Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Trax]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

One reason that he joined the army is to minimize the casualties which his side causes. Of course, he may sound like a hypocrite, but he isn't someone who has a Freedom Gundam supporting him with a secret base leisurely roving around the country. He is limited by what he can do. But even, he is still doing something.

The problem is that his chances of success depend on a ton of ifs, meaning it's extremely unlikely unless everything happens in his favor. This unlikeliness makes it very hard to root for him. While Lulu has had his share of good fortune, it still seems more likely he'll make some progress thanks to his Geass and his current status in the rebellion.

Being practical makes a person less discriminatory than other people. Being practical means logic comes first before prejudice.

True, but it's no guarantee. Britannians have been brainwashed in some degree by their countries propoganda and only a select few might actually doubt the beliefs forced upon them.

Also, the same phrase can be used against you as well. Just because we've seen Britannian thugs around the settlements, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Britannians in the settlement are like that.

But it doesn't mean all Britannians in the settlement *aren't* like that either, or at least to some degree. From what has been shown so far, Britannians are either derogatory or indifferent at best towards Elevens. The latter case seemingly being quite rare.

If the Emperor truly had Purist inclinations, Honorary Britannians wouldn't have been ever enlisted in the army like Suzaku was. What is clear about the emperor is that he believes that the "strong live and the weak die". If Suzaku is able to show his resolve, even the emperor could change his mind if that philosophy is what he TRULY believes in. Even if the Emperor is a jerk, Suzaku can gain favor from the royalty that is allowing him to climb the ranks.

Purist inclinations could mean that he would never allow a HB to attain a high rank, not necessarily ban them from the army altogether. Even if the Emperor believes strongly in that philosophy, we have no idea about the specific way he applies it and if he would just view Suzaku is a useful tool rather than give him any real respect.

Lulu's sense of justice isn't any far worse than Suzaku's if you ask for hypocrisy, and yet it's only one guy who gets the flak.

Imo that's because Lulu 's trying to create an image (ally of justice) to garner support, but doesn't actually mean it and knows he's technically being a hypocrite. While on the other hand Suzaku actually believes his own nonsense without realizing he's being a hypocrite.

Well, as I said before: collateral damage. Logically speaking, it's the easiest way to fight their war without losing as many of their own troops.

I already admitted to that, but that doesn't make it any less true that they're knowingly killing innocent civilians. And it irks me that Suzaku conveniently ignores that.

Lulu is a bit of a bastard in his own right, and while he tries to build a false image and uses people as chess pieces to some degree, he's fully aware of what he's doing and what the consequences of his actions are. While Suzaku is just lying to himself.

[Viperus]

wow , this was.........long....

this is typical Kira-Athuran (Gundam Seed) situation , Athuran....err Suzaku will see that his way is wrong , and join Kira on the Arch.....I mean Lulu on his ship-vehicle , whatever it is.

We can debate on this topic all day long. Lets say this anime is the real world. possible choices:

1)Lelouch defeats britannia , the empire crumbles , the small nations fight one another , more killing , great.

2) Lelouch becomes the ruler of Britannia (in that case Suzaku is his slave), nothing much really changes. He renames Area 11 to Japan , and gives a bit more freedom to the ocupied countries.

3) Zero gets killed and 11's get masacred because of their rebellion.

Nothing good can really happen no matter what main characters do.

[Darkeyesrina]

Just wondering, who do you think had more and better results both economically and for their people until know:
-the Latin American US Community and countries, their low status member in US government, and the honorary citizenships

-the Arabians including Osama Bin Laden or the Iran's President, and their own independence to do what they decide even if they have to spill their own blood to gain that.

-China and North Korea that can basically do what they want without worrying of attacks from the US because they are a power on their own.

Suzaku is the first one. Even if he gets all the medals and awards possible and existing, he still isn't a Brittanian, so someday if needed he will be betrayed, strip from power, and returned to his home with nothing of what he worked to obtain.

Lelouch is the second one, trying to raise to the third spot. He knows that he is going to raise hell everywhere, he knows that he will have to kill for his ideals, he doesn't like it but he knows it is needed.

People here go like Lelouch should simply stop killing and let himself and Nanaly get captured and be used as tools for the Empire for the 'greater good'. Well, the world doesn't work like that, and each person actually have a right to fight for his own freedom. People call Lelouch an arrogant and greedy person for causing soo much death for his own personal gain, yet the other alternative isn't even better for him.

[mangastuff]

-the Latin American US Community and countries, their low status member in US government, and the honorary citizenships

-the Arabians including Osama Bin Laden or the Iran's President, and their own independence to do what they decide even if they have to spill their own blood to gain that.

The levels are different. The Latin American people are treated as good as the US citizens (And those are dif. nations then). To the case of the Arabians, he "invasion" of the US, if you want to use the word, is not as an extreme case as in Code Geass. It is different like, say, between whether you will resist if a gang hit you and whether you will resist if they are about to kill you.

[evil|plushie]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Basically, people have to read Suzaku's lines to be able to grasp what it is he wants. What he wants isn't obvious so people will, in turn, obviously just label him as a lapdog traitor because it's EASIER to do so than to understand him.
.

That's because there's nothing to him to understand yet. Suzaku has gotten the LEAST character development in the entire series, considering hes one of the main characters. Right now he can be summed up in one sentence 'This isn't Justice!!'

Don't try and say we don't try and understand Suzaku, hell I'd love to know how that mind of his works in the first place but the simple fact is he has NO frigging development at all. And everything else so far beyond the fact that he has some notion of justice that isn't quite clear is mere conjecture.

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

Let's also not forget that the Lancelot was constructed under the 2nd Imperial Prince. Yet, the Prince ALLOWED a number, whose not even suppose to pilot a KF, to pilot it despite the opposition of most of the Britannian officers. As Euphie's general stated, not even they can shove Suzuka off the board. When Cornelia first arrived she promoted Suzuka to Warrent Officer. And now he stands for another promotion. I would say he is literally a hero for HB's as it shows them that even they can rise to the top in the Britannian Empire. Cornelia stated firmly that she intends to win without numbers but we can see now that has changed. So yes he is changing the system and how people view HB's. Since Euphie shares his views she too will fight for change.

I disagree. Do you honestly think that if there was a britiannian that could pilot Freed- Lancelot they wouldnt use him instead and then relegate Suzaku back to the monkey trash they think he is?

And yes I suppose he's a hero to other HBs for showing them that yes, they too can risk their lives fighting for Britiannia and crushing other numbers, assuming they are ever lucky enough to find themselves in a lancelot. -_- Suzakus current success so far has been a fluke and theres little improvement to show at all for all his effort.

Suzaku desperately needs char. development but somehow I doubt he'll be getting it. He somehow thinks the world is this magical fantasy where everyone should become honourary britiannians and cant understand why people dont leap at the chance to embrace the nationality of the country that invaded them and then oppressed them. Either that or he needs sensitivity training.

As for the battle at Narita, exactly what kind of world would consider losing 80% of its forces to a smaller sized rebel troop as a victory???? Not to mention that obviously the key figures seemed to have escaped that battle.

[lade]

I believe some of you here watch gundam, some of you may have watched gundam 0080, a fantastic piece of work by tomino showing war at it's best , I see code geass as such a scenario. It put a human face to the bad guys , but still ensured they all died in their mission, because their the bad guys and the their opponents can't lose their resole just because they know them, fitting that the main zaft character died at the hands of someone he cared for.Just because you have gotten to know them and sympathize with them does not change the nature of what they are or represent.

Britannia is in itself a scourge on the world, yes there are a few bright spots to it, euphemia comes to mind, but where it counts and where it does matter it is still a scourge, lelouch to me is no saint but at least he is honest enough with himself to accept what he must do and feels some measure of guilt for doing them, but still has the resolve to continue, the world if schniezel ever gets the throne is likely to become a far worse place than it will better.

I for one see even suzaku waking up to the harsh reality of his situation after he gets a load of schniezel, and what it may portend for the rest of world if britannia isn't stopped.That people like shirley not altogether deserving of their fate ( I can't see lulu letting her live with such compromising information about him , when he ever the realist can't afford to be immune to reality due to feelings for her ,if he has any), they will suffer yes but the rest of the world will get a chance to live.

[bond4154]

/me hits Viperus on the head with a mallet for making a Kira-Suzaku reference. See last post on page 11. >_>

[anselfir]

I don't find the main moral issue in this show to be "end/means" which btw is either a simple fallacy or a confusion over language. It is how they tend to frame the rebellion as one of national struggle, and not one of anti-coercion or anti-war/violence. The rationale behind britain's invasion is never explained in the beginning, so the audience is expected to assume something like "a war over resources, " or a war over land, whcih would frame the war as a struggle between the britain people (who presumably benefit from the war) and the nippon people. Yeah, great, why not say plainly that the good struggle should be one against nationalistic aggression and "us" vs "them" mentalities. And depending on the government structure of britainia maybe a rally against monarchies or some other long beaten up punching bag. (for sure they wont be attacing a democratic britania, now will they)

If this turns out to be a nationalist jerkfest then it is one of the worst anime phenomenons ever.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by anselfir

I don't find the main moral issue in this show to be "end/means" which btw is either a simple fallacy or a confusion over language. It is how they tend to frame the rebellion as one of national struggle, and not one of anti-coercion or anti-war/violence. The rationale behind britain's invasion is never explained in the beginning, so the audience is expected to assume something like "a war over resources, " or a war over land, whcih would frame the war as a struggle between the britain people (who presumably benefit from the war) and the nippon people. Yeah, great, why not say plainly that the good struggle should be one against nationalistic aggression and "us" vs "them" mentalities. And depending on the government structure of britainia maybe a rally against monarchies or some other long beaten up punching bag. (for sure they wont be attacing a democratic britania, now will they)

If this turns out to be a nationalist jerkfest then it is one of the worst anime phenomenons ever.

If it was about "us vs them" wouldn't you think Lulu would have been cast as a Japanese rather than a Britannian prince?

There is no nationalism issues here; just power struggles.

[bond4154]

Vallen Chaos Valiant makes a very good point. Nationalism is a result of power struggles, two different forces that are constantly at odds. Nationalism was the core of post-World War I Germany that held the Germans together as they became the Nazis and brought out Germany's economy. At the same time, England's nationalism after the Industrial Revolution came from the arrogance of being the world's most advanced nation at the time. Nationalism itself is the bind that holds the people together, not necessarily the source of conflict itself. The same goes with Britannians and Elevens. The Brits consider themselves superior to the Elevens. Enough said.

...On that note, I find it oddly ironic that, a century after the Japanese tried to conquer Southeast Asia to build their empire and committed atrocities under the name of the Emperor, and sixty years after their dream collapsed and paved the way to Western influence, the Japanese create an anime where they are becoming the ones who are oppressed and persecuted. Irony indeed.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by bond4154

...On that note, I find it oddly ironic that, a century after the Japanese tried to conquer Southeast Asia to build their empire and committed atrocities under the name of the Emperor, and sixty years after their dream collapsed and paved the way to Western influence, the Japanese create an anime where they are becoming the ones who are oppressed and persecuted. Irony indeed.

Didn't one of the Japanese posters here comment that the producer is well-known for his left-wing political leanings, and this aspect of Code Geass is almost certainly a deliberate, pointed jab at right-wing Japanese nationalists?

(Found it - this is the post, by Nagoyan.)

[bond4154]

Thanks, Guppy. ^_^

[Viperus]

Originally Posted by bond4154

/me hits Viperus on the head with a mallet for making a Kira-Suzaku reference. See last post on page 11. >_>

Actually , I said Suzaku is more like Athuran (or however you spell his name , it differs from fansub to fansub , but he's the one that pilots Justice) so............

/Viperus swiftly avoids the mallet , draws a katana from his pocket and shatteres the mallet into a million pices. RIP Mallet

[seraphon]

After seeing ep 13 I can say that suzaku changing brittania from the inside is really impossible.
Why? because it seems that its not even suzaku's real goal anyways........ Suzaku acts like a little kid......
First he answers "yes my lord" to the order of "kill them all" ,cool, thougth I dont see where the justice is because justice says that everyone , even the worst dictator, deserve to be tried in a court. Afterwards he look totally dumbfounded to the unilateral massacre of the JLF....... which proves that he s a coward that is all talk because if he believed so much in justice he would have tried something, like jumping in front of his britannians pals.....
And finally the way he reacted to zero's attack and how he speak to him show totally that he is losing his nerves for being a worthless coward. Men, he was totally venting his frustration on zero by shouting at him and by bashing him.....
Saying things like, murderer!!!! because zero used the JLF that were massacred by his "justice armie"..... It s funny how he got the idea that the JLF death were totally zero's fault.

In fact now, suzaku only goal is to bash zero's ass and say to him "hahaha I got you, you were wrong, your method doesnt work , Told you so".... wow

[Owaranai Destiny]

Let's face it: The only real good argument going for Suzaku here is the time factor and tonnes of "Ifs". Despite the fact that there have been a few Britannians shown to have shown less or no discrimination to honorary Britannians at all, they are just that: A few.

I have to admit that despite all the flak for him, Suzaku truly has little character development so far. Compared to Lelouch, who has already seen two sides of the coin yet is still ready to continue his struggle, Suzaku has indeed been living in his own little world. It will do wonders to his character if he has to face the same harsh reality as well, which might be a result of his own selfish actions just like ol' Lulu...Unless of course, Code Geass is still intent on showing them in two different lights in this aspect.

One last thing: If Suzaku's character is really all that good, I don't believe he would be drawing so much flak from so many viewers.

[mangastuff]

Originally Posted by seraphon

In fact now, suzaku only goal is to bash zero's ass and say to him "hahaha I got you, you were wrong, your method doesnt work , Told you so".... wow

Totally agree with you. I'm not sure if "changing from inside" theory is ok or not, but what Suzaku has done so far doesn't seem to me that he is indeed pursueing this goal, but more like he has changed to a new task - critizing and fighting against Zero

[seraphon]

I ve reviewed old episodes and I found the perfect and undeniable proof that suzau is no ally of justice!.
In episode 11 , when C.C make him sees his past and he get crazy, can you seriously say that the face suzaku has after they find him in his cockpit, is the face of an ally of justice? I think its more the face of a damn traitor whos to weak to admit he is a traitor.

[Majek]

Originally Posted by seraphon

I ve reviewed old episodes and I found the perfect and undeniable proof that suzau is no ally of justice!.
In episode 11 , when C.C make him sees his past and he get crazy, can you seriously say that the face suzaku has after they find him in his cockpit, is the face of an ally of justice? I think its more the face of a damn traitor whos to weak to admit he is a traitor.

Well of course after a intense mindrape you'll have alook peace on your face.

And Zero IS a murderer there's nothing wrong with that Suzaku's statement.

[seraphon]

well suzaku is a murderer too then. And I was snapping about the way he says it. He said as if he had no part in it and that it was entirely zero s fault the JLF died....... and you know its easy to say zero is a murderer but I dont hear suzaku saying anything to his superiors.

And I think the face wasnt because of the mind rape...... because in that case C.C and lulu also had a mind rape and they fare better.........
You knowing seeing a memorie about your father then going berserk saying AARRRRGGGGG I HAD NO CHOICE totally sound like what a traitor say to the face of those he betrayed.

[Plan 36]

Yeah, but when a murderer (who doesn't realize that he is one) accuse another murderer, it's called hipocrisy.