Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei novels have been licensed by Yen Press

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by IceHism

You could also take it as a satire of japanese culture which i do sometimes. There were a lot of funny parts in MKnR to me since i understood the context of it.

Really? Like what? All that comes to mind is the bloomers from the age of immorality.

[ProxyAccount]

Indeed, you can see the whole issue of high school entrance exams deciding someone's path in life. Then there's talent vs. equal distribution. Not to mention the seniority system....

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ProxyAccount

Indeed, you can see the whole issue of high school entrance exams deciding someone's path in life. Then there's talent vs. equal distribution. Not to mention the seniority system....

Oh those are certainly traits of Asian society, certainly. But I was more specifically asking for the parts that inspired humor in Icehism. There's nothing funny about high school entrance exams.


On the original argument for the usage of honorifics though, it occurred to me while re-reading Vamp!, wouldn't the stance that [honorifics be preserved in order to convey a sense of the foreign to English readers] also condemn every manga and LN that takes place in a foreign country, like Germany, the US, or China? The vast majority of those have characters that speak flawless Japanese, Japanese honorifics included. (what comes to mind: Akatsuki no Yona, Spice and Wolf, Maoyuu, Eyeshield 21, Madan no Ou Vanadis, Knights and Magic, Gankutsuou....)

[ProxyAccount]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Oh those are certainly traits of Asian society, certainly. But I was more specifically asking for the parts that inspired humor in Icehism. There's nothing funny about high school entrance exams.

It's perhaps a metaphor or commentary on how people are prejudged on the basis of academic evaluations that don't reveal what people can accomplish... or their character. It's ironic that a Strategic class magician is a 2nd Course student. I find humor in it, but that's me.

On the original argument for the usage of honorifics though, it occurred to me while re-reading Vamp!, wouldn't the stance that [honorifics be preserved in order to convey a sense of the foreign to English readers] also condemn every manga and LN that takes place in a foreign country, like Germany, the US, or China? The vast majority of those have characters that speak flawless Japanese, Japanese honorifics included. (what comes to mind: Akatsuki no Yona, Spice and Wolf, Maoyuu, Eyeshield 21, Madan no Ou Vanadis, Knights and Magic, Gankutsuou....)

Japanese writers often projecting Japanese sensibilities and stereotypes upon non-Japanese characters. Even though the characters aren't Japanese, in order to understand the writer's intent, you might still have to understand the writer's cultural perspective. As to the characters, it can get murky because foreign readers don't necessarily know how foreign the characters are from the Japanese perspective.

Of course, it can just be ignored.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ProxyAccount

It's perhaps a metaphor or commentary on how people are prejudged on the basis of academic evaluations that don't reveal what people can accomplish... or their character. It's ironic that a Strategic class magician is a 2nd Course student. I find humor in it, but that's me.

Humor you say, but laugh out loud humor, or more of a "this is the problem with a system based on standardized testing" scoffing?

Japanese writers often projecting Japanese sensibilities and stereotypes upon non-Japanese characters. Even though the characters aren't Japanese, in order to understand the writer's intent, you might still have to understand the writer's cultural perspective. As to the characters, it can get murky because foreign readers don't necessarily know how foreign the characters are from the Japanese perspective.

I would buy this, except that the characters are in no way portrayed any differently than a Japanese character would be by the same author, names and hair/skin color aside.

Anything written by Narita Ryohgo: EVERYONE is crazy. Crazy transcends all nationalities. Likewise Eyeshield 21. And Hellsing. And Cowboy Bebop.

Of course, it can just be ignored.

Words to live by, when our beloved honorifics are dropped.

[ProxyAccount]

Originally Posted by Rasen

Humor you say, but laugh out loud humor, or more of a "this is the problem with a system based on standardized testing" scoffing?

More like black humor. I can definitely believe that it's the perspective of a non-upwardly mobile "salaryman" with a cynical view of the world.

I would buy this, except that the characters are in no way portrayed any differently than a Japanese character would be by the same author, names and hair/skin color aside.

What? You mean that they think it's sufficient for a character to drop the occasional foreign word or use weird grammar to pass as off as a foreigner? I'm shocked.

Anything written by Narita Ryohgo: EVERYONE is crazy. Crazy transcends all nationalities. Likewise Eyeshield 21. And Hellsing. And Cowboy Bebop.

I blame this guy.

Words to live by, when our beloved honorifics are dropped.

I prefer sub-titled works. Some don't like to "read" anime and prefer dubs. Fortunately, we usually have a choice when it comes to anime. Most domestic licensees probably make a compromise that most can live with.

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by ProxyAccount

What? You mean that they think it's sufficient for a character to drop the occasional foreign word or use weird grammar to pass as off as a foreigner? I'm shocked.

No, I mean they don't even drop foreign words (at least no more frequently than the Japanese characters) and their grammar is perfect. With only their names to distinguish them, and even then not always (Re: Harry MacKenzie)

I blame this guy.

Nabeshi? That's an odd choice. He's probably the most sane character in Excel Saga, second only to Menchi.

The really crazy thing is that there is still a Geocities in Japan.

[Blonddude42]

I'm trying to decide which would be worse. Translating honorifics to English or just straight up dropping them?

I think I would prefer the latter over the former. Also wouldn't most people in america get more confused over having the order of names reversed? And all the stuff like that?

[ProxyAccount]

Originally Posted by Rasen

No, I mean they don't even drop foreign words (at least no more frequently than the Japanese characters) and their grammar is perfect. With only their names to distinguish them, and even then not always (Re: Harry MacKenzie)

I used to complain about it. Now I just shake my head at the laziness of it.
Writer: Let's introduce a French character.
Manager: You mean a character that speaks French?
Executive: That's too foreign for our audience. Just give a character a French name and light hair.

Nabeshi? That's an odd choice. He's probably the most sane character in Excel Saga, second only to Menchi.

He takes comedy and then injects whacked-out craziness to create what he considers to be humor. After reading GXP, you almost wonder what made him think that it's a good idea to add a [self-insert] perverted robot to the show.

The really crazy thing is that there is still a Geocities in Japan.

Just like there's an Excite Japan. It's almost like time travel.

[zerozeronine]

Originally Posted by Rasen

I will contest this point.

Imagine this dictionary entry for "Oniisama" that TRIES to capture all the "cultural" subtext:

"Oniisama -

1. extremely respectful way to address one's older brother. Does not get used too often in modern day. Unless by a person with a proper upbringing. Except not always.
2. Also used to address an older friend.
3. Or friend of same age who is an older brother of someone else.
4. Or friend of same age who is greatly respected, but also close like family
5. Or friend of older age who is greatly respected, but also close like family.
6. Or if you're mocking him for being addressed that way by someone else.
7. Or if his younger siblings have a brother complex
8. Or if he in an extremely doting older brother.

"
Now imagine a similar entry for EVERY honorific in EVERY dialect, because of all the glorious hidden subtext. For just honorifics, you could be printing out dozens of pages.



And what do you base that on? Because Westerners don't read books with pictures? Or have books for young adults?

Again, no company is going to WILLINGLY choose to sell LESS books.

Have you read some of those english translated manga volumes?That's what kind of honorific dictionary I'm talking about,only a page and a half of a basic honorific dictionary that'll take a few seconds to read and understand.

Seeing mister in the Shigatsu anime,instead of sensei is annoying especially if the person addressed to is still a teen and only a couple of years older.Some of the context in the story will be also changed as someone said,like removing -dono while Hayama is addressing Tatsuya will change the fact that Aoki doesn't respect him,with how he addresses him.

About the sales,my comment is based on what I see on the U.S comic market and some degree to non-adult non-Japan LN fiction,the U.S comic market is slowly dying for years,even thought many movies based on comic book properties are blockbusters and home release sales wise are tons better than the comics itself.
For non-adult non-Japan LN fiction,except for HP,most of the best selling teen rated novels I'm seeing are romance driven like the Twilight series and Vampire diaries.And they had successful movies/tv series promoting the series.In comparison,most LN's are harem based with the romance pushed back behind the fantasy/sci-fi/rom-com theme of the series.And I believe I do see a good chunk of negative comments about adults/late teens reading novels with anime art on the cover

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by zerozeronine

Have you read some of those english translated manga volumes?That's what kind of honorific dictionary I'm talking about,only a page and a half of a basic honorific dictionary that'll take a few seconds to read and understand.

I haven't seen an honorific dictionary in manga since Del Rey stopped translating manga. And I've certainly never seen an honorific dictionary for a light novel.

Seeing mister in the Shigatsu anime,instead of sensei is annoying especially if the person addressed to is still a teen and only a couple of years older.Some of the context in the story will be also changed as someone said,like removing -dono while Hayama is addressing Tatsuya will change the fact that Aoki doesn't respect him,with how he addresses him.

Or they could simply change how Hayama addresses Tatsuya. Butlers didn't start in Japan, and they were perfectly capable of expressing respect or disdain without Japanese honorifics.

About the sales,my comment is based on what I see on the U.S comic market and some degree to non-adult non-Japan LN fiction,the U.S comic market is slowly dying for years,even thought many movies based on comic book properties are blockbusters and home release sales wise are tons better than the comics itself.
For non-adult non-Japan LN fiction,except for HP,most of the best selling teen rated novels I'm seeing are romance driven like the Twilight series and Vampire diaries.And they had successful movies/tv series promoting the series.In comparison,most LN's are harem based with the romance pushed back behind the fantasy/sci-fi/rom-com theme of the series.And I believe I do see a good chunk of negative comments about adults/late teens reading novels with anime art on the cover

But herein lies what I was saying before. If interesting enough, people who would never touch manga WILL read a children's/young adults's book. And if you want to have MORE customers, in what may be a slowly dying market, you want to make it easier for them to read, not exclude them. (The translator is already fighting an uphill battle by providing a product with Japanese sensibilities, that was translated)

And while there may be negative comments about people reading novels with anime art on the cover, I don't think it can compare to the negative comments about people who read manga.

And if teeny bop girls can love reverse harems with sparkly vampires, I don't see why boys can't love harems with science fiction.

[Armando99]

I understand about the necessity of adapting to the changing market base in order to revive faltering sales. We have to ask this question though, "how much more "dumbing of America" do we need to do? Most children, and for the most part adults as well, can barely read a book. This is one of the most prevailing problem about education in the States and no one has an easy solution, or any solution for that matter.

By dropping things that makes a manga a manga will turn that product into something else. I would probably hate to see something like this done and would just buy and read a typical Western fiction book instead.

[amtro]

The sci-fi literature market has been dominated by political left ideologies for the last three decades. In terms of political ideas, mahouka leans decisively towards the right. If this catches on and manages to help youths start thinking for themselves, then all for the better.
I just want my damn mahouka, but I don't want to wait 5 years to read the continuation. If I were to try teaching myself Japanese that would be the timeframe, as I have to finish my bachelor degree and then a master in simulation technologies before I can start setting aside time to teach myself one of the most difficult languages.

[ProxyAccount]

Originally Posted by amtro

The sci-fi literature market has been dominated by political left ideologies for the last three decades. In terms of political ideas, mahouka leans decisively towards the right. If this catches on and manages to help youths start thinking for themselves, then all for the better.

True, but higher education has mostly leaned hard left for a number of decades, with the exception of hard science and engineering professors. Also, with respect to fantasy/sci-fi genres, there are/were a number of center-right or libertarian writers such as Ringo, Nivens, Drake, and Brin. Their protagonists often respect the institutions they must operate under, but follow their own paths where they can. Of course, there's Heinlein as well.

I just want my damn mahouka, but I don't want to wait 5 years to read the continuation. If I were to try teaching myself Japanese that would be the timeframe, as I have to finish my bachelor degree and then a master in simulation technologies before I can start setting aside time to teach myself one of the most difficult languages.

My first recommendation is that you get a Amazon.co.jp account that isn't connected to the registered e-mail address at Amazon.com (because their system is poorly designed and will muck things up).

Use Amazon Japan to get Japanese Kindle books and manga. Not everything is available in an e-book, but a lot is. Pick up some children's books and manga (there are free ones) to use for practice.

Use the regular Amazon account to pickup useful books. You're mostly concerned with reading Japanese, not speaking it, so choose your books accordingly. Use the previews to see if the books focus on kanji and kana, not romanji. Lots of people like romanji, but I think that it's a crutch. Moreover, you'll never see it in Japanese literature, only in fansubs and translations. Also, get two paper dictionaries: Japanese-English and English-Japanese. If you have a Half-Price bookstore (or some other bookstore that buys and sells used books) near a college, check it out. There's bound to be a great many books on learning Japanese and other foreign languages.

This seemed interesting:
Japanese the Manga Way: An Illustrated Guide to Grammar and Structure

There's also an app that looks helpful in learning the strokes:
Obenkyo

[Rasen]

Originally Posted by Armando99

I understand about the necessity of adapting to the changing market base in order to revive faltering sales. We have to ask this question though, "how much more "dumbing of America" do we need to do? Most children, and for the most part adults as well, can barely read a book. This is one of the most prevailing problem about education in the States and no one has an easy solution, or any solution for that matter.

I understand the sentiment, but I also think you're exaggerating. It's one thing to not challenge Americans to learn MORE on their own (honorifics), it's another thing to dumb things down (magic has been reduced to funny phrases and wand flicks).

By dropping things that makes a manga a manga will turn that product into something else. I would probably hate to see something like this done and would just buy and read a typical Western fiction book instead.

First, this is not a manga. It's a light novel. Second, if removing honorifics no longer makes this a manga/light novel, that is a ridiculously strict definition of manga/light novel. Viz drops the honorifics in their localized Evangelion - are you saying that is no longer manga? It is now a comic?

But I will start taking the side of the purists when
- Mahouka becomes "A student in a magic school, the story of Terrence Sanders and his childhood friend/adopted sister Milly,"
- They attend attend Goldman University in New York City
- The bathhouses are replaced with gym saunas
- Entrance exams are replaced with applications
- The 9SC has been replaced with March Madness
- "Angelina Sirius" becomes "Anya Sharapova"
- "Taurus Silver" become white-hat hacker "Cow Tipper"
- The art by Ishida Kana has been replaced with watercolors by Rebecca Guay.

Seriously. There's more to Japanese culture than the honorifics.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by Rasen

I understand the sentiment, but I also think you're exaggerating. It's one thing to not challenge Americans to learn MORE on their own (honorifics), it's another thing to dumb things down (magic has been reduced to funny phrases and wand flicks).



First, this is not a manga. It's a light novel. Second, if removing honorifics no longer makes this a manga/light novel, that is a ridiculously strict definition of manga/light novel. Viz drops the honorifics in their localized Evangelion - are you saying that is no longer manga? It is now a comic?

But I will start taking the side of the purists when
- Mahouka becomes "A student in a magic school, the story of Terrence Sanders and his childhood friend/adopted sister Milly,"
- They attend attend Goldman University in New York City
- The bathhouses are replaced with gym saunas
- Entrance exams are replaced with applications
- The 9SC has been replaced with March Madness
- "Angelina Sirius" becomes "Anya Sharapova"
- "Taurus Silver" become white-hat hacker "Cow Tipper"
- The art by Ishida Kana has been replaced with watercolors by Rebecca Guay.

Seriously. There's more to Japanese culture than the honorifics.

That goes without saying. There are hot springs and bentos, too.

[Carlosmig1105]

How is everyone keeping up with the series? Would my only option be to learn to read Japanese to read this or wait until it ever gets to the States?

[amtro]

You're not allowed to ask on animesuki where you can read the LN, nor are you allowed to post information on where others might be able to. Aside from that do whatever you want.

[dragon1412]

This actually make me having rather mixed feelings about this, for once, i don't think Mahouka can make it in America, since if what my Iceland teacher is correct then America, mostly don't have much knowledge about physics and chemistry if they aren't specialized in it while in Asian country both of them are mandatory subjects. One of Mahouka greatest charm is it magic system, which kind of a kill joy if you don't understand the principle behind it and Mahouka was never an easy to read book.

[LKK]

^^ I'm not terribly worried about that particular issue. Mahouka has several interesting themes besides it magic system. It has enough of them that even someone like me who finds the physics underlying the magic a bore can be entranced by the novel series as a whole.