Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Matts]

Originally Posted by Convoy

I don't recall that ever being addressed.

They probably didn't feel the need to. Green hair and the pointy ears are Zentreadi features, probably the most common ones. She is not human, that's for sure, the ears alone give that away.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Thess

The show wasn't questioning Windermere, it was portraying how they were driven into extreme for how they were treated in the past. Yes, and it's self-destructive for them, but it was like a warning and unabashed insulting and criticism toward the NUNS. Keith died a hero who chose to save the galaxy and his friend's soul, most important NUNS guy died as a war criminal mind controlled into self destruction.

I guess the main problem is that it starts in the middle of the story rather than at the beginning (7 years ago). If they put a side story here, maybe this will help to understand what was right and what was wrong.

The current war itself was wrong but is is already wrong because it has never been shown what caused this war. At the end you can say it was humans fear and greed what caused all this.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

The current war itself was wrong but is is already wrong because it has never been shown what caused this war.

What?
WHAT?

We SAW what caused this war; Windermere sent a squad of Valks and declared war, right in front of the audience. Windermere also told us WHY they declared war.

Have you forgotten? Have you entirely erased that entire episode from memory? Why is it that a declaration of war isn't the start of the war? Why is the stated intent for the war not good enough, and that you want to believe there is more to the war than what Windermere had already started in public?

Have you in fact, started to believe that Windermere didn't start this war at all? Even though THEY said they did?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What?
WHAT?

I believe Father_Hentai means it in the context of what encouraged Gramia into beginning this war after the 7 year timeskip.
That kind of is never shown. We are given his motives, but never a flashback to really show when in the last 7 years he believed in beginning a war for those motives.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I believe Father_Hentai means it in the context of what encouraged Gramia into beginning this war after the 7 year timeskip.
That kind of is never shown. We are given his motives, but never a flashback to really show when in the last 7 years he believed in beginning a war for those motives.

That assumes that Gramia had justification to begin with. That assumes that Gramia was a good guy and then retroactively try to find an excuse for his actions. I don't buy that. Gramia declared war, and if he really had any grievances that lead to the war he would have SAID so, when the war is declared.

I don't see this as a plothole. I see this as Father_Hentai trying to find evidence for a false assumption . Gramia declared war because war is good for Windermere. And at the end of the TV series he is proven 100% right. Windermere has won control over multiple planets, had not lost any major engagement, and in all evidence coming out a great empire ruling over lesser races.

What evidence do you need? Windermere won. They got their Empire. Why do you think they needed any other reason for war?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That assumes that Gramia had justification to begin with. That assumes that Gramia was a good guy and then retroactively try to find an excuse for his actions. I don't buy that. Gramia declared war, and if he really had any grievances that lead to the war he would have SAID so, when the war is declared.

I don't see this as a plothole. I see this as Father_Hentai trying to find evidence for a false assumption . Gramia declared war because war is good for Windermere. And at the end of the TV series he is proven 100% right. Windermere has won control over multiple planets, had not lost any major engagement, and in all evidence coming out a great empire ruling over lesser races.

What evidence do you need? Windermere won. They got their Empire. Why do you think they needed any other reason for war?

All I did is clarify the post. Don't lump me in the debate. Personally, I could care less. The series is over and you'll never win or lose who is right or wrong on this debate. Argue your side all you like but neither side is justified for war because their is no right reason for war period. But if you're going to misread or fabricate your own interpretation of someone's post because it doesn't fit your vision, that's your issue. Don't place words in other people's mouth either. No one is trying to justify either side of the war; we're all sharing our views/opinions, no need to get your panties in a knot or something because people don't share your view all the time.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Argue your side all you like but neither side is justified for war because their is no right reason for war period.

Then you are already on my side of the argument, as Windermere declared war when there was peace. Thanks for proving me right.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Then you are already on my side of the argument, as Windermere declared war when there was peace. Thanks for proving me right.

[*SNIP*]

And, for the record, Windermere did not win!
Chaos reclaimed Ragna, Windermere is going home, more than half of the Aerial Knights (their strongest military) are dead, and Heinz is talking about peace in the final episode. If anything, Chaos won.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

[*SNIP*]

And, for the record, Windermere did not win!
Chaos reclaimed Ragna, Windermere is going home, more than half of the Aerial Knights (their strongest military) are dead, and Heinz is talking about peace in the final episode. If anything, Chaos won.

Windermere's home is their territory. There is nothing in it saying they are retreating back to their planet or giving up any of their new enslaved populations. They have more than they started with, that's definitely a win. That almost never happens in anime, this is a rare case of a profitable war.

And losing a few knights? You think that's even a remotely important issue? Their casualty list is laughable small.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

There is nothing in it saying they are retreating back to their planet or giving up any of their new enslaved populations.

It's quite clear in episode 26 that once the Protoculture ruins on Ragna are destroyed, and by the damage on the Windermere ship where Heinz is, Windermere lost all control over it's so-called "enslaved populations" because all the other ruins are shown to stop glowing and civilizations are shown "waking up." I don't believe Windermere will be able to "enslave people" via the ruins anymore (especially since the one on their ship is ruined, too).

Sometimes I wonder if people fully pay attention to the episode or not. It's like Frontier all over again, only less of a love triangle debate...

[Triple_R]

About Reina - I looked her up here and here. No mention at either place of her being Zentraedi, so I thought "I guess she's human?" I don't recall the show itself ever directly addressing if Kaname, Makina, or Reina were human.

I didn't put much importance in green hair because, well, anime hair. I don't think Hayate and Makina's hair colors are natural human hair colors either. Reina's ears are a little big/pointy for a human's, but they're nowhere near as long/pointy as Mirage's are. So I wasn't inclined to consider Reina alien just because of her ears.

But if Reina is Zentraedi, so be it. If green hair in Macross = Zentraedi, no questions asked, then I'll keep that in mind when watching Macross shows in the future.

"Screw your human rules, I have green hair!"

[CrowKenobi]

Let's return to discussing episode 26 events and move the off-topic stuff to the proper threads, please.

[Convoy]

"Insulting the other person means you lost the argument." Yeah right, that's not how most real-life people perceive things to work.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

it's so-called "enslaved populations"

It's funny how this still makes me laugh.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

It's funny how this still makes me laugh.

They're not "enslaved" anymore; as I said, Protoculture ruins destroyed, how is Windermere going to do anything on those planets without physically going to them? And don't forget, they're only singer is about dead at this point, and they've lost Mikumo. I'm more than positive they're not going to chase after the Protoculture ruins again or risk losing their King.

Originally Posted by Convoy

"Insulting the other person means you lost the argument." Yeah right, that's not how most real-life people perceive things to work.

And when people decide not to read what you said in your post and decide you're agreeing with them, I draw the line at dealing with those types of trolls. I never said I agreed with them, I said I don't care for either side; which meant this: I don't care about the war, I don't care about unresolved questions or plot points, I don't care about the things s/he dislikes about Delta, but I'm not going to let someone be condescending towards someone else because s/he did not bother to read the person's post either. It's bad manners period. If you're on a forum to discuss, do it right; don't half-ass something like responding to a user if they're taking the time to read your post.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And losing a few knights? You think that's even a remotely important issue? Their casualty list is laughable small.

You missed all the pilots who died in this episode, didn't you? You know, the ones our protagonists killed in this episode because they had no choice, because Roid brainwashed them into fighting everyone, even their own kind?

Nope.
Windermere did not win; neither side won this war; it's a draw. Chaos reclaims Ragna, Windermere retreats to their home world. Of the two biggest players on the board -- Windermere and NUNS -- both will be suffering for years to come because neither one won on their end either (because NUNS is eliminated in episode 25). The one who is suffering the most is Windermere because their leader is not only a child anymore, he is dying; half of their Aerial Knights are dead and who knows how their military is right now (because countless pilots died in this episode and we're never fully shown how big their military is, unlike how we're shown this in previous entries in the franchise). Arguing their military is okay is out of the question because there's no proof Windermere is "okay" from this or even "victors". In fact, the ones who come out on top are Chaos, who loses one person in this war.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That assumes that Gramia had justification to begin with. That assumes that Gramia was a good guy and then retroactively try to find an excuse for his actions. I don't buy that. Gramia declared war, and if he really had any grievances that lead to the war he would have SAID so, when the war is declared.

I don't see this as a plothole. I see this as Father_Hentai trying to find evidence for a false assumption . Gramia declared war because war is good for Windermere. And at the end of the TV series he is proven 100% right. Windermere has won control over multiple planets, had not lost any major engagement, and in all evidence coming out a great empire ruling over lesser races.

What evidence do you need? Windermere won. They got their Empire. Why do you think they needed any other reason for war?

By all indications it's going to be a pretty short lived empire. I guess it is a bit of a problem we have to assume the impending retribution instead of seeing it (or even having an official narration about it), but it's not the ringing endorsement for conquest you seem to think it is.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

By all indications it's going to be a pretty short lived empire. I guess it is a bit of a problem we have to assume the impending retribution instead of seeing it (or even having an official narration about it), but it's not the ringing endorsement for conquest you seem to think it is.

Multiple people in the last few weeks have been arguing in this forum that there was not going to be any retribution whatsoever.

And for the studio to refuse to show even a hint of retribution, for a faction that nearly secured total and overwhelming victory over 2 cour, implied at the very least that the studio WANT Windermere to be Imperial Japan that won WW2.

[magnuskn]

The show ends with the appearance that the Windbags are going out on a stronger position than NUNS. Logical inference says that this won't last. As soon as Heinz croaks or their neighbours/NUNS figures out that the protoculture ruins are inert, Windermere better prepare themselves for a giant fleet to appear on their doorstep. I'm pretty sure aristocracy will be a thing of the past in the span of three years and it's quite possible that future potential wind singers will be forbidden to use their talents.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The show ends with the appearance that the Windbags are going out on a stronger position than NUNS. Logical inference says that this won't last. As soon as Heinz croaks or their neighbours/NUNS figures out that the protoculture ruins are inert, Windermere better prepare themselves for a giant fleet to appear on their doorstep. I'm pretty sure aristocracy will be a thing of the past in the span of three years and it's quite possible that future potential wind singers will be forbidden to use their talents.

This is what I WANT, yes. But what we saw so far and how Windermere is portrayed, makes it very hard to believe that the anime studio had any intention to do any of this. Delta goes out of its way to make light of everything Windermere did wrong, no matter how villainous. If the studio was self aware enough to do what you suggest, they would have done something during the show itself.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, it's troublesome. I'd be happy to let future events play out with that logical inference, but I also can't be sure that the universe won't bend itself backwards to accomodate the Windbags. Which it shouldn't by every indicator there is, but you are right that the show did very little to drive the point home how bad the things were which the pretty Space Nazis did.