Re:Zero - Episode 18 Discussion / Poll

[xeviouses]

Wow, walls of text against walls of text, last time I saw this it was the Macross Frontier shipping wars.


Anyway Subaru's mental health hasn't been good since his first death. There are moments of clarity but its clear he's just pretending, with Emilia as his sort of mental anchor.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I'm sorry but that's actually the best place for him to be. If something happens in the capital he gains this information in first person with all the details and can do something about it with his Return by Death ability. Or you think facing Elsa or giant monster dogs are places for a normal, talent-less human to be? That was the reason why he wanted to go there just in case Emilia would have to face another life or death situation and also to try and do something important in his life. He was just too arrogant by assuming he could do that all by himself and self-proclaiming Emilia's Knight without even be able to prove/explain his skills to everyone else.

Actually that's faulty logic, because no one besides Subaru himself knows that he has that power. From everyone else's perspective he is a normal human that is trying to accomplish things way over his head. He has died multiple times doing things that are beyond his power, so from the perspective of someone that cares about him, then yes, he shouldn't be there.

You know where the main flaw in you argument is? You want Rem to be with Subaru because she did so much for him, yet Subaru did the same thing towards Emilia and suddenly you disagree with the idea about them being together.

As far as what Subaru has done for people, Rem does not lose to Emilia in that regard. I give Subaru full credit for saving Emilia once. He's saved Rem at least once (twice if you count the mabeasts) and he's changed her whole outlook on life through his actions. He's done nothing of the sort for Emilia.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Demi.

~snip~

Dude, drop it, we dont need another mass moderation.

Move on.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Actually that's faulty logic, because no one besides Subaru himself knows that he has that power. From everyone else's perspective he is a normal human that is trying to accomplish things way over his head. He has died multiple times doing things that are beyond his power, so from the perspective of someone that cares about him, then yes, he shouldn't be there.

See, now you know why Emilia pushed him away
And i give up, i already gave you tons of arguments in my previous comments as to why Emilia became Subaru's waifu and why it's actually logical for him to chose her over Rem. People are already getting annoyed with this discussion going on in circles so i will also stop

[darkinfinity]

Subaru finally got himself together, thanks to Re, this anime really is doing good so far, I think it will get more interesting later on

also, did anyone notice this too?


the VA combo can sometimes be scary...

[Triple_R]

For those of us who now have a difficult time accepting Subaru/Emilia, it's not just everything Rem has done for Subaru, thought that is of course a factor. It's not even just the general lack of screen-time we've had for Emilia in this current arc and the one before it. It's also that Subaru and Emilia's last three private meetings have all been far from pleasant.

The first was Emilia telling Subaru not to follow her to that big Royal Selection meeting, and Subaru trying to talk her into letting him go with her. Whatever you think of this situation, and whichever character you most agree with here, it's still definitely true that this isn't exactly a scene of flowery romance. It shows real distrust between Emilia and Subaru - It shows Subaru not trusting that Emilia can handle herself, and Emilia not trusting that Subaru can behave himself. There's some logical basis to the lack of trust for both of these characters, but a young flowering love should arguably overcome these trust issues. For very sharp contrast, consider how Rem is apparently believing Subaru's tales of horrors and threats in spite of how she has nothing but his word to go on.

The second last Subaru/Emilia meeting was the big fallout between them. If I remember correctly, many viewers found this painful to watch. It certainly didn't strike me as a healthy romance, or even a healthy friendship. Neither character came off well here. Subaru came off as overly full of himself, and filled with anger and frustration and rage. Emilia came off as someone who, again, can't bring herself to trust Subaru. There's a certain standoffish element to the Subaru/Emilia relationship that can be unpleasant to watch. In other words, Emilia doesn't seem willing to take that leap of faith in order to truly understand Subaru. It's kinda like she's keeping him at an arm's distance.

The last Subaru/Emilia meeting was in Episode 17, the episode before this one. During this meeting, Subaru said some absolutely vicious and nasty things to Emilia. If Subaru loves Emilia so much then why is he being so verbally vicious to her? Off the top of my head, I honestly can't think of any other anime romance where one side verbally attacked/insulted the other to this very harsh degree. Is this supposed to inspire confidence? It certainly doesn't for me.

So let's pretend that Rem doesn't even exist - A very sad state of affairs, I know, but please play along here - Even if Rem didn't exist, I would hardly find Subaru and Emilia compelling right now. Heck, Subaru and Emilia come across as a relationship on the rocks. They come across as a harsh break-up in progress, like a train crash being displayed in slow motion. I honestly think it would be very normal for a person in Subaru's position to have his love for Emilia grow cold after these last three encounters. And that's without even considering Rem at all!

But if you do contrast this with where the Subaru/Rem relationship currently stands... it's like total night and day! I have to be frank - I'm absolutely amazed that some people don't seem to get/accept why some of us are not pleased with Subaru saying "I love Emilia" to Rem at this juncture in the story.

I think Tappei Nagatsuki is a generally good writer with some real talent, and it's even possible that we're meant to dislike Subaru's romantic choices. But at a basic viewer satisfaction level, he's clearly playing with fire here. It's honestly hard to imagine a believable narrative situation that would be any worst for the presumptive main pairing than what we have right here, right now in Re:Zero. (By "believable narrative situation", I mean anything short of something outlandishly bad, like showing scenes of Emilia eating live kittens whole, and then have Subaru comment on how cute it is )

I still like Emilia. And I still like Subaru. But the SubaruEmilia relationship itself leaves a lot to be desired at this point. I'm sorry guys, but it really does. At the same time, the SubaruRem relationship is absolutely beautiful, hurt only by Subaru's romantic choices.

Is it any wonder that demi, Akuma Kousaka, myself and some others feel the way we do about this show's recent romantic developments?

To be fair, SubaruEmilia did get off to an excellent start, and it had its moments in the 2nd arc. But that's many episodes ago now, and what's happened since these moments leaves a lot to be desired. And the romance side of a story is open to criticism and discussion just as much as any other side of a story is.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Subaru said some absolutely vicious and nasty things to Emilia. If Subaru loves Emilia so much then why is he being so verbally vicious to her?

Wait, are there still people who are yet to realise that those things are stuff he yelled to himself?

and funny enough the first thing Emilia mentioned is why he's crying like that. She cared about him during his entire tirade to himself. He was on the verge of breaking just then, and later wanted to have his last heroic moment not knowing that it will bring further catastrophe.

[Seafoam]

At the expense of continuing this darn discussion, please note that this series is not short. At all. I would assume that discussing the length of the source is a spoiler, so I guess I'll just say there's plenty of time to go?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by jeroz

Wait, are there still people who are yet to realise that those things are stuff he yelled to himself?

His lips were moving during that rant, and his voice was loud. And Emilia was right next to him. How could she not have heard him? His sentences were clearly directed towards Emilia, and she appeared to be reacting to them.

There's every indication in this scene that Subaru is ranting at Emilia.

and funny enough the first thing Emilia mentioned is why he's crying like that.

It does speak well of her that she focused more on his crying than she did on his very harsh words. I'll certainly give her that much, yes.

On the other hand, she could have just trusted the guy and ran away.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

On the other hand, she could have just trusted the guy and ran away.

Now, that doesn't really seem all that reasonable, when he can't even produce a good explanation for it, now does it?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Now, that doesn't really seem all that reasonable, when he can't even produce a good explanation for it, now does it?

He was right about how the villagers were being threatened in the 2nd arc. There's reason to think that Subaru knows/figures out things that other people don't.

Subaru has also helped Emilia out in the past, and Emilia should be able to realize that Subaru is fond of her at least, so she should think that Subaru isn't trying to trick her here. She could have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, like what Rem is doing throughout this entire 3rd arc...

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I have to be frank - I'm absolutely amazed that some people don't seem to get/accept why some of us are not pleased with Subaru saying "I love Emilia" to Rem at this juncture in the story.

Welcome to the internet where nobody gives enough respect and consideration to the other party and everybody refuses to discuss on an equal standing, because acknowledging the other party's point obviously means your own point must be wrong.

[Sayaka Rei]

I think is quite obvious that Emilia isn't in love with Subaru at this moment, but it's equally clear that she care for him a lot. On the other hand I think there are also several reasons for Subaru to loves her. I can't see how the disagreements that we have between the two may have changed what Subaru thinks or feels for her. Otherwise what he has suffered from Rem should block him forever in the relationship with her. Indeed I think that is the love of Subaru that make him react in a rude/agitated way on those occasions with Emilia. I think their relationship is anything but simple and obvious, and for this reason interesting, a sort of "work in progress" that can take many paths but now is building a solid foundation, one that needs a maturation of both. This arc 3 is in fact focusing on the Subaru growth. Then there's the rest of the story.

[Proto]

I think the discussion for the last few pages can be summarized as:

Yes, it would be more rational for Subaru to go with Rem.

No, love is not rational.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

His lips were moving during that rant, and his voice was loud. And Emilia was right next to him. How could she not have heard him? His sentences were clearly directed towards Emilia, and she appeared to be reacting to them.

There's every indication in this scene that Subaru is ranting at Emilia.




It does speak well of her that she focused more on his crying than she did on his very harsh words. I'll certainly give her that much, yes.

On the other hand, she could have just trusted the guy and ran away.

Yes his lips were but nothing coming out of made any sense to be directed at Emilia nor did it make sense to be crying about if that is how he really felt about her. Instead seem like he was talking to mirror, where every line dialogue perfectly described his situation.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He was right about how the villagers were being threatened in the 2nd arc. There's reason to think that Subaru knows/figures out things that other people don't.

Subaru has also helped Emilia out in the past, and Emilia should be able to realize that Subaru is fond of her at least, so she should think that Subaru isn't trying to trick her here. She could have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt. You know, like what Rem is doing throughout this entire 3rd arc...

It's not issue of being trick here that is problem, it's fact that he had no proof in combination of already breaking her trust prior to this and clearly not being right state of mind to properly discuss the situation. His creditably was at a all time low. At least in the 2nd arc he was actually cursed and brought back something tangible to reflect that was calm about it. The whole thing was more or less go the way it did with Crusch and Subaru had it nobody believeing what he said at that point.

Originally Posted by Proto

I think the discussion for the last few pages can be summarized as:

Yes, it would be more rational for Subaru to go with Rem.

No, love is not rational.

Even then you can argue about the rationality of her love, when you consider that a lot of is due to idolization rather than how much she actually knows him. In the end love isn't a binary number that can be quantified or something you can put on a scale, it's more the impact that person has on you at that time..

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Yes his lips were but nothing coming out of made any sense to be directed at Emilia nor did it make sense to be crying about if that is how he really felt about her. Instead seem like he was talking to mirror, where every line dialogue perfectly described his situation.

He directed an obsessive tirade at her and said she owes him more than she could possibly know

Originally Posted by Applehell

It's not issue of being trick here that is problem, it's fact that he had no proof in combination of already breaking her trust prior to this and clearly not being right state of mind to properly discuss the situation. His creditably was at a all time low. At least in the 2nd arc he was actually cursed and brought back something tangible to reflect that was calm about it. The whole thing was more or less go the way it did with Crusch and Subaru had it nobody believeing what he said at that point.

This paragraph only further diminishes Emilia-->Subaru

The Subaru x Emilia fans are going to enjoy Sound! Euphonium season 2

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Proto

I think the discussion for the last few pages can be summarized as:

"If the protagonist doesn't pick the girl of my choice we riot"

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

He directed an obsessive tirade at her and said she owes him more than she could possibly know

This paragraph only further diminishes Emilia-->Subaru

The Subaru x Emilia fans are going to enjoy Sound! Euphonium season 2

Both done under duress and his innermost desire to be at least recongized by the person he wanted understand him the most. All which are gone over in this episode. Subaru simply failed to commuicate his feelings properly.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Subaru has also helped Emilia out in the past, and Emilia should be able to realize that Subaru is fond of her at least, so she should think that Subaru isn't trying to trick her here. She could have chosen to give him the benefit of the doubt.

She did. Many times. The guy can't even really explain where he came from, for God's sake... And he broke that trust, inequivocally - and then, didn't even manage to explain himself properly. That's the crux of the problem, right there.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Both done under duress and his innermost desire to be at least recongized by the person he wanted understand him the most. All which are gone over in this episode. Subaru simply failed to commuicate his feelings properly.

Stop sinking Emilia x Subaru