Macross Delta the Movie - Passionate Walkūre - Discussion Thread

[charles883]

Just ask, what's your most favorite Macross movie? I bet most of you guys choose Frontier movie 2 or DRYL.

[Tak]

Frontier alone was probably responsible for rejuvenating the ani-song genre, given the last big thing was Evangelion, a decade ago before Frontier was released.

Originally Posted by Random14

The waste of Mirage's character just makes the whole thing even sadder.

Not just Mirage, but they also utterly wasted the potentials of Windermere 'Aerial Knights'. It sounded awesome on paper, and I was excited when I first heard of them, thinking Kawamori must have this figured out since he had the concept a long, long time ago.

The execution on the other hand...

- Tak

[devilo96]

Originally Posted by Tak

When Kawamori created Sheryl, he hit the jackpot.

^i agree with this...if we are talking about chara...sherly still the best and kawamori really do a great job when he make frontier story if kawamori is the one who write delta maybe..hayate love interest gonna change to mikumo and mirage

Originally Posted by Random14

The only possibly bad thing about Sheryl is that she might have set a impossibly high standard for all future Macross idols/characters. Delta being the next series doesn't help. I still have fond memories of the TV series, but I also loved the Frontier movies too.

Too bad short of completely remaking the entire series, its unlikely a Delta movie could have salvaged the series, and by that point it might as well just be a completely different series. The waste of Mirage's character just makes the whole thing even sadder.

Well if delta came out first and then frontier...maybe our opinion will change...and yes i also agree...frontier already set high standard for the next franchise...and kinda sad when delta cant even reach high rating like frontier in imdb at least i love delta song...and the song is the only reason that i keep watching until the end after that i never rewatch delta

Well just like aqurion when evol already good enough...the next project make me cry(logos also have the same problem in story)
Talking (delta and logos) always make me feel that we should get antoher good quality story and chara development like they did before 2k10(gurren lagan,frontier,evol,aquarion,and etc)

[synx]

The biggest improvement of the movie imo is that it didn't make Ernest look like a moron who managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Random14

The only possibly bad thing about Sheryl is that she might have set a impossibly high standard for all future Macross idols/characters. Delta being the next series doesn't help. I still have fond memories of the TV series, but I also loved the Frontier movies too.

Too bad short of completely remaking the entire series, its unlikely a Delta movie could have salvaged the series, and by that point it might as well just be a completely different series. The waste of Mirage's character just makes the whole thing even sadder.

The biggest difference is, at least in Macross, movie versions of all characters are always very different from their TV counterparts (for better or worse is opinionated).

For instance, who in the world liked Minmei prior to the release of Do You Remember Love? I know I didn't mind her in the original SDF-1 but I imagine many who watched it while airing really didn't like her.

For Frontier, I feel like people skip over how Sheryl changed in favor of pointing to all of Ranka's so-called "changes" which were in the TV series in areas no one ever paid attention to because people loved to dislike her in those days. But Sheryl did change, and closer to her novel counterpart if I were to give an example. These changes don't always help characters in their respective series; for example, Sheryl is watered down in the movies; her trademark fire she prided herself on in the TV series is like a sideshow in the movies (only specifically popping up in the 2nd movie's finale, it feels). Although, I could also argue one of her biggest problems in my book was fixed: In the original series, even once she discovered Ranka is in love with Alto, it felt like she still (especially in episode 8) tried to grab all of Alto's attention even though she said she didn't like him. Even though their movie friendship is rushed, in the TV series, it felt more like a rivalry of every sort...

Finally, Delta...
Every character is watered down? Even Freyja? I love her, and her fire is still roughly alive but she's a side character in my opinion because she has very little meaningful scenes unlike her series counterpart. The pacing could be partially at fault? Meanwhile, Hayate is his novel counterpart? He's obsessed with Freyja from day one... and while it's endearing in the TV series, it's a little creepy in the movie if you didn't watch Delta's TV series.

In closing, neither version of something in any form of media is superior to the other. Hell, I'm watching Banana Fish right now and all I hear are complaints because bits of the manga are chopped from it (specifically unnecessary exposition, mind you) and its pacing issues; meanwhile, the manga had its own pacing issues (oh boy does it, you're telling me a year passes? everything happens seemingly all at once!) and backgrounds for side characters is an afterthought in the manga... in general. So I'd argue, if you wanna watch an anime because you don't have time for manga (like me), then do; but do check out the other forms of the story because sometimes it can do wonders...

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

For Frontier, I feel like people skip over how Sheryl changed in favor of pointing to all of Ranka's so-called "changes" which were in the TV series in areas no one ever paid attention to because people loved to dislike her in those days. But Sheryl did change, and closer to her novel counterpart if I were to give an example. These changes don't always help characters in their respective series; for example, Sheryl is watered down in the movies; her trademark fire she prided herself on in the TV series is like a sideshow in the movies (only specifically popping up in the 2nd movie's finale, it feels). Although, I could also argue one of her biggest problems in my book was fixed: In the original series, even once she discovered Ranka is in love with Alto, it felt like she still (especially in episode 8) tried to grab all of Alto's attention even though she said she didn't like him. Even though their movie friendship is rushed, in the TV series, it felt more like a rivalry of every sort...

She was very tsundere towards Alto (and him towards her. ), but it was pretty clear that she was at best trying to deceive herself about her growing attraction towards him. It was only in episode 11 when she clearly admitted it to herself, when thanking Alto for coming on her journey to Gallia IV with her. You can see the moment pretty clearly.

After that it clearly was a rivalry, but one tempered with their mutual friendship.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

She was very tsundere towards Alto (and him towards her. ), but it was pretty clear that she was at best trying to deceive herself about her growing attraction towards him. It was only in episode 11 when she clearly admitted it to herself, when thanking Alto for coming on her journey to Gallia IV with her. You can see the moment pretty clearly.

After that it clearly was a rivalry, but one tempered with their mutual friendship.

Yes, I know.
However, as I said, there are scenes and even whole episodes (like I said, episode 8) wherein Sheryl is straight up stealing all of the spotlight for herself with Alto while being friendly with Ranka despite semi-knowing Ranka's feelings for Alto at this point. And ironically, the writers are self-aware of their choice because Nanase points it out in episode 8 (again, prior to episode 11): Sheryl is an outsider like Ranka who knows nothing about their world and bursts in and decides to act like a primadona.

The biggest issue I have in her character is like all characters in Frontier: Their personalities or motivations change by episode. For instance, you're pointing towards episode 11 as a defense, but do remember earlier in the episode wherein Sheryl discovers Ranka is planning on inviting Alto to her concert with front row tickets for his birthday. Even though Ranka planned for his birthday in advance (a little bit) and Sheryl herself had never once asked him or his friends when his birthday is, she once again decided to try and steal the spotlight last minute.

Like I said, sometimes it felt like a rivalry of all forms: Music and love.

Then again, nowadays in media, this is a common issue when more than one writer does a series... The movies cleaned up all of those issues and solidified Sheryl's character. I like her more in the movies because she didn't actively steal the spotlight for romantic reasons, she stole it simply for being herself. And I can respect those types of characters.

Anyway, before we go really off-topic on this in the wrong thread, I only brought it up because I noticed this similarity in Delta's movie... Hayate is really very different from his TV persona.

[charles883]

The biggest improvement of the movie imo is that it didn't make Ernest look like a moron who managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Like I says NUNS are actually more heroic ,competent , A LOT less trigger happy on using illegal WMD and less corrupt(they still perform illegal operation on stealing Star Singer DNA) than series version as movie shows competent leader and commander able to win the war in shorter time and only resort WMD as absolute last resort, unlike corrupt, incompetent commander in the series(who some people in forum support him) who VERY trigger happy on using illegal WMD to win war (not successfully) without care of future implication and consequences and innocent casualty.

By the way you guys still havent give your ranking on your Macross movie?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by charles883

By the way you guys still havent give your ranking on your Macross movie?

Um, I don't wanna...
Seriously, the only reason I'd ever give it a higher rating is because I know what's going on in the movie thanks to the TV series. But as a standalone movie, it's bad... really, really bad.

[charles883]

To me Macross Delta still better than most anime movie this year. Even better than SAO movie.

Especially Keith vs Messer dogfight in te movie. I mean do you agree that its one of the best dogfight scene in entire Macross franchise?

(by the way, what do you think my review?)

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by charles883

To me Macross Delta still better than most anime movie this year. Even better than SAO movie.

No.
The SAO movie wins for its pacing alone.

And seriously, comparing Delta's movie to anything original this year is... kind of pathetic really. This is a retelling, not an original movie; and it's not a very solid retelling either. So sorry, but I'm not in your boat at all.

Originally Posted by charles883

Especially Keith vs Messer dogfight in te movie. I mean do you agree that its one of the best dogfight scene in entire Macross franchise?

(by the way, what do you think my review?)

I said back in the TV series' threads (not that anyone paid attention) that I liked the new dogfights because it's in the sky now (not in space). However, I'll add here I liked Hayate vs. Keith in the TV series over added Messar vs. Keith in the movie.

Mainly because the rivalry is less confusing in the TV series: Messar is gunned down and Hayate inherits his fighter because his own is destroyed, and Keith doesn't believe he's worthy of it. In the movie, Mirage and Hayate run across his fighter afterward and decide Hayate will use it. Period. There's no build for Messar at all in the movies aside from his Var syndrome flashback and so there's no real reason for anyone (save for Kaname) to be saddened for his death. He has two scenes with anyone other than Kaname and it's never really of importance to his character.

Again, if you were someone who had NOT seen Delta, this movie would confuse you even more than watching the Plus movie by itself.

[Tak]

Yes, the movie had faster pacing, the movie had better animation and the movie had new footage. Nonetheless, the Windermere boys still failed to graduate from being mere satires.

My biggest gripe about Delta aside from the wasted potentials of Mirage (goddess bless her soul), is the complete and utter destruction of the concept revolving Windermere. Here I am, fully expecting Super Dimension Air Cavalry and/or Escaflowne 2.0, except what I got were mere caricatures, and the movie did not fix this problem.

You know what needs a proper sequel? Escaflowne. Yeah.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

You know what needs a proper sequel? Escaflowne. Yeah.

- Tak

The movie or TV series?

Because I didn't mind the movie's ending. However, the TV series' ending... I'd love more on it.

[Tak]

The movie's ending is a condensed version of the TV's ending. Though I'd much rather they ended up staying on Gaia as per official ending in the novels.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

I believe at this point we should only be glad it's only Macross franchises gaining movies. If the original Aquarion had a retelling movie, I'd be brain dead from trying to connect dots on who loves who again because really, I'd forgotten how ridiculous the original series was. And if EVOL had a retelling movie, I believe it'd be a little smoother since... less exposition is necessary because it improved on story bits from the original series and had less ridiculous plot devices. (Again, who is who and who is in love with who is all a big confusing mess in the original series; EVOL had it clearer...) And also, god have mercy if he ever tried a retelling of Logos......

[charles883]

SAO movie is huge mess with very dumb plot. I mean stealing memory, needless drama and Kirito being mary sue again(No as much as Tatsuya though).

Sorry for off topic, built I prefer movie over series as Messer show even more awesome as he willing to sacrifice his life to protect Kaname and actually evade evadable attack. That scene makes me more hot blooded and exciting than Hayate vs Keith and more realistic. I mean Hayate beat Keith despite few month of training? Awesome, yet unrealistic. Also get to see Battleroid mode battle Keith vs Messer for the first time. Also Messer VF-31.STILL VF-31, which still have same control setting and there no other VF left in ship the infiltrate..

Also Roid move up his plan really fast as there no Gremia interfere his plan. Also that time there no time to mourn as Roid plan move ahead of schedule and NUNS which actually more competent decide end the war ASAP and actually allow competent Commander and Veteran led attack like Ernest and war still going. Its after war, they can finally able to mourn Messer. And Mirage are more likeable to me in movie and actually better pilot than series version

What do you think of Armored pack and Mirage Draken 3?
Is Escaflowne ending cliffhangar as there no hint of sequal for that series yet.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by charles883

SAO movie is huge mess with very dumb plot. I mean stealing memory, needless drama and Kirito being mary sue again(No as much as Tatsuya though).

*sigh*
Again, comparing it with a retelling movie is not helping your argument at all, all it's doing is pissing me off. Nothing in SAO's movie is a retelling of its prior season 2 so your point is again useless.

And finally, it's plot being simplistic and/or ridiculous had nothing to do with its pacing. I never once during watching the SAO movie had to pause and rehash an old episode to reaffirm plot points in its movie like I did during Delta's movie. This comparison is ridiculous.

Now if you brought up a Hibike! Euphonium movie, it'd be a different conversation...

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I believe at this point we should only be glad it's only Macross franchises gaining movies. If the original Aquarion had a retelling movie, I'd be brain dead from trying to connect dots on who loves who again because really, I'd forgotten how ridiculous the original series was. And if EVOL had a retelling movie, I believe it'd be a little smoother since... less exposition is necessary because it improved on story bits from the original series and had less ridiculous plot devices. (Again, who is who and who is in love with who is all a big confusing mess in the original series; EVOL had it clearer...) And also, god have mercy if he ever tried a retelling of Logos......

I am actually surprised Aquarion had that many seasons. Must been pretty popular.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

I am actually surprised Aquarion had that many seasons. Must been pretty popular.

- Tak

In Japan, more than likely, but not overseas.

I only discovered the original series thanks to my ex-boyfriend's obsession with it. However, I didn't discover EVOL till literally episode 1 was released on Nyaa. And I'll be honest, I began it thinking "will I need to rehash all of the first series?" to discover, "nope; it's straightforward with a new cast." Later on, upon Logos' announcement trailer, I noticed its new animation and decided I'd skip on Logos altogether.

In Japan, Aquarion as a whole isn't really "popular" it's more of a backup series for Kawamori to distance himself from his main franchise, Macross, for a bit. Sometimes though, like with EVOL, it feels like he gives his more refined ideas to Aquarion than Macross. And if you ever sit down and really think about it, which series do you think Kawamori loves more? Or which one does he love working on more? I don't know the answer but if you asked me during the original Aquarion or EVOL, I'd say both franchises... but nowadays... I think he's like most of us are in the media industry: We've run aground for original ideas and are burnt out on enthusiasm for our projects so we plop crap on the timeline like it'll make sense...

[Tak]

The concept of being obsessed over Aquarion is... erm...

Obviously not all of Kawamori's 'original' work gained traction. Some however, were pretty good.

For example, Eureka 7, Mouretsu Pirates.

Then you have Nobunaga the Fool... WTF was that?

- Tak