduced by the power).

Ok , that was a stupid comparision , but thats what happened with Suzaku , he doesnt have the strenght to oppose them , I mean , what would you do if you piloted the strongest robot on the planet (that probably needs $$$$$$$ and a very complicated maintenence so its pointless to steal it).

Basicly he got bribed , but he's still convincing himself he's the good guy.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by seraphon

well suzaku is a murderer too then. And I was snapping about the way he says it. He said as if he had no part in it and that it was entirely zero s fault the JLF died....... and you know its easy to say zero is a murderer but I dont hear suzaku saying anything to his superiors.

Well how many people has Suzaku killed untill ep 13 where he (supposedly) killed the soldiers on the boat?

Originally Posted by seraphon

And I think the face wasnt because of the mind rape...... because in that case C.C and lulu also had a mind rape and they fare better.........
You knowing seeing a memorie about your father then going berserk saying AARRRRGGGGG I HAD NO CHOICE totally sound like what a traitor say to the face of those he betrayed.

Of course only traitor are ever faced with maing tough decisions that their fathers wouldn't approve and he saw much more that just his father. WHo knows what esle he haad been shown , especially when it all went out of control when LULu touched CC.

[Plan 36]

Well, by foiling Lelouch's plan he aids in killing many people. In ep 2, if not for Lelouch all those Japanese in Shinjuku would be killed). Ep 13, he didn't stop when the JLF surrendered and would have killed them all if Lelouch didn't do it for him. And we still don't know what's the deal between him and his father.

Really, he's a hipocrite.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by Plan 36

Well, by foiling Lelouch's plan he aids in killing many people. In ep 2, if not for Lelouch all those Japanese in Shinjuku would be killed). Ep 13, he didn't stop when the JLF surrendered and would have killed them all if Lelouch didn't do it for him. And we still don't know what's the deal between him and his father.

Really, he's a hipocrite.

That's a really good answer to my question.

So every soldier is hypocrite? Anway i'm fine with Suzaku being labeled a hypocrite but NOT for calling and beliveing Zero a murderer.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Majek

Well how many people has Suzaku killed untill ep 13 where he (supposedly) killed the soldiers on the boat?



Of course only traitor are ever faced with maing tough decisions that their fathers wouldn't approve and he saw much more that just his father. WHo knows what esle he haad been shown , especially when it all went out of control when LULu touched CC.

Why would that matter? Does he get some sort of prize when he kills more? Or maybe he's only considered a murderer when he's killed a certain amount of people?

Originally Posted by Majek

That's a really good answer to my question.

So every soldier is hypocrite? Anway i'm fine with Suzaku being labeled a hypocrite but NOT for calling and beliveing Zero a murderer.

Shrugs. Most soldiers don't go around saying 'THIS ISNT JUSTICE!!!!'. I mean, its fine to join the army if you realise you may have to end up killing people who deserve to live just as much as you do and that sometimes it cant be helped cause its war. However, I draw the line at people joining the army and thinking theyre enacting justice on the world. This is what the rest of society calls self-righteous hypocrites.

So yeah Suzaku IS a hypocrite for the simple reason that he is really no better than Zero and yet constantly spouts bullcrap about how he is somehow idealistically better. In other words, Suzaku is a hypocrite for calling and believing Zero a murderer AND believing himself better than Zero when he isnt

[Majek]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Why would that matter? Does he get some sort of prize when he kills more? Or maybe he's only considered a murderer when he's killed a certain amount of people?

Well if you don't know if he even killed anyone how can you call that person a murderer?

[evil|plushie]

Uh...the people in the JLF cannon he blew up? Thats pretty much a confirmed kill. And that was just in episode 8

[seraphon]

well Majek, If suzaku really betrayed his father for a very,very good reason why is he so agitated about it? well of course you cannot not have remorse about betraying your own father but in suzaku's case, he totally looks like he had no real good reasons for doing it. Like I said the face he shows in ep11 after the "mindrape" like you said, is the face of someone who fells reallllyyyyyyy guilty about something and tries to deny reality.

Well to be fair all of this is only guessing on my part, but I keep saying that that face in ep11 isnt the face of a hero of justice.

[Santa Claus]

Warning: Minor spoilers for up to Episode 10.

Yes, unlikely. But that is the only way he knows that he can make a difference without getting other people involved if he commits rebellion. Unlike Lulu, everyone knows who Suzaku is. Suzaku risks a lot more, because not only does the hopes of better treatment of Honorary Britannians is a burden on him, the greater acceptance and trust of other Numbers apply for him as well.

He could also have tried, in the newer eps, to influence Euphie and Cornelia to make changes. As far as we can see, he did not. And he does have Euphie’s ear, who in turn has Cornelia’s ear.

And yes, the end result of his transformation plan looks better on paper – and that’s only IF those in power decide it’s in their best interests to enact change. What does that have to do with my argument that his ‘plan’ is unlikely to work in a military dictatorship that seems to control the media?

Which is why I agreed... is there a problem with agreeing?

Did I say there was a problem with agreeing?

I must have read your post incorrectly, because it sounded like a lecture when I got to that part. My apologies if I was wrong.

And? If the Geass wasn't around, Lelouch wouldn't have been able to be where he is right now in a matter of weeks. By the time, Lelouch reached where he is now without the Geas, he might've already been killed since he'd have no C.C. to save him anymore.

You're being too tough on Suzaku for his dependence intertwined fate with Zero, while you also seem to conveniently forget Lelouch's dependence on the Geas and C.C. to make his plans succeed as quickly as they have.

Sure. Lelouch definitely wouldn’t be where he is now without the Geass. However, it’s up in the air as to how far he’d get with his sadistic dream. He’s Britannian, and he’s an imperial prince. If he was willing to be completely ruthless, I’d say he would probably have gotten quite far. Meanwhile, I see Suzaku in a military dictatorship in which the only thing that can help him achieve his goals – excluding the Imperial Princesses he’d otherwise never have met – is the media. Look how sycophantic the media was towards Clovis, and remember the fate of those who covered Zero’s appearances. I’m sure they’d be willing to do exclusives on him to further his cause.

But again, that’s conjecture, so I’ll try to leave it out of the debate. But let’s put things into perspective: Lulu uses the Geas quite often. Sure. He doesn’t always seem to use it in the most intelligent way, but he gets things done using this PD of his. What does Suzaku do to further his own goals, besides beating down on his own countrymen? You might say that without constant rebellions, there would be no discrimination towards Elevens. But how likely is it that Britannians – a people raised to believe might makes right – will suddenly accept the Japanese as anything other than a subordinate, defeated race? Their nation lost, which means they as a people are weak and inferior, both mentally and physically. I’m basing this on the sheer number of racist, apathetic Britannians in the series, and on real life.

And does Lulu use his ability to come up with plans? It certainly is a major factor in his schemes, but it certainly doesn’t draw up his plans for him. He does have a brain.

Sure doesn't sound like it.

That’s because you seem to look for insults that aren’t there. If you’ll look back to my previous posts, you won’t find anyplace where I call him a treacherous traitor, as other posters chose to do.

If I recall correctly, the most I did was call him stupid. I’m pretty sure I only insulted his original character concept and his plan, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt as I’m too lazy to check my posts. Well let’s see…He has an arguably unworkable ‘plan,’ and seems quite blind to the atrocities Britannians willingly commit, while condemning the unintentional actions of rebels. I could have called him a traitor to his nation, but I didn’t, as I believe he honestly thinks what he’s doing is to the benefit of all Elevens (as well as other Numbers.) It’s just that he has no plan worth considering.

Would it make you happier if I called him a naïve idealist instead? Or should I just bow down to his infinite wisdom and compassion?

Yes. Isn't it obvious that Clovis doesn't have even half the brains of Cornelia in battle?

What does this have to do with my argument? In Narita, Cornelia didn’t want to use the Lancelot on the front lines either. And that’s after she saw its power during the hostage incident.

And also, without the Geas or C.C., Lulu might never have been able to achieve anything as well.

Trying to discredit the characters by using their plot devices is kind of... suck. If both of them didn't have any plot devices, this series would have ended in one episode.

It becomes less “suck” if we realize that Suzaku couldn’t have foreseen he’d pilot an uber mech and miraculously climb the military ranks – something no Number was ever allowed to do. Again, I’m saying his original plan was lacking in imagination and forethought. It worked out because of the plot, and the fact that this is a cartoon. In the real world, it’d likely never work.

Yes, Lulu couldn’t have foreseen the Geas either. And even though he told C.C. he had plans to destroy the Empire, I do have my doubts. But take a look at him: he’s royalty and has connections (Ashfords.) He’d make a good pawn for families not in power. The only thing against this is his intelligence and spine – though from what we’ve seen, he can put up a pretty convincing act if he wants to.

At the very least he could help destroy one of the resistance factions to get back in his father’s good graces. He obviously did a lot of research on the Kyoto group – enough to narrow down the leaders to a small list of candidates. I tend to think of this as prior research on his part, though of course we are not told whether this is so.

For some reason you seem to think I’m arguing for Lulu. For all his vaunted intelligence, I believe he’s almost every bit as idiotic as Suzaku, who at least has the excuse that he might have had some mental trauma in his childhood. All I’ve said so far in Lulu’s favor is his plan stands a chance of success, and that he at least uses his PDs to further his goals. Just because I haven’t ragged too much on him yet doesn’t mean a thing. Remember, I did call him an idiot, too – something I’m not sure I even did for Suzaku in previous posts.

It's not a matter of who has the higher chance to succeed that the topic asks. It's a matter of who is more righteous of these two gray characters.

(If you ask me, it's even more ridiculous to ask such a question, since right and wrong changes for every person since we all live in a gray world.)

I agree: it is a ridiculous question, since what is white and good for one person may be dark and evil for another. Which is why I focused on my question, as I believe Suzaku’s efforts are all for nothing (as per his initial plan.) It is not entirely off topic.

Well, do we need to count them? What I wanted to imply is that blaming a character's development through their plot devices is a basically useless argument. Both use a lot of plot devices to get their plans saved that the two are in a friggin' deadlock as of now.

I addressed this above.

Suzaku has no plans in need of saving, and he doesn’t seem to use his newfound station and influence in any way.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS!?! That is what Suzaku wants to friggin' change! He wants to defeat this discrimination by replacing it with trust and respect.

Just because you're different one day doesn't mean you can't change the next. That is what assimilation is for. And the kind of assimilation that Suzaku wants is one where all his fellow Elevens can be treated as equals and partners in the Empire that he is serving now.

‘Defeat discrimination by replacing it with trust and respect’ sounds good in a democratic nation, which is the reason why I included the examples that I did.

The Numbers system in practice is hardly assimilation. It’s more like enforced servitude. HBs can’t get anywhere in the military. They are allowed to govern themselves (right?) as puppets friendly to Britannian interests, first and foremost. We only have to look at the Britannian suburbs and the Eleven ghettoes to see this.

Racism and discrimination are not easy to combat, and they will never die down. And in many ways apathy is much worse. There will never be equality so long as the Numbers system exists. If they truly wanted to assimilate the Japanese, they’d have granted them citizenship status, not slap them with a numerical designation. And one soldier is supposed to change all of this? Britannia is more despotic than our Rome ever was. That was why I brought up ol’ Stilicho. This man is just one in a long line of “impure” Roman soldiers and generals who’ve earned their share of honors defending the empire. Their people were “assimilated” through political/military reforms centuries ago. And yet the foederati were never seen as equals. And not in the entire existence of the Empire were they “partners.” It’s been a while since I’ve read up on the subject of course, so I may be mistaken. But I doubt it.

Frankly the most the Elevens have to look forward to is a lifetime of subservience, discrimination and second class citizenship. In return for meekly bowing down to this, they will not get mowed down on the whim of their Britannian overlords. And that’s if none of their fellow Numbers commit acts of treason within a 100 mile radius of their position. One has to wonder if the Ashford Students’ (who are far removed from their motherland) lack of compassion for the plight of Shinjuku is indicative of their nation as a whole.

Maybe in the Geass world it’s different, but I’ve never seen a case of similar occupations working out in the real world.

Well, if my reading of Cornelia's personality is correct, she places Suzaku in her unit out of gratitude. Though Cornelia shows that she is a brutal military commander, when she was about to get nabbed at Narita, she showed that she also has pride and honor as an Imperial Princess. She has honor, for short.

I’d say she has pride, and maybe a smidgeon of honor, if that. Even given what you say, I doubt she’ll be elevating other Elevens any time soon though.

Umm... so talking about a dead guy would do what? Dead people can't change, that much I can say.

I was saying that this dead guy would never have allowed any of Suzaku’s great deeds to come to light, and was even less likely to promote him. At best Suzaku would have remained a Private. In that case his plan just died.

Lol, same with Lulu. Very lovely, indeed.

I’d agree, except Lulu uses his ability to further his goals. Suzaku does as well, but then doesn’t even say a thing regarding equality.

Well, please stick that discussion again when Suzaku gets killed. Then, I will yield.

Would you have been happier if I left out the part where Stilicho is killed? The parallel I pointed out to still stands: both were/are regarded as second-class citizens and bestial. Both strived hard in the military, and both were/are climbing the ranks. The only difference is Stilicho was just one in a long line of non-Roman soldiers/generals loyal to Rome. As far as we can see, Suzaku is the only one with that plan of his. He’s got HB compatriots in the army sure, but we never see what they have to say on the subject.

End result? Both Rome and Britannia still treat(ed) their foederati/Numbers like garbage. How about I find another barbarian Roman soldier that wasn’t killed off by those interested in keeping the status quo? What difference would it make with my argument that Suzaku’s plan has practically no chance of success? I’d give him 10,000 years and still be called stingy.

But hey, if that man OBVIOUSLY believes in Social Darwinism, if Suzaku proves the worth of being a Number doesn't necessarily mean weakling, won't that said man also respect Suzaku. And to gain the Emperor's respect can make it look like a sign of new times, right? Besides, I've never even heard anything that says the Emperor is Purist. Well, even Cornelia had semi-Purist ideals before she was saved by Suzaku, right?

….

He's a soldier. If he proves himself in the many other wars that the Empire is in right now, then, even without a Zero, he would have climbed of his own free will. And who's to say that even without Zero, he wouldn't have gotten obtained the Lancelot just through Lloyd's search for a good pilot?

Unlikely that he’d have risen through the ranks. How is he going to prove himself to a superior who considers him a monkey? From what we’ve seen, Britannian regulars appear to be made up of pure Britannians. Knights dominate the battlefield, and Numbers can’t become pilots. So how, again, is he going to prove himself? How is Lloyd going to find him in his search for a good pilot? Even if he miraculously ended up as the pilot, who is going to let him onto the field?

Well, isn't following orders how people advance in real life as well (apart from killing your masters and stealing their wealth)? Don't tell me you didn't know that.

It’s difficult even in a democracy to advance in an army composed of highly discriminatory higher ups determined to keep you down. Don’t tell me you didn’t know that.

And having an eye that controls people is?

Understand that based on how Suzaku is built as an HB, that is the only thing he can do.

You’re picking at straws. I said it’s more difficult to change something than to destroy it. I understand that joining the military is something Suzaku can do. Whether it’s the only thing he can do to bring about change is arguable. He could try to work in the regional government. I thought the Britannians wanted Numbers to govern themselves, as long as they govern in the Empire’s best interests at the expense of their own countrymen.

So let’s say it’s the only thing he can do. Does that make it so his plan has more than a sliver’s chance of success? No.

Umm... you didn't even understand the distinct difference that I gave...

As I have posted somewhere before, there must be a condition to be able to make changes in the system. You must be able to get in it. The Indian-Colonial thing had no room for the Natives to get in. Hence, the reservations.

Britannia, however, has room where a person can enter the government to make changes. A very distinct difference.

No. Britannia doesn’t have room where a person can enter to make changes. It was never claimed that this is the case: what they say is that people can govern themselves. Puppets, in other words. You really think that the royalty wants to rock the boat? They’re perfectly fine where they are; their nation is the only superpower in the world and they are rich and powerful. Pure Britannians seem loyal enough, and only pockets of resistance to their rule exist in Number territories. They even invade on the Eurasian continent (where the EEU and Chinese Federation are) with seeming impunity.

Of course there was room for Natives to get into the army. Many were employed (used would be the better word) as scouts and spies. They were quite effective, too. But disregarding that, what of Rome? Barbarians could get into the army, can even rise though the ranks. Wasn’t a utopia for them there, even though they some looked much like ordinary Romans.

Didn't I say acceptance is slow to come? Or, do you just hate reading what I post?

I suggest you calm down. For someone who claims to read between a character’s lines, you sure like to ignore what I have to say in prior posts. Acceptance will never come. It never did (between people of dissimilar cultures) for any Empire in RL history, and I can only assume it never will in the world of CG. But then again there seems to be magic in that world, so hey, anything’s possible.

We aren't told if other HBs are able to join the local government just as easily as they can the army. As such, the path to better government doesn't just lie on having a 7th gen Knightmare Frame that gets a person involved with an Imperial Princess. There must be others who think just like Suzaku who work to make Area 11 better without resorting to belligerency. I highly doubt that Suzaku's the only one who thinks that Elevens can't work hand in hand with the now incumbent powers that rule their nation. So making such a provoking remark isn't really useful for this argument with the sarcasm.

I don’t have the episodes on me anymore, but I thought Britannians wanted the Numbers to govern themselves, with perhaps a Britannian in overall authority?

And a sarcastic remark was made to a poster who fancied himself the all and end all of character judges.

Yes, conjecture indeed. What use is a disinherited prince if there is already another person that will take the crown. Even before being disinherited, Lulu was like 17th in succession to the throne...

... that's very far.

The funny thing is, he’s the seventeenth successor, but gg also says second in line to the throne in the same sentence. I’m no judge of European nobility rankings, but if his mother was the Empress – the legal wife – then as the eldest son, Lulu should be the heir apparent. That’s assuming his pops doesn’t just nominate whoever the hell he wants, which would fit the character of the nation.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Uh...the people in the JLF cannon he blew up? Thats pretty much a confirmed kill. And that was just in episode 8

uh "Pretty much a confirmed kill" ... without proof is nothing.
edit: But allright. You win.

Originally Posted by seraphon

well Majek, If suzaku really betrayed his father for a very,very good reason why is he so agitated about it? well of course you cannot not have remorse about betraying your own father but in suzaku's case, he totally looks like he had no real good reasons for doing it. Like I said the face he shows in ep11 after the "mindrape" like you said, is the face of someone who fells reallllyyyyyyy guilty about something and tries to deny reality.

Well to be fair all of this is only guessing on my part, but I keep saying that that face in ep11 isnt the face of a hero of justice.

And i'm saying he looks like someone who has been frocefully confornted with images a dead person and has done something that dead person wouldn't not have approve off. edit: So yes have it your way. He's filhty traitor who and what else you wish.

[Jewelray]

I think at this point (ep 13) Suzaku is intentionally being portrayed as a hypocrite, as this will play into some realization that he'll have about some philosophical or moral problem (hooray, revelation!). He might already realize that he is being hypocritical (hence the guilt?) but eventually he will either have to leave the army or realize it's ok to be hypocritical sometimes.

But as much as ep13 tries to make Suzaku look bad, it also reminds us that Lelouch is still a manipulative liar, so neither of them gets the upper hand in the morality war.

[Selic]

Originally Posted by Jewelray

I think at this point (ep 13) Suzaku is intentionally being portrayed as a hypocrite, as this will play into some realization that he'll have about some philosophical or moral problem (hooray, revelation!). He might already realize that he is being hypocritical (hence the guilt?) but eventually he will either have to leave the army or realize it's ok to be hypocritical sometimes.

But as much as ep13 tries to make Suzaku look bad, it also reminds us that Lelouch is still a manipulative liar, so neither of them gets the upper hand in the morality war.

Agreed. Prior to this, Suzaku hasn't really done anything he didn't want to. Attacking the JLF in the hoteljack was okay by him because they took hostages. He wasn't part of the assault on the JLF base and went in once it was a matter of cutting their losses and reevaluating the situation. This time, he's had to compromise his beliefs.

[atilim]

What the hell are you're believes word if you compromise, Suzaku is nothing but a hypocrite. Eps 13 just confirms this,

[lordyu]

The only hypocrite I see is Lelouch. I just watched it and he kill as much of the japanese resistance as the army does. I still have tonnes more sympathy for Suzakau than Lelouch. He is a monster that will kill everything . A beast of Chaos.

[Viperus]

What about that "Yes my Lord" , the guy explains that he has to eliminate everybody, and Suzaku obeys anyway.

And what Lelouch did , blowing up the ship , religiously looking , that is a sin , but the guys on the ship would've died anyway without putting a good fight , so he used them as a diversion tactic. That way , at least they didnt die for nothing.

And BTW , Lelouch isnt that bad in piloting Knightmares. Its just that Lancelot has overwelming physical strength and agility. And Cornelia is a pro with lots of experience. Plus he almoast defeted Cornelia , only if Shirely weren't there

[seraphon]

Originally Posted by Majek

uh "Pretty much a confirmed kill" ... without proof is nothing.
edit: But allright. You win.


And i'm saying he looks like someone who has been frocefully confornted with images a dead person and has done something that dead person wouldn't not have approve off. edit: So yes have it your way. He's filhty traitor who and what else you wish.

No need to be sarcastic. I dont win or lose here. I m just giving my opinion and I try to give a logical explanation to my point of view. It s your choice to agree with me or not.

"And i'm saying he looks like someone who has been frocefully confornted with images a dead person and has done something that dead person wouldn't not have approve off." really do mean that he has a really deep guilty conscience and a hero that loves justice shouldnt have a guilty conscience......

[bond4154]

You do realize that the point of this show is to pit together two extremes, in this case, two extremes that you sympathize with (one because he has a motivation for revenge, the other because he's too damn nice for his own good), and then tear them apart with dilemmas? The point being is that they're both supposed to be killers and hypocrites in a war (I honestly wouldn't go as far as to call them as such, though; soldiers in war do not truly count as "killers", and "hypocrite" is too strong a word").

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by bond4154

You do realize that the point of this show is to pit together two extremes, in this case, two extremes that you sympathize with (one because he has a motivation for revenge, the other because he's too damn nice for his own good), and then tear them apart with dilemmas? The point being is that they're both supposed to be killers and hypocrites in a war (I honestly wouldn't go as far as to call them as such, though; soldiers in war do not truly count as "killers", and "hypocrite" is too strong a word").

You mean the scene where Zero and Suzuka face off in blue and red?

But yes, this episode made me realize it better.

As I had already pointed out in the episode discussion, the two are more or less the same. Lelouch has acknowledged that if he wants to attain his dream, he'll have to shed even more blood regardless of whether or not their innocent and CC keeps him on track of that.

For Suzuka, he has yet to reach that stage and its Lloyd and Cecile that helps keep him on track on the decision he has made.

I think at this point (ep 13) Suzaku is intentionally being portrayed as a hypocrite, as this will play into some realization that he'll have about some philosophical or moral problem (hooray, revelation!). He might already realize that he is being hypocritical (hence the guilt?) but eventually he will either have to leave the army or realize it's ok to be hypocritical sometimes.

Or do what Lelouch has done, acknowledge that he's going to have to kill people in order to achieve his goals.

And what Lelouch did , blowing up the ship , religiously looking , that is a sin , but the guys on the ship would've died anyway without putting a good fight , so he used them as a diversion tactic. That way , at least they didnt die for nothing.

As Diethard stated, better to axe off the useless (Or weak) to weaken the enemy. The emperor would be proud of Lelouch.

And BTW , Lelouch isnt that bad in piloting Knightmares. Its just that Lancelot has overwelming physical strength and agility. And Cornelia is a pro with lots of experience. Plus he almoast defeted Cornelia , only if Shirely weren't there

Uh no.

He caught Cornelia off guard before she even activated and then Guren came in and binded her up.

And enough with the "Zero doesn't suck at piloting," if he sucked at piloting he shouldn't even been in a KF. He'd be like Fllay's old boyfriend whose name I have forgotten who couldn't even get Strike to move a couple feet (Murrue at least could fight to some extent in Strike first time). He's basically an average pilot.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Selic

Agreed. Prior to this, Suzaku hasn't really done anything he didn't want to. Attacking the JLF in the hoteljack was okay by him because they took hostages. He wasn't part of the assault on the JLF base and went in once it was a matter of cutting their losses and reevaluating the situation. This time, he's had to compromise his beliefs.

Don't take Lelouch's public claims seriously. He isn't really an ally of justice, he's just out to destroy Britania.

Originally Posted by lordyu

The only hypocrite I see is Lelouch. I just watched it and he kill as much of the japanese resistance as the army does. I still have tonnes more sympathy for Suzakau than Lelouch. He is a monster that will kill everything . A beast of Chaos.

Lelouch lies to people. Suzaku lies to himself.

And Lelouch is neither a monster nor a "beast of chaos". He's a deadly enemy of Britania. He doesn't kill for fun, or to prove he's right (Yes, Suzaku, I'm looking at you... ) And as for serving chaos... If Britania's the "Order", then it's quite legitimate. It's like being a jew in a nazi country. I'm so not going to blame one if he tries to overthrow the government...