Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

No he is pointing a flaw in your logic.

No, he got my logic wrong. I didn't say this guy's evil because he comes from Earth.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The logic here is rock solid . We see the corruption through the entirety of the Windermere military and royal family. While all we've seen is one corrupt official. There's nothing more than speculation that the NUNs are united on this subject and more likely with such a large organization that they aren't.

What are you even watching?
Windermere has:
1 dead king motivated by revenge on his and his country's ~besmirched honor~
1 young prince singing himself to an early grave because he wants daddy and big brother to love him
1 noble knight motivated by revenge and his brotherly feelings and whatnot (and his team of mascots and redshirts)
1 chancellor of dubious motives who is, by the way, most likely the one who came up with the whole Glorious Protoculture idea way back

So that's one potentially corrupt guy so far.

Meanwhile, the NUNS guy wasn't a "corrupt official", he was there on a mission, and folded away when he accomplished it. He said "oh, so this is what the scientists talked about" - very much implying that there's in fact an actual department that is very much aware of what's going on and not very interested in stopping it for the time being.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

The cluster was perfectly fine until one side decided to use brainwashing and terrorism to get their hold over the cluster. Yay slavery.

Technically, the cluster was perfectly fine until Windermere decided to go independent and somehow ended up with a huge smoking hole in its surface - that looks more and more like the hole the Ragna Protoculture ruins left behind, courtesy of, oh... NUNS.

[magnuskn]

So, now you guys deny that mind-control is a form of slavery?

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, now you guys deny that mind-control is a form of slavery?

I don't think that is what Kuromitsu was saying though?

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, he got my logic wrong. I didn't say this guy's evil because he comes from Earth.

Your own words.

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

The Terrans are corrupted. You saw it yourself in this episode. The asshat from NUNS blew up the ruins just to get data and then ran away. He never cared about Ragna or Windermere or whatever. I bet NUNS are working together with Epsilon in the shadows.

Gramia knows Earth is full of assholes so they had to do this to get them out of the cluster. Of course now that Roid took command things might take a turn for the worse, as Roid is probably being manipulated by NUNS and Epsilon, who are the actual bad guys.

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

I don't think that is what Kuromitsu was saying though?

It is assigning blame of Windermere's own actions of enslaving the cluster as NUNS fault. That is saying Windermereans are children that can't take responsibility for their own actions.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

So, now you guys deny that mind-control is a form of slavery?

*sigh* There's just no getting through to you, is there. It's like you stubbornly keep shutting out every piece of worldbuilding and information that may complicate the situation further than "Windermere did a bad thing and are bad".

Hm, maybe if I throw myself off the roof singing "Things are rarely black and white ♫ You don't need to agree with or even appreciate a side in a conflict ♪ in order to understand and analyze their motivations ♫ In fiction it's possible ♫ Also this is Macross ♪ that tends to build its messages on reaching out and understanding each other ♫" at the top of my lungs maybe my thoughts will reach you! RunPika~~!

Windermere having done bad things doesn't mean that NUNS didn't do a bad thing, and couldn't have done other bad things that might have influenced Windermere to do bad things.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Your own words.

Read it again, I never said this guy is evil becomes he comes from Earth.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Read it again, I never said this guy is evil becomes he comes from Earth.

You said all Terrans are corrupt and assholes and you agree with Gramia driving them out of the cluster. Actually he was aiming for genocide and enslavement.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

You said all Terrans are corrupt and assholes

I'm obviously talking about NUNS from Earth, not Earthlings in general.

and you agree with Gramia driving them out of the cluster.

No, but I understand why he did it. Understanding and agreeing aren't the same thing.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I'm obviously talking about NUNS from Earth, not Earthlings in genaral.

No you didn't. But you are now backtracking due to how embarrassing your statement is.

No, but I understand why he did it. Understanding and agreeing aren't the same thing.

Except the worlds in the Brisingr cluster are independent world governments and military forces that had nothing to do with what happened to Windermere.

From Gramia and Windermere nobility perspective they should be the rulers of the galaxy not Terrans. Terrans never claimed to be rulers or heirs of the Protoculture what they did was spread out so that the species could survive. They uplifted Sub-Protoculture races that made treaty with them to give them some fighting chance. Miclone races are the minority in the galaxy. There are approximately 2000 Zentradi main fleets with an average personnel of 7.5 billion troops per main fleet. The Brisinger cluster has the largest concentration of known Miclone races at 8 billion.

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

Windermere having done bad things doesn't mean that NUNS didn't do a bad thing, and couldn't have done other bad things that might have influenced Windermere to do bad things.

So you are saying it is all NUNS fault why Windermere do bad things cause they are children that can't be held accountable for their actions.

AKA assigning blame.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

No, but I understand why he did it. Understanding and agreeing aren't the same thing.

Try that answer on some hot button topic from RL and you'll soon see that this little semantics game doesn't work out too well.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

No you didn't. But you are now backtracking due to how embarrassing your statement is.

So now you can read my mind. That attitude sure helps your argument.

Except the worlds in the Brisingr cluster are independent world governments and military forces that had nothing to do with what happened to Windermere.

Sure they are independent. That's why NUNS just blew up their ruins, killing civilians in the process, without giving a damn about what Ragna's own government might have to say about it. That sure screams independent.

[Father Hentai]

You have in every race some who seek power and this includes humans as well. There are no exceptions.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sure they are independent. That's why NUNS just blew up their ruins, killing civilians in the process, without giving a damn about what Ragna's own government might have to say about it. That sure screams independent.

Creator Shoji Kawamori has stated (interview from Otona Anime magazine #9) the New U.N. is a newly organized and decentralized government of the human colony fleets and colony worlds. Kawamori states that Earth is no longer able to directly control the hundreds of colony world and fleets given the vast interstellar distances involved. This change in government was not a coup or revolution, but a realigning of the galaxy at large. Thus U.N. colonies and fleets became self-governing but belong to the New United Nations as members.

http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ionWeapons.php

Use Restrictions After the Interstellar War
In the "Galaxy Treaty", which was concluded after the interstellar war, the operation of reaction weapons was restricted. Thereafter, as a general rule, reaction weapons were not used in normal combat.

Requirements Under the Galactic Treaty
Due to the Galaxy Treaty, the permission of the New Unified Government on the Earth was needed in order to use reaction weapons. However, under the New Unified Charter's exception clauses, if the administrative head authorizes it, reaction weapons could be used in emigrant fleets.

[Kazu-kun]

Use Restrictions After the Interstellar War
In the "Galaxy Treaty", which was concluded after the interstellar war, the operation of reaction weapons was restricted. Thereafter, as a general rule, reaction weapons were not used in normal combat.

Requirements Under the Galactic Treaty
Due to the Galaxy Treaty, the permission of the New Unified Government on the Earth was needed in order to use reaction weapons. However, under the New Unified Charter's exception clauses, if the administrative head authorizes it, reaction weapons could be used in emigrant fleets.

Ragna isn't an emigrant fleet. It's a planet, and I don't think NUNS has the right to blow up stuff there without authorization from the local government. Doing this on their own shows they don't give a damn about the planet's independence.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Ragna isn't an emigrant fleet. It's a planet, and I don't think NUNS has the right to blow up stuff there without authorization of the local government. Doing this on their own shows they don't give a damn about the planet's independence.

And what is Barette City?

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by AkitoW013

And what is Barette City?

They didn't target Barette City, they went for the Protoculture's ruins which have been on Ragna for at least 500,000 years.... Not to mention it's connected to Ragna's core.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Tak

No, it means if NUN wants Chaos to go East, Chaos wouldn't go West. Chaos is an independent entity from the NUN as long as they fit within the framework of the NUN and the former's interests do not conflict with the NUN. Ragna hired Chaos for an extra measure of security, and this was permitted because it did not conflict with NUN interests. Once NUNs decided it should detonate a bomb beneth the ocean, they certainly expected Chaos to comply and GTFO.

When SMS turned against the NUN in Frontier, they've actually committed treason, this was acknowledged by Jeffrey.

- Tak

Can you give me your source?

ケイオス
フォールド波による通信／情報、ならびにフォールド航法事業のベンチャーとしてスタートし、この10年ほど で急速に規模を拡大。情報・芸能部門の戦術音楽ユニット「ワルキューレ」や、共同任務にあたるΔ小隊を擁す る星間複合企業体。ハヤテたちが所属するラグナ支部では、マクロス・エリシオンを母艦とする。

Official description of Chaos and none of what you stated is there. Windermerians called them NUN's Dogs rather than NUN. So no, they are an independent group of people with operates with NUN approval and the autonomous regions' approval for what we've seen. Of course they'll have contact with the NUN but it doesn't mean they are owned or ordered by them. No more than any private company can be ordered by a specific country government or administration.

They. Are. Not. NUN. Stop overlapping them, please.

Protagonists: Chaos.
Antagonists: Central office NUN, Windermere (Epsilon?).

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Ragna isn't an emigrant fleet. It's a planet, and I don't think NUNS has the right to blow up stuff there without authorization of the local government. Doing this on their own shows they don't give a damn about the planet's independence.

A planet settled by an emigration fleet.
http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...rantFleets.php

Related Matter: The Relationship Between The Earth And The Fleets
The Super Long Range Emigrant Fleets exist like local self-governing bodies that were put under the jurisdiction of the Earth Unified Government. However, since the fleets are sailing a great distance from Earth and the main Emigrant Planets, and in addition to the possibility that the commands of the Unified Government and armed forces headquarters not being carried out by the fleets, the Unified Government worried that the Emigrant Fleets would also revolt against the Earth. Because of this, such things as "chaperons" were sent from the Unified Government.

Caption: One of the reasons why the high performance aircraft - such as the VF-19-, weren't deployed in large quantities, is that the Earth feared an insurrection by the Emigrant Fleets.

Right: Leon Mishima
The Presidential Chief-of-Staff sent to the Macross Frontier Fleet from the Earth New Unified Forces.

Emigration Fleet's Under The Control Of Businesses
The initial Super Long Range Emigration was carried out under the leadership of the Unified Government, and private level Emigrant Ships appear to have remained at short range and small scale emigration. As the Mankind Seeding Project progressed, the number of businesses that invested in Research Fleets increased (the L.A.I. Co. is famous for being presumed to be the special sponsor of the 117th Research Fleet that used the SDFN-04 General Bruno J. Global as its flagship). Eventually, even Super Long Range Emigrant Fleets were created by the project planning of large companies. One example of that is the General Galaxy company's Macross Galaxy Fleet. The Macross Galaxy Fleet was the 21st New Macross Class and the 51st Super Long Range Emigrant Fleet, and even though it was put under the jurisdiction of the Unified Government, the General Galaxy company closely participated in the fleet administration, and the fleet's leadership initiated the Galaxy Control Plan (it is unclear whether that was the arbitrary decision of one section of the company, or the speculation of the entire corporation).

Caption: The influence of the L.A.I. company in the Macross Frontier Fleet is strong, and this same company has connections with Chief-of-Staff Mishima.

Caption: The implants in the Galaxy Fleet depend on the technological strength of General Galaxy.

The Politics And Military Affairs Of A Super Long Range Emigrant Fleet
Although the Emigrant Fleet is put under the supervision of the Earth Unified Government, it is impossible for the Unified Government to take direct charge of the civil-military fleet, due to factors such as the distance. Therefore, there is a degree of autonomy in the fleets, and discretionary power is given to the Unified Forces that guards the fleet. In addition, such things as the polity and the civil-military power balance differ according to the fleet and are not fixed.

Caption: In the Emigrant Fleets as well as Earth, which are basically democratic capitalist societies, economic activity is also vigorous. Arbitrary military governments are not known.

Politics
Besides the administrative body that's placed into each fleet, parliaments are often also established. According to each fleet, the President or Mayor is the head of the government and is superior to the three powers of government (legislative, executive and judicial), and the Unified Forces might be placed under their command.

Right: Howard Glass
With the right to decide on super long range folds, the president interacts with the parliament.

Military Affairs
The accompanying escorting Unified Forces fleet is able to deal with sudden enemy attacks with independent decisions. In addition to systematic military movements needing the authorization of such entities as the fleet's government and parliament, there are also cases where priority is given to the orders of the Earth Unified Forces Headquarters.

Right: Maximilian Jiinasu
The head of the Macross 7 Fleet. The scale of the armed forces is large compared to the fleet's population.

Context.

Macross Frontier's President Howard Glass was commander in chief of the Frontier NUNS. Colonel Maximilian Jenius was Earth UN Forces fleet commander. Colonel Burton of Project M once ordered Basara to go to Macross 7's Earth UN Forces HQ for the Jamming Birds training. Max was in charge of the military while Milia being elected Mayor is in charge of civilian government.

Some fleets and emigrant worlds corporations have a greater say like Macross Galaxy.

According Shoji Kawamori interview with Forbes Chaos is more like Google as a megacorp.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

A planet settled by an emigration fleet.

Ragna isn't a planet settled by an emigration fleet. It had intelligent people and its own government before the fleet got there.