Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[-Antares-]

No, actually, it did not. They had a motivation, and they acted on that motivation. That does not make it right. If someone punched you in the face or stole your purse, punching them back isn't going to solve anything except maybe qwell your anger. But nobody's going to sympathize with you if you do that.

Time and time again, they showed how horrible the effects of what Windermere (and NUNS!) were doing. Because the point is that war is not an answer. Did you notice that Hayate, our lovely main protagonist, was completely against killing people? And that Mirage followed in his lead? Don't you think that means something? Even just a little?

What we saw of the main Windermerean characters was mixed feelings up the wazoo about the war, and they did a lot of damage to themselves as well with their whole war plan. The ones who were all for the war were the ones who had been directly affected by previous events with NUNS (Keith and Bogue come to mind immediately). They weren't driven by logic. They were driven by grief. Did you even watch the show? Like, not just with your eyes, but with your brain? Windermere were the villains in Delta. They were the ones who declared war. They were the ones who were in the wrong. I thought this was all made very clear, personally.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by -Antares-

No, actually, it did not. They had a motivation, and they acted on that motivation. That does not make it right. If someone punched you in the face or stole your purse, punching them back isn't going to solve anything except maybe qwell your anger. But nobody's going to sympathize with you if you do that.

Time and time again, they showed how horrible the effects of what Windermere (and NUNS!) were doing. Because the point is that war is not an answer. Did you notice that Hayate, our lovely main protagonist, was completely against killing people? And that Mirage followed in his lead? Don't you think that means something? Even just a little?

What we saw of the main Windermerean characters was mixed feelings up the wazoo about the war, and they did a lot of damage to themselves as well with their whole war plan. The ones who were all for the war were the ones who had been directly affected by previous events with NUNS (Keith and Bogue come to mind immediately). They weren't driven by logic. They were driven by grief. Did you even watch the show? Like, not just with your eyes, but with your brain? Windermere were the villains in Delta. They were the ones who declared war. They were the ones who were in the wrong. I thought this was all made very clear, personally.

Well in that case the villains won in the end. They got away with mass murder and still have control of most of the cluster.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by -Antares-

No, actually, it did not. They had a motivation, and they acted on that motivation. That does not make it right. If someone punched you in the face or stole your purse, punching them back isn't going to solve anything except maybe qwell your anger. But nobody's going to sympathize with you if you do that.

Time and time again, they showed how horrible the effects of what Windermere (and NUNS!) were doing. Because the point is that war is not an answer. Did you notice that Hayate, our lovely main protagonist, was completely against killing people? And that Mirage followed in his lead? Don't you think that means something? Even just a little?

What we saw of the main Windermerean characters was mixed feelings up the wazoo about the war, and they did a lot of damage to themselves as well with their whole war plan. The ones who were all for the war were the ones who had been directly affected by previous events with NUNS (Keith and Bogue come to mind immediately). They weren't driven by logic. They were driven by grief. Did you even watch the show? Like, not just with your eyes, but with your brain? Windermere were the villains in Delta. They were the ones who declared war. They were the ones who were in the wrong. I thought this was all made very clear, personally.

You made a very good post. One of the best attempts I've seen at trying to make sense out of how Delta's war narrative was written. Your points on Hayate and Mirage are particularly well-made. You're right about Hayate and Mirage, and their attitudes were largely reflected in Walkure and the rest of Delta Squadron. None of the main protagonists liked killing, as even Messer saw it as simply necessary to keep his allies/friends alive.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Convoy

I'm surprised that the NUN would be willing to allow Epsilon to continue operating in NUN space given that Epsilon sold military hardware to Windermere. One would think that the NUN would strongarm them into submission given that they're willing to resort to other kinds of shit.

Epsilon has a LOT of data on protoculture ruins to trade for clemency

[Thess]

There is an anti-war message.

Bad guys got painted as bad guys without redeeming features and got blew up by their own weapons. The misguided former victims of those bad guys who started a new war, as direct consequence of their suffering, survived after enduring some losses, but they are willing to negotiate. Their portrayal was misguided and tragic instead of evil like happened with the NUNS. Good guys and protagonists (...in name sometimes unfortunately) survived and got their home back and a happier ending.

The anti-war message is clear: use weapons of destruction to try to 'solve' your problems, and you create Var which is a plague in the whole galaxy and has been for 8 years. The Vajra Queen left because of NUNS hostilities and thus... var was a consequence of fold bacteria now taking humanoid hosts because they don't have their bugs buddies. Because of their refusal to Gramia's peaceful negotiation and their greed, ignorance, xenophobia and violence, they tormented Windermere and went to war with them, the consequence of that war created an unresolved hatred and grudge that came back to bite them in the ass seven years later. Everything wrong in the show is direct consequence of the NUNS' trigger-happy policies, corruption and illegal activities. Windermere grudge and Var were their creation.

Walkure was a cure. Against var. Against the Windermere's grudge too (look how uplift Keith and Bogue act in the end: completely free from their burden of the past; thanks to the songs). Damage is done, but might get better. Warning signs were all there, when Mirage and Arad had a background of quitting the NUNS for not being comfortable there anymore. When Hayate's father, a good man, betrayed them. Of course Windermere actions aren't right, however, they are actions born from the hatred and violence the NUNS inflicted and what they have kept inflicting (what did they do when they first appeared in the show? They tried to bomb Ragna).

Fortunately, the galaxy knows their higher ups are liars and war criminals now. I doubt Epsilon will have any trouble with the law when heads are going to start to roll in that organization for sure first. Of course in a more realistic setting, the corruption will continue, but we'll see where Kawamori is going with this, because he's aware of the meta portrayal of Macross (as fiction of history), so he has intentions when he chooses such unambiguous bad portrayal which is fictional in itself. I feel that Delta is a show meant to give us a new world building rather than a story of characters, if it makes sense. There are key elements about it: most important singer isn't human, most important pilot isn't human. While Hayate is human, he seems less than a hero and protagonist and more like an audience surrogate POV to Freyja's and Keith's actions.

In a way, it's showing the 'dark side' of earth presence in the galaxy. Earthlings aren't enlightening anyone anymore. They are driving away species (Vajra) or making them embrace war instead of peace (Windermere). Frankly, I kind of like it. It's pretty realistic.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Thess

In a way, it's showing the 'dark side' of earth presence in the galaxy. Earthlings aren't enlightening anyone anymore. They are driving away species (Vajra) or making them embrace war instead of peace (Windermere). Frankly, I kind of like it. It's pretty realistic.

Make them embrace war instead of peace. So Windermereans apparently have no moral agency of their own. I guess that's why you seem to think they shouldn't be held responsible for anything.

And wow, what a dark misanthropic vision you seem to have of Macross. And I don't see how it's any more realistic than what Star Trek has given us.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hayate, Kaname, Makina, and Reina are all humans, is that correct? I'd certainly take their moral values over those of any Windermerean not named "Freyja Wion". Three fifths of Walkure are humans, and they're bringing more happiness and enlightenment to other people than what Windermere did, that's for sure.

As for NUNs... Are they or are they not still uplifting planets by giving them greater technology? Apparently giving alien people loads of technology is a selfish and xenophobic act now, who knew?

And I can't believe the way you're bringing up the vajra. What the hell do you expect people to do when rampaging giant alien insects go around killing people for no apparent reason? Geez, man...

[-Antares-]

As for NUNs... Are they or are they not still uplifting planets by giving them greater technology? Apparently giving alien people loads of technology is a selfish and xenophobic act now, who knew?

To be fair, this sort of thing can easily be a problem. It can destroy existing culture, and depending on how it's implemented, integration into the "invading" culture could become... well, just think of how the First Nations/Native Americans were treated. There are aspects of culture that are extremely important to some groups of people, and I'm not sure how much we know about what kind of "enlightenment" was given to Windermere beyond some technology, or how they actually felt about that. Perhaps someone who read the novels/manga/whatever would have a better idea of that, but I do seem to recall Bogue or someone making a rather angry remark about the "culture" NUNS introduced to Windermere in one of the earlier episodes.

This sort of thing has actually already been criticized before in a bit in Macross Zero. Not sure if you've seen that, but let's just say that not everyone in it is happy when electricity, weapons, and the like are introduced to their land.

The Vajra Queen left because of NUNS hostilities and thus... var was a consequence of fold bacteria now taking humanoid hosts because they don't have their bugs buddies. Because of their refusal to Gramia's peaceful negotiation and their greed, ignorance, xenophobia and violence, they tormented Windermere and went to war with them, the consequence of that war created an unresolved hatred and grudge that came back to bite them in the ass seven years later. Everything wrong in the show is direct consequence of the NUNS' trigger-happy policies, corruption and illegal activities. Windermere grudge and Var were their creation.

The Vajra didn't leave because NUNS were being jerks. They left because the main trio were finally able to get through to them. To quote one of Sheryl Nome's songs, "it's all about communication."

As for NUNS being behind Windermere's hostilities... So what? That's like a child saying "oh but that boy starting throwing rocks first so it's his fault, not mine!" I don't believe for a second that what NUNS did to Windermere is comparable to what Windermere did during Delta either way. And they still made the choice to escalate the tensions to war again. You can sympathize with Windermere all you want, but they're still wrong from a pacifist point of view. And that's why Kawamori made sure they completely crumbled from within after committing atrocity after atrocity. Kinda funny how that worked out for NUNS, too, getting literally blown up by themselves. Maybe, just maybe, that means both parties can be wrong.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by -Antares-

To be fair, this sort of thing can easily be a problem.

Sure. That's why you have the Prime Directive in Star Trek.

Nonetheless, it seems unfair to me to accuse NUNs of being greedy and xenophobic when they're giving advanced technology to far less developed alien races. Now, I'm sure NUNs are hoping that they'll derive some benefit to sharing this technology to less developed alien races. NUNs probably hopes that the technologically uplifted people might make good allies/soldiers in the future. This is still less selfish and more altruistic than a much simpler and more brutal approach that I'll get to now.

If NUNs were truly defined by "greed, ignorance, xenophobia and violence" then they'd simply go into Windermere, take over the planet, turn the native population into closely monitored slave labor, and kill any Windermere native who resisted. But I don't get the impression that NUNs did that (if NUNs did do this, I'd expect Windermere's leadership to talk about this at least as much as they do their planet's scar). And NUNs were certainly capable of this before they gave Windermere more advanced technology.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Nonetheless, it seems unfair to me to accuse NUNs of being greedy and xenophobic when they're giving advanced technology to far less developed alien races.

The issue is: NUNS is very corrupt.

For instance, Windermere is peaceful even once NUNS lands on their planet. The possibility (again, this is key) of Windermere one day becoming a powerful enemy because of their technology (and their Star Singer), an illegal dimensional airhead is brought onto Windermere by NUNS without clearance and even as Wright does all he can for avoiding doing as ordered (dropping it on the capitol), NUNS does it for him.

Could NUNS have negotiated with Windermere prior to this incident? Yes. Based on flashbacks from Freyja, people didn't have an issue with Earthlings prior to the bombing incident.

Then, NUNS decides upon repeating their 7-year-old mistake by bringing dimensional airheads (illegal or not) to Ragna and endangering civilians in order to bring down Windermere. Never mind reactive airheads, which are less likely to be an issue, let's drop dimensional airheads on the planet...

And, who the hell is okaying any of this?
The corrupt NUNS guy who blew up the ruins and endangered the ecosystem itself on Ragna in episode 13 all of researching those ruins (which leads to nothing in the anime, btw) is the one who believes this is a good idea in episode 25.

Windermere might be "mind raping" people; however, at least those people live. NUNS' solutions for things kill people, rob them of their very existence. I'd argue neither side is less accountable for their actions.

That said, I'll look forward to how the next Macross will handle NUNS...

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Then, NUNS decides upon repeating their 7-year-old mistake by bringing dimensional airheads (illegal or not) to Ragna and endangering civilians in order to bring down Windermere.

No, it's not repeating the same mistake. The situation is far different now than it was during Windermere's war for independence. Windermere is now a severe threat to the entire rest of the galaxy. There is a very real possibility that Windermere is aiming for permanent mental enslavement of the entire galaxy (and that is in fact what Roid was aiming for, more or less). I think its a bit much to demonize people for turning to desperate measures given such an incredibly desperate situation.

NUNs can certainly be criticized harshly for what it attempted 7 years ago, but in Episode 25 of this show? I definitely don't think things are as black-and-white as you and Thess make them out to be.

Windermere might be "mind raping" people; however, at least those people live.

Not all of them live. Windermere frequently uses var to get its victims to kill themselves. And besides, what kind of life is it to be turned into a seemingly mindless zombie puppet operating solely under the strings of your controller? Some people here severely understate just how absolutely horrible and nightmarish this is. There are people that would choose death over this, and I myself would certainly consider it. One good moment of poetic justice in this episode was the Aerial Knights getting a taste of their own mind-controlling medicine, and they certainly didn't like it, did they?

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

The issue is: NUNS is very corrupt.

For instance, Windermere is peaceful even once NUNS lands on their planet. The possibility (again, this is key) of Windermere one day becoming a powerful enemy because of their technology (and their Star Singer), an illegal dimensional airhead is brought onto Windermere by NUNS without clearance and even as Wright does all he can for avoiding doing as ordered (dropping it on the capitol), NUNS does it for him.

Could NUNS have negotiated with Windermere prior to this incident? Yes. Based on flashbacks from Freyja, people didn't have an issue with Earthlings prior to the bombing incident.

Then, NUNS decides upon repeating their 7-year-old mistake by bringing dimensional airheads (illegal or not) to Ragna and endangering civilians in order to bring down Windermere. Never mind reactive airheads, which are less likely to be an issue, let's drop dimensional airheads on the planet...

And, who the hell is okaying any of this?
The corrupt NUNS guy who blew up the ruins and endangered the ecosystem itself on Ragna in episode 13 all of researching those ruins (which leads to nothing in the anime, btw) is the one who believes this is a good idea in episode 25.

Windermere might be "mind raping" people; however, at least those people live. NUNS' solutions for things kill people, rob them of their very existence. I'd argue neither side is less accountable for their actions.

That said, I'll look forward to how the next Macross will handle NUNS...

I think some people do not have the timeline quite right. Nuking Windermere did not start the rebellion, it ended because the NUNS withdrew after it. The Windies were rebelling for four main reasons as far as I can tell. NUNS wanted to control their religious sites, control their sole natural resource, send their young men off to die in foreign wars, and just by contact with NUNS it was eating away at their medieval class structure.

The thing is that NUNS had a good reason for three of those things and could not do much about the other one. NUNS wanted to control their religious sites because they were a giant mind control array that threatened the entire galaxy. NUNS wanted to control their sole natural resource because it was the equivalent of weapon grade nuclear material just laying around in heaps on the ground. NUNS wanted to send their young men away to foreign wars to keep everyone including the Windies safe from the Zentraedi who could easily wipe all non-zentraedi life from the galaxy. And their medieval class structure needed to change for their good.

But I think the real reason for the first and second wars was that NUNS just by existing removed the Windies from being the center of the universe. You can see from their treatment of their conquered worlds that they had no problem doing much more egregious versions of the same things to other people for less reason.

[Dark Wing]

I can kind of agree with a lot of the above points Megawolf has given. After all the Windermereans don't seem very willing and open to negotiating until the end of the story. I can just imagine what they may have been like during first contact.

Oh and we are getting a little off topic again why don't we move this to the appropriate thread before the mods come dow on us again?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Not all of them live. Windermere frequently uses var to get its victims to kill themselves. And besides, what kind of life is it to be turned into a seemingly mindless zombie puppet operating solely under the strings of your controller? Some people here severely understate just how absolutely horrible and nightmarish this is. There are people that would choose death over this, and I myself would certainly consider it. One good moment of poetic justice in this episode was the Aerial Knights getting a taste of their own mind-controlling medicine, and they certainly didn't like it, did they?

If I am correct, killing themselves was before they could be controlled by a Wind singer. Prior to that, VAR infected ran amok. Once they were controlled it was only forces related to NUNs - meaning military targets - were being mind controlled to fight themselves.

If you can prove your thesis, I will revoke my words, but until now, at least windermere tried to avoid civil casualties fighting each other and their focus were on NUN. Secondly. It was not intended by Heinz, that the knights get network linked. This was purely an idea that Roid followed.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm skeptical that windermerans and humans can even have children.

Michael is quarter Zolan and in one magazine part Zentradi as well. If we go by Macross 7 the Protoculture made it possible for all their sub-races to procreate.

For one faction of Protoculture different races being able to have children is proof of peace.

The war hasn't ended. Much like Imperial Japan Heinz will only negotiate peace from a position of strength. After what Windermere did the galaxy would declare them enemy of all humanity alongside Macross Galaxy. Robbing people of their free will makes you enemy of everybody.

Thing is with their fleet much destroyed and being abandoned by Epsilon they are at a precarious position. The NUN won't let them have the Sigur Valens as it proves to be too dangerous.

Heinz himself doesn't have much to live for. I can see with these dangers and being enslaved themselves a Windermerean civil war could be inevitable.

The Kingdom of Wind lied to to the Windermerean people and has brought war twice to it.

Not to mention their economy is ruined.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Make them embrace war instead of peace. So Windermereans apparently have no moral agency of their own. I guess that's why you seem to think they shouldn't be held responsible for anything.

What makes you think that windermere has not tried this in the past? We can all be glad that we live in a time where war is not reaching us but look at regions around Syria, or the Ukraine. Or even Israel and Palestine. Peace talks only works if all are willing to do so but as the NUN have been ignoring this, the war was the way windermere has chosen.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And I can't believe the way you're bringing up the vajra. What the hell do you expect people to do when rampaging giant alien insects go around killing people for no apparent reason? Geez, man...

Think about why the Vajra went rampage. First when Mao Nome experimented, they could not talk at least not with everybody and they thought the humans held Ranka as their hostage.

In the main story of Frontier, humans were going deeper into territories where the Vajra lived. Now we can now go back and forth who is in right, but what rights does an emigration fleet have to settle or bypass territories which doesn't belong to them. When they were finally able to communicate (with the help of Ranka and not by the government), the Vajra left. Well, all could have been skipped if they were able to communicate from the beginning.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Think about why the Vajra went rampage. First when Mao Nome experimented, the could not talk at least not with everybody and they thought the humans held Ranka as their hostage.

You are wrong on the first part as what 117th had were Vajra corpses. On the second they didn't think Humans as individuals and Ranka was singing a love song which attracted them.

Killing several of them don't matter as they are a hivemind. Imagine their horror realizing they are killing individual sentients.

Their response is "Oh damn sorry we didn't know. Here have a our planet to make it square and Fold Bacteria so we can talk later if you leave this galaxy.".

[MgMaster]

Holy shit, that was an lack-luster ending. RIP Closure, and it's not like they didn't have plenty of time either.

I've been SO patient with Delta, for the love triangle, for some really good development for Hayate, Freja and especially Mirage to come in the 2nd half and never got it - all that wait during the 1st cour was for nothing.

The Windamere's side caught my attention the most eventually, yet not even they got proper closure in their conflict with the UN. Keith just stabs Roid in a brief moment while shedding a few tears and they both go off with a bang (at least dedicate another 2 minutes to that scene Delta...it was supposed to be a pretty emotional moment).

So what gives? We had 26 eps, so no excuses for little to no development, proper closure to both the large scale conflicts or the "love triangle". I was initially happy that I we were getting another Macross at all, but..c'mon, #notlikethis. This is NOT how I want to remember Macross. I gotta go watch Frontier again...

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

So what gives? We had 26 eps, so no excuses for little to no development, proper closure to both the large scale conflicts or the "love triangle".

Delta including so many! main plots or subplots in the first and second cour did not help because character arcs felt shoved aside in favor of plot, even if said plot is not carried out right (especially on conspiracies and war).

However, I'll argue the "love triangle" comes off properly in the context of how Delta is going about it. The "love triangle", in my opinion, is only in the eyes of the viewers, because it's painfully obvious how Hayate falls for Freyja early on (and how it's endgame from episode 3), meanwhile, Mirage unfortunately falls in love with Hayate (she falls in love with the person Freyja evolved him into). The "love triangle" is not about two girls fighting for his affection (neither girl is the type either way).

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And wow, what a dark misanthropic vision you seem to have of Macross. And I don't see how it's any more realistic than what Star Trek has given us.

Every Macross focuses how Earthling presence is a positive, Protoculture-given gift to the whole Galaxy (I mean as species, not as individual impact). They have the best aces and best singers (the most "racial" representation is a half or part zentraedi occasionally, like Guld, Mylenne or Ranka). This Macross seriously questions this and sets the question if they are really as good as you think they were. In the show, best pilot isn't an Earthling, and the savior singer isn't an Earthling. Just to put in perspective how much this changed. Remember that Macross Delta is like Saving the Private Ryan: a fiction of historical events rather than accurate events. There's a meta of a meta portrayal in question. Maybe the galaxy is tired of Earth.

Even if there were positive human characters, most of them, after 7 aren't from Earth anymore. Hayate seems to be from Eden, for example.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hayate, Kaname, Makina, and Reina are all humans, is that correct? I'd certainly take their moral values over those of any Windermerean not named "Freyja Wion". Three fifths of Walkure are humans, and they're bringing more happiness and enlightenment to other people than what Windermere did, that's for sure.

Uh no, Reina is a Zentraedi. You mean two, right? And the only ones relevant in Walkure were Freyja and Mikumo.

As for NUNs... Are they or are they not still uplifting planets by giving them greater technology? Apparently giving alien people loads of technology is a selfish and xenophobic act now, who knew?

I find that pretense incredibly condescending in general.

And I can't believe the way you're bringing up the vajra. What the hell do you expect people to do when rampaging giant alien insects go around killing people for no apparent reason? Geez, man...

Sure, now they drove them away var is on their hands and is infecting everyone (what Windermere did is a 1% of the scope of what's ailing the whole Galaxy thanks to their enlightened 'saviors' with big guns).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If NUNs were truly defined by "greed, ignorance, xenophobia and violence" then they'd simply go into Windermere, take over the planet, turn the native population into closely monitored slave labor, and kill any Windermere native who resisted. But I don't get the impression that NUNs did that (if NUNs did do this, I'd expect Windermere's leadership to talk about this at least as much as they do their planet's scar). And NUNs were certainly capable of this before they gave Windermere more advanced technology.

That was in the plans, though. That's why they were going to deplete Windermere of their Aerial Knights by sending them off to fight in a faraway point of the galaxy, leaving Windermere defenseless to establish a puppet government. Yup. So... It wasn't Gramia who one day awoke and said "Man, this is a great day to start to war." He tried to negotiate peace and was refused and laughed and mocked by NUNS time and time again. Gramia is rightfully pissed off. Windermere got their technology from Epsilon and not the NUNS, by the way. And the novel leaves very clear one average Windermere pilot equals maaaany of average Earthlings. They are just unmatched. That's why they started to use illegal Ghosts against them because the Windemerians pushed them around and completely obliterated them in combat. Those fold runes and their top psysical skills are no joke.

Originally Posted by -Antares-

To be fair, this sort of thing can easily be a problem. It can destroy existing culture, and depending on how it's implemented, integration into the "invading" culture could become... well, just think of how the First Nations/Native Americans were treated. There are aspects of culture that are extremely important to some groups of people, and I'm not sure how much we know about what kind of "enlightenment" was given to Windermere beyond some technology, or how they actually felt about that. Perhaps someone who read the novels/manga/whatever would have a better idea of that, but I do seem to recall Bogue or someone making a rather angry remark about the "culture" NUNS introduced to Windermere in one of the earlier episodes.

This sort of thing has actually already been criticized before in a bit in Macross Zero. Not sure if you've seen that, but let's just say that not everyone in it is happy when electricity, weapons, and the like are introduced to their land.

I find pretty ignorant to think they should be glad or happy to be "enlightened" by an invading, aggressive force that disregard their culture and are after their natural resources. As you said, Macross criticized this before.

Spoiler for manga pages:

---

Colonialism story was really good, but didn't mesh well at all with Delta's other story about cheerful idols curing var and came off weirdly half-developed when put together. Just, IMO. Kawamori was clearly aiming to the dark side of culture shock. Making a species more warlike rather than pacify them (kind of opposite of Zentraedi culture shock effect). At least that's what it's clearly and heavily exposed. Even with Roid's insane plan, what was his goal? Peace.

Originally Posted by -Antares-

The Vajra didn't leave because NUNS were being jerks. They left because the main trio were finally able to get through to them. To quote one of Sheryl Nome's songs, "it's all about communication."

They left the Galaxy because they couldn't actually live in peace with humans thanks to the NUNS. What Delta claims happened in Frontier is closer to the movie (except SMS is completely innocent and fighting Galaxy, yeah, I rolled my eyes - whether this is a fact or an attempt of good publicity for SMS in fiction, we'll never know). They understood humans are sentient and didn't want war, but they left because they couldn't live at peace with thanks DUE to the actions of the NUNS (And Galaxy and Leon, who are associated with the NUNS anyway).

As for NUNS being behind Windermere's hostilities... So what? That's like a child saying "oh but that boy starting throwing rocks first so it's his fault, not mine!" I don't believe for a second that what NUNS did to Windermere is comparable to what Windermere did during Delta either way. And they still made the choice to escalate the tensions to war again. You can sympathize with Windermere all you want, but they're still wrong from a pacifist point of view. And that's why Kawamori made sure they completely crumbled from within after committing atrocity after atrocity. Kinda funny how that worked out for NUNS, too, getting literally blown up by themselves. Maybe, just maybe, that means both parties can be wrong.

The point isn't what Windermere did. There never was a question that what they did was wrong. The message is still that is all consequence of NUNS actions. NUNS are an organization that has become more damaging than positive over the years. Please tell me one good thing they have done since Macross 7 ended? Just one. All they do is either appear as incompetent jerks or moustache-twirling evil guys. This is far, far greater than anything Windermere did. How many Windermere are NUNS creating with their toxic touch? How many Evil series or Protodeviln will they release? How many pandemic will they unleash? All because they are unable to actually reach out for others, they seek to dominate them, chase what they can't understand or destroy them. Windermere, with all their defects, they actually started to reach out in the end. Keith and Bogue are proof of it.

The show wasn't questioning Windermere, it was portraying how they were driven into extreme for how they were treated in the past. Yes, and it's self-destructive for them, but it was like a warning and unabashed insulting and criticism toward the NUNS. Keith died a hero who chose to save the galaxy and his friend's soul, most important NUNS guy died as a war criminal mind controlled into self destruction.

[Convoy]

I thought of something. When Roid claimed at Heinz's coronation that they tried for 7 years to tell the galaxy the truth of the dimensional detonation and that the NUN crushed their voices, that was a damn lie. Windermere hacked the damn galactic Internet to broadcast the coronation. And for 7 years Windermere continued to its apples offworld. And Freyja sneaked past their border control to get offworld. If any Windermerean accepted Roid's claim at face value, then they're a damn idiot.

Originally Posted by Thess

Uh no, Reina is a Zentraedi.

I don't recall that ever being addressed.

I find that pretense incredibly condescending in general.

The show only ever indicated that peoples contacted by the NUN willingly accepted advanced technology. Sure it is part of the agenda to get ahold of more resources on planets, but I didn't see any Voldorians or Ragnans ever objecting to life with NUN technology.