AnimeSuki Forums

Sheba · 2021-03-09, 12:39

Their argument is mostly, if you are poor and working 3 jobs to survive, its your fault and have nothing but yourself to blame. In other words, "f* the poor".

BWTraveller · 2021-03-09, 13:46

Strange, the argument I've often heard (and a sensible one) is that it wouldn't really have a major impact on the livelihoods of those making minimum wage. Increase the minimum wage and you drastically increase the expenses for the companies, who then have to increase the cost of their products in order to maintain their profit and pay the employees. Increasing minimum wage may improve things slightly, but not by that much. You have to think about effects beyond the most immediate and obvious.

ganbaru · 2021-03-09, 16:00

Ryan Grim: ENTIRE Nevada Dem Party Raids Coffers, RESIGNS After DSA Wins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HPkHiKiYd0

GDB · 2021-03-09, 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Strange, the argument I've often heard (and a sensible one) is that it wouldn't really have a major impact on the livelihoods of those making minimum wage. Increase the minimum wage and you drastically increase the expenses for the companies, who then have to increase the cost of their products in order to maintain their profit and pay the employees. Increasing minimum wage may improve things slightly, but not by that much. You have to think about effects beyond the most immediate and obvious.

Argument might hold weight if we didn't have clear examples of companies, cities, and states raising their minimum wages to such levels with minimal (around 2%) to no increase in prices.

Also if companies hadn't already been increasing their prices just to make more profit anyway. They take take a small hit to their profit margin to not screw over half the country.

The Green One · 2021-03-09, 18:46

It's true, places everywhere are jacking up their prices as high as they can and as fast as they can while wages stay stagnant while "experts" scratch their heads and wonder why Americans mysteriously get poorer and poorer somehow.

cyberdemon · 2021-03-09, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Strange, the argument I've often heard (and a sensible one) is that it wouldn't really have a major impact on the livelihoods of those making minimum wage. Increase the minimum wage and you drastically increase the expenses for the companies, who then have to increase the cost of their products in order to maintain their profit and pay the employees. Increasing minimum wage may improve things slightly, but not by that much. You have to think about effects beyond the most immediate and obvious.

The problem with that is that they end up spending that increase more often which can mostly balance everything out. The real problem I see is that companies intentionally inflate their pricing afterwards to milk the increased spending for all its worth.

For example say Walmart went up to $15 an hour for all its employees. Now their employees rather than simply buying as needed to save money, are using the increase to stock up on food and other essentials they’ve been putting off. Hence Walmart has increased revenue since it is easy to buy from the place you work at. However they realize that if they hike up prices then they can make the same profit selling fewer items. And those items can then be sold to other customers for greater profits.

TinyRedLeaf · 2021-03-10, 11:59

^ I see that kind of "explanation" very often. It's a very appealing argument, especially since it taps into the narrative of evil rich people versus hardworking, long-suffering poor people. Unfortunately, though, it's only a half-truth at best. It can happen, but only in very dysfunctional circumstances.

The scenario you describe can only be sustained in a closed economy with substantial collusion between rival businesses. Or, in a worst-case scenario, an economy where one or a few major businesses have a complete chokehold on all supply.

As long as you have a relatively open economy, where businesses compete over factors like price and quality, the competitive pressure will tend to drive prices down over time. It's not feasible for companies to "intentionally inflate their pricing" — ie, profiteer — over a long term, as long as you have an open economy. Rivals will eventually chip away at the price, and offer a rival product or service at what a greater number of customers would consider a fair cost.

=========

The challenge of tackling low wages in a developed economy requires a multi-prong solution that, realistically, would have to be rolled out over several years. In practice, such a plan is unlikely to survive an electoral cycle. So, what you have instead are politicians offering a simplistic solution to a complex problem.

As a matter of principle, I fully agree that more should be done to lift people out of the poverty trap. As a matter of practice, though, I feel that a minimum-wage policy is only a band-aid, and offers only short-term relief, and doesn't address the root causes of poverty.

What is needed are things like greater investment in education, to train people in skills that have long-term economic value; public investment in strategic economic sectors, to foster the growth of companies that can create high-value, well-paying jobs. More public investment in not just the physical infrastructure that would attract private investors, but also in institutional infrastructure that would allow for robust regulation of private enterprise, and ensure that economic gain is shared equitably.

In other words, all the work that a functional government is supposed to do.

Why is it that a cleaner, who does back-breaking physical labour, in what is actually an essential job, is paid so much less than a college graduate with skills in demand in the IT industry? Why is that the cleaner is also earning so much less than an NBA star, blessed with athletic talent honed by years of training?

It's because the cleaner's job requires comparatively far less skill and knowledge. The cleaner, despite his essential role is — to put it bluntly — disposable and easily replaceable. The day will come, in fact, when such labour will be almost completely replaced with automated machines that can do the job with greater consistency.

Lifting wages therefore requires a government to partner with businesses, if need be, and find ways of training workers, and giving them a pathway to more complex, value-added roles that command a premium.

Easier said than done, but it is the only sustainable way forward. The hard truth is that the more irreplaceable you are as labour, the more power you have to command a better pay.

At the same time, what's really needed is a better narrative for getting people to see that everyone, rich and poor alike, has a stake in keeping the economy healthy. Move away from the politics of envy, and move away as well as from the selfish belief that individual success is all down to individual effort.

The latter, I think, is an especially big challenge for American culture — successful individuals tend to be blind to how they owe a large part of their success to the opportunities provided by a healthy society and robust public infrastructure. It's only when you understand this that you'll understand why you have to give back. It is a moral duty.

But of course, people are not angels. Still, the good news is that you don't really need everyone to be on board the idea. All you need is a critical mass of individuals who pay it back or pay it forward, and eventually you'll get a virtuous circle.

That circle has been broken in the US. It'll be good to see it come back again one day.

Magin · 2021-03-11, 03:29

So, Biden should be signing the bill to get stimulus checks out before the end of the week. Okay, I'll give him that, and a dirty look at all the Republicans.

And in other news, Merrick Garland was confirmed as AG in a 70-30 vote. Even freakin' Mitch McConnel said yes... and then I was reminded that Garland is by no means progressive. Hence the reason why Obama originally nominated him as SC judge... but let's be honest here, because the GOP is a bunch of racists they said no to anything a black man dared to propose. Remember, Obamacare was originally Romneycare.

Sheba · 2021-03-11, 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

The latter, I think, is an especially big challenge for American culture — successful individuals tend to be blind to how they owe a large part of their success to the opportunities provided by a healthy society and robust public infrastructure. It's only when you understand this that you'll understand why you have to give back. It is a moral duty.

But of course, people are not angels. Still, the good news is that you don't really need everyone to be on board the idea. All you need is a critical mass of individuals who pay it back or pay it forward, and eventually you'll get a virtuous circle.

That circle has been broken in the US. It'll be good to see it come back again one day.

This remind me when I said, during the Gamestop Reddit vs Wall Street affair, my piece about the rich people pointlessly hoarding their wealth like dragons, and how they should at least try to give back to the society and the workers by helping those by using their wealth through various means, as a matter of moral duty and Christian value of charity. Noblesse Oblige if you will.

What I got as answer? A effing murrican answered along the line of "why should they? Its their freedom to not give back". This reminded me why Ayn Rand never went out of print. The irony is that the prophet of the Bible of sociopaths died living off social welfare. Something Ayn Rand's true believers forgot.

ramlaen · 2021-03-15, 17:32

https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...p-georgia-call

Yet one more hoax added to the pile, after so many does it phase you anymore?

Key Board · 2021-03-16, 12:33

Huge “Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it“ energy here

Trump doesn’t explicitly say things, but you know what he means

//

ramlaen · 2021-03-16, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Board

Huge “Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it“ energy here

Trump doesn’t explicitly say things, but you know what he means

//

This isn't a case of Trump said X but meant Y, this is fabricated quote dropped as a bombshell before a big election.

What should concern you even more is the number of media outlets who claimed to have independently verified the story.

Key Board · 2021-03-16, 18:53

But it doesn’t change the intent of the message?

What do you think “the right answer” means in this context.
Why do you think Georgian officials Intentionally leaked this to the public

“The Secretary of State’s Office’s first report about its investigator’s phone conversation with President Trump relied on the investigator’s recollection. Information about the content of the call was never presented as a word-for-word transcript. After hearing the tape, it’s clear that her recollection accurately portrayed the president’s assertions that there was fraud to uncover and that she would receive praise for doing so.” Deputy Secretary of State, Jordan Fuchs

Because they wanted to cover their own butt. It was that incriminating

It’s the same reason they leaked “get her out”

//

cyberdemon · 2021-03-16, 19:36

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/gop-lawmak...022643102.html

Pot calling the kettle black?

ramlaen · 2021-03-17, 14:19

Your daily dose of pravda, faking answering questions from the press (watch the mics).

YouTube

https://youtu.be/g0139UytcR8

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Board

But it doesn’t change the intent of the message?

What do you think “the right answer” means in this context.
Why do you think Georgian officials Intentionally leaked this to the public

“The Secretary of State’s Office’s first report about its investigator’s phone conversation with President Trump relied on the investigator’s recollection. Information about the content of the call was never presented as a word-for-word transcript. After hearing the tape, it’s clear that her recollection accurately portrayed the president’s assertions that there was fraud to uncover and that she would receive praise for doing so.” Deputy Secretary of State, Jordan Fuchs

Because they wanted to cover their own butt. It was that incriminating

It’s the same reason they leaked “get her out”

//

Isn't that the wonderful thing about mindreading intent? You get to pick the interpretation.

Eisdrache · 2021-03-17, 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Key Board

But it doesn’t change the intent of the message?

What do you think “the right answer” means in this context.
Why do you think Georgian officials Intentionally leaked this to the public

“The Secretary of State’s Office’s first report about its investigator’s phone conversation with President Trump relied on the investigator’s recollection. Information about the content of the call was never presented as a word-for-word transcript. After hearing the tape, it’s clear that her recollection accurately portrayed the president’s assertions that there was fraud to uncover and that she would receive praise for doing so.” Deputy Secretary of State, Jordan Fuchs

Because they wanted to cover their own butt. It was that incriminating

It’s the same reason they leaked “get her out”

Remember, this is the same guy blaming democrats for a "hoax" after Trump and his cronies with their lies incited the storm on the capitol.

ramlaen · 2021-03-17, 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Remember, this is the same guy blaming democrats for a "hoax" after Trump and his cronies with their lies incited the storm on the capitol.

Are you referring to the 'Fine People' hoax? It was one of many lies presented as evidence at the second impeachment trial. I hope you aren't asserting lies are okay if the letter next to someones name is the correct one.

Eisdrache · 2021-03-17, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramlaen

Are you referring to the 'Fine People' hoax? It was one of many lies presented as evidence at the second impeachment trial. I hope you aren't asserting lies are okay if the letter next to someones name is the correct one.

Someone remind me who claimed that the 2020 presidential election was fraudulent with no evidence whatsoever.

Guardian Enzo · 2021-03-28, 00:18

Small wonder AOC types are starting to play nice. Be on the train or be under it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...adical-winning

Magin · 2021-03-29, 09:39

Joe is doing surprisingly damned well-not perfect, but I'm still a Bernie fan and yet have to give Biden some huge kudos.

To be totally fair, I would call the AOC types products of social media. They have snappy lines, want change in a day or two (because that's how fast social media moves), and know what audience to appeal to. That sounds good to the denizens of the Internet, where 24 hours is a loooong time. But, it doesn't apply that well to the real world- they might want radical change overnight and not give an eff about anyone who opposes them- really, call them the enemy- but in the actual Congress where you are going to work with people who may not share the same enthusiasm or outlook... you gotta play the political game or else everything breaks down. Probably the same reason why so many on both sides complain: you gotta play a bit nicely and be prepared to not get everything you want.

2021-03-09, 16:00	Link #223
ganbaru books-eater youkai Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity	Ryan Grim: ENTIRE Nevada Dem Party Raids Coffers, RESIGNS After DSA Wins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HPkHiKiYd0 <p>No iframe support, please <a href="http://youtu.be/1HPkHiKiYd0">watch on YouTube</a>.</p> __________________

2021-03-09, 18:46	Link #225
The Green One Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010	It's true, places everywhere are jacking up their prices as high as they can and as fast as they can while wages stay stagnant while "experts" scratch their heads and wonder why Americans mysteriously get poorer and poorer somehow. __________________

2021-03-11, 03:29	Link #228
Magin #1 Akashiya Moka Fan Author Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Where magic is real Age: 35	So, Biden should be signing the bill to get stimulus checks out before the end of the week. Okay, I'll give him that, and a dirty look at all the Republicans. And in other news, Merrick Garland was confirmed as AG in a 70-30 vote. Even freakin' Mitch McConnel said yes... and then I was reminded that Garland is by no means progressive. Hence the reason why Obama originally nominated him as SC judge... but let's be honest here, because the GOP is a bunch of racists they said no to anything a black man dared to propose. Remember, Obamacare was originally Romneycare. __________________ Gifted...or Cursed? R+V fanfic- Chapter 4 of A Water Bride and a Vampire is now up at FF.net! All fans of Inner or Outer Moka, come join her fanclub!

2021-03-16, 12:33	Link #231
Key Board Carbon Join Date: Nov 2003	Huge “Get her out tomorrow. I don't care. Get her out tomorrow. Take her out. OK? Do it“ energy here Trump doesn’t explicitly say things, but you know what he means // __________________ "Legitimacy is based on three things. First of all, the people who are asked to obey authority have to feel like they have a voice—that if they speak up, they will be heard. Second, the law has to be predictable. There has to be a reasonable expectation that the rules tomorrow are going to be roughly the same as the rules today. And third, the authority has to be fair. It can’t treat one group differently from another.” Malcolm Gladwell

2021-03-16, 18:53	Link #233
Key Board Carbon Join Date: Nov 2003	But it doesn’t change the intent of the message? What do you think “the right answer” means in this context. Why do you think Georgian officials Intentionally leaked this to the public “The Secretary of State’s Office’s first report about its investigator’s phone conversation with President Trump relied on the investigator’s recollection. Information about the content of the call was never presented as a word-for-word transcript. After hearing the tape, it’s clear that her recollection accurately portrayed the president’s assertions that there was fraud to uncover and that she would receive praise for doing so.” Deputy Secretary of State, Jordan Fuchs Because they wanted to cover their own butt. It was that incriminating It’s the same reason they leaked “get her out” // __________________ "Legitimacy is based on three things. First of all, the people who are asked to obey authority have to feel like they have a voice—that if they speak up, they will be heard. Second, the law has to be predictable. There has to be a reasonable expectation that the rules tomorrow are going to be roughly the same as the rules today. And third, the authority has to be fair. It can’t treat one group differently from another.” Malcolm Gladwell

2021-03-09, 12:39	Link #221
Sheba RUN, YOU FOOLS! Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost Age: 44	Their argument is mostly, if you are poor and working 3 jobs to survive, its your fault and have nothing but yourself to blame. In other words, "f* the poor".

2021-03-09, 13:46	Link #222
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	Strange, the argument I've often heard (and a sensible one) is that it wouldn't really have a major impact on the livelihoods of those making minimum wage. Increase the minimum wage and you drastically increase the expenses for the companies, who then have to increase the cost of their products in order to maintain their profit and pay the employees. Increasing minimum wage may improve things slightly, but not by that much. You have to think about effects beyond the most immediate and obvious.

2021-03-10, 11:59	Link #227
TinyRedLeaf Moving in circles Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Singapore Age: 49	^ I see that kind of "explanation" very often. It's a very appealing argument, especially since it taps into the narrative of evil rich people versus hardworking, long-suffering poor people. Unfortunately, though, it's only a half-truth at best. It can happen, but only in very dysfunctional circumstances. The scenario you describe can only be sustained in a closed economy with substantial collusion between rival businesses. Or, in a worst-case scenario, an economy where one or a few major businesses have a complete chokehold on all supply. As long as you have a relatively open economy, where businesses compete over factors like price and quality, the competitive pressure will tend to drive prices down over time. It's not feasible for companies to "intentionally inflate their pricing" — ie, profiteer — over a long term, as long as you have an open economy. Rivals will eventually chip away at the price, and offer a rival product or service at what a greater number of customers would consider a fair cost. ========= The challenge of tackling low wages in a developed economy requires a multi-prong solution that, realistically, would have to be rolled out over several years. In practice, such a plan is unlikely to survive an electoral cycle. So, what you have instead are politicians offering a simplistic solution to a complex problem. As a matter of principle, I fully agree that more should be done to lift people out of the poverty trap. As a matter of practice, though, I feel that a minimum-wage policy is only a band-aid, and offers only short-term relief, and doesn't address the root causes of poverty. What is needed are things like greater investment in education, to train people in skills that have long-term economic value; public investment in strategic economic sectors, to foster the growth of companies that can create high-value, well-paying jobs. More public investment in not just the physical infrastructure that would attract private investors, but also in institutional infrastructure that would allow for robust regulation of private enterprise, and ensure that economic gain is shared equitably. In other words, all the work that a functional government is supposed to do. Why is it that a cleaner, who does back-breaking physical labour, in what is actually an essential job, is paid so much less than a college graduate with skills in demand in the IT industry? Why is that the cleaner is also earning so much less than an NBA star, blessed with athletic talent honed by years of training? It's because the cleaner's job requires comparatively far less skill and knowledge. The cleaner, despite his essential role is — to put it bluntly — disposable and easily replaceable. The day will come, in fact, when such labour will be almost completely replaced with automated machines that can do the job with greater consistency. Lifting wages therefore requires a government to partner with businesses, if need be, and find ways of training workers, and giving them a pathway to more complex, value-added roles that command a premium. Easier said than done, but it is the only sustainable way forward. The hard truth is that the more irreplaceable you are as labour, the more power you have to command a better pay. At the same time, what's really needed is a better narrative for getting people to see that everyone, rich and poor alike, has a stake in keeping the economy healthy. Move away from the politics of envy, and move away as well as from the selfish belief that individual success is all down to individual effort. The latter, I think, is an especially big challenge for American culture — successful individuals tend to be blind to how they owe a large part of their success to the opportunities provided by a healthy society and robust public infrastructure. It's only when you understand this that you'll understand why you have to give back. It is a moral duty. But of course, people are not angels. Still, the good news is that you don't really need everyone to be on board the idea. All you need is a critical mass of individuals who pay it back or pay it forward, and eventually you'll get a virtuous circle. That circle has been broken in the US. It'll be good to see it come back again one day.

2021-03-15, 17:32	Link #230
ramlaen Senior Member Join Date: May 2006	https://thehill.com/homenews/media/5...p-georgia-call Yet one more hoax added to the pile, after so many does it phase you anymore?

2021-03-16, 19:36	Link #234
cyberdemon Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2007	https://www.yahoo.com/gma/gop-lawmak...022643102.html Pot calling the kettle black? __________________

2021-03-29, 09:39	Link #240
Magin #1 Akashiya Moka Fan Author Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Where magic is real Age: 35	Joe is doing surprisingly damned well-not perfect, but I'm still a Bernie fan and yet have to give Biden some huge kudos. To be totally fair, I would call the AOC types products of social media. They have snappy lines, want change in a day or two (because that's how fast social media moves), and know what audience to appeal to. That sounds good to the denizens of the Internet, where 24 hours is a loooong time. But, it doesn't apply that well to the real world- they might want radical change overnight and not give an eff about anyone who opposes them- really, call them the enemy- but in the actual Congress where you are going to work with people who may not share the same enthusiasm or outlook... you gotta play the political game or else everything breaks down. Probably the same reason why so many on both sides complain: you gotta play a bit nicely and be prepared to not get everything you want. __________________ Gifted...or Cursed? R+V fanfic- Chapter 4 of A Water Bride and a Vampire is now up at FF.net! All fans of Inner or Outer Moka, come join her fanclub!