Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[Selic]

My main grudge against Suzaku stems primarily from what he said to Lelouch after the Black Knights were unveiled. It's one thing to leave rescuing hostages and whatnot to the authorities, but it's another to let the incompetant authorities (At least in that situation) handle a crisis which it clearly wouldn't have handled well.

Suzaku's excuse? "They're shitty NOW, but it's fine if they get better, right?"

What about the people who DIE because of their incompetance/ways until they get better? Suzaku clearly dislikes Zero's needless bloodshed, but it's obvious he knows that people will die until he can get the Empire to reform. The sheer hypocrisy of his beliefs really gets at me.

[Santa Claus]

Originally Posted by Nanaya
Impossible is only a word the weak-willed use when things get hard.

Nope. It’s impossible for me to fly like Superman. But I’ll concede that Suzaku’s methods have the possibility of succeeding, however unlikely. So OK: it’s not impossible. It’s improbable. Extremely improbable, IMO.

Well, both Suzaku and Lulu are morally grey characters.

Understand that the Lancelot is Suzaku's PD, as well Euphemia and Cornelia I suppose.

Well yeah, that’s pretty much what I said/implied.

He's not in a position to do anything yet. So you can't really blame him. He wasn't given a Geas to make things easier for his climb now, right?

And? He would never have been in a position to do anything, if he had gone with his original ‘plan,’ and Zero wasn’t around. That’s the problem I have with him. More on this later.

Like what the series is showing us, Suzaku's fate is intertwined with Lulu's. I'm not really sure if that should be enough to just wail on the guy. Even if he didn't have Zero to confront, there are other insurgent groups in the area to fight for him. It'd take longer for Suzaku to achieve his goal, but that would also apply for Lulu had the man never gotten his Geass.

I’m wailing on his plan, not the man himself.

First of all, the Lancelot would likely not be used at all. This is just fanciful imagining, of course, but let’s consider the facts:

1) Clovis was on track to annihilate Ougi’s group.
2) Cornelia was on track to annihilate all groups.
3) Clovis didn’t want to use the Lancelot until almost his entire assault force was wiped out. If he does, he’s showing the Emperor not only how incompetent he himself is, but also how resourceful and useful Schniezel is. If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought this was Schniezel’s plan to discredit both Clovis and Cornelia: after all, what better way to show how weak the two are than to have them saved by an Eleven?
4) Cornelia didn’t want to use the Lancelot initially, either.

The only possible argument I see here is the fact that Clovis was not half the general his sister was, and thus he’d run into trouble with the JLF. More to the point, I believe it’s most likely that without the Lancelot, Suzaku might never have achieved a single thing.

I happen to think Lulu’s a bloody twit. However, the topic is: Do the Ends Justify the Means. I chose to focus my comparison on the Means both characters uses. I believe Lulu’s has a much higher chance of success than Suzaku’s.

Umm, how many times should Lulu be dead or captured by now if it weren't for his C.C. PD?

Are you counting only the times C.C. shows up, or are you including the times he places a Geas on people?

So? If a Number proves himself valuable in a government that values strength above all (even prejudice), then isn't that what exactly what Suzaku's aiming for?

The Numbers system is a very practical and logical way of creating administrative areas where assimilation of peoples into the the empire can take place. People will never be fully assimilated as long as they have their silly culture, identity and pride. Once these things are completely crushed, assimilation is made easier. Another logical way to create a united Imperial front.

OK. Well, it takes time – a LOT of time – to fully assimilate a people. Let’s not forget: the Japanese have a different skin tone, different culture, different everything. And while the Numbers system looks good on paper, in practice it becomes a convenient excuse for Britannians to look down on conquered peoples. After all, they’re not even a race anymore: just a number.

Cornelia is impressed by Suzaku enough to put him in her guard unit. She's way higher in rank than that superior you're talking about, who is already dead by the way.

Also, once an area is designated as a battlefield, everyone on the area becomes a combatant. It doesn't matter if that is an elderly person, woman, or, child. Why would soldiers make themselves any less effective in combat with things like mercy when mercy and kindness got carefree soldiers killed Vietnam and Afghanistan just because their opponents were women and children.

…

mm... so would that mean that the rest of the Britannians aren't all sheltered?

This is just another blanket approach to label people as evil. Just like how the American WW2 phrase "The only good Jap is a dead Jap." was coined. That is the kind of thinking that Suzaku wants to defeat.

A question: is Cornelia placing the Lancelot in her guard unit, or Suzaku? She can’t strip him of his mech, remember. If Schniezel decided to award the Lancelot to another pilot, one has to wonder whether Suzaku will keep his position for long.

And yes, his superior is dead. Killed by Lulu. Does it seem likely to you that, had he not been offed, he’d have ever recognized Suzaku? He’s obviously racist: he calls them beasts, for crying out loud. And racists aren’t easily swayed by pretty words and actions.

Britannia seems, first and foremost, to be a military dictatorship. It moves according to the will of a man who obviously believes in the tenets of Social Darwinism. A number designation is the signifier of a defeated nation – a country full of weaklings, in other words. Perhaps even genetically inferior, to the Purist. After all they had the sakuradite, but didn’t develop the Frames that won the war so easily.

And I commend Suzaku for his efforts. But I can’t help but add that it must be lovely to have absolutely everything magically going your way.

Well, Suzaku hasn't been taken down yet so that parallel isn't even parallel yet. If he fails, then you could brand that on him, but as of yet, he hasn't let up for the moment.

The parallel I’m referring to is the fact that both have arguably the same beliefs and are in the same initial situation. Stilicho is half barbarian, and had to work his way up the military ladder in Rome. He makes good progress, but then again he’s still half Roman – not pure Barbarian. Plus, he has a desperate Emperor on his side. And he’s still killed, despite being the only thing standing between the Western Empire and a good sacking. And despite his incredible prowess in war, the foederati are still reviled.

Well, the thing is, Suzaku has already gained Cornelia's trust so trying to backtrack is useless argument and even baseless.

I’m not backtracking, since my whole stance is Suzaku’s plan is unworkable in the absence of Zero. As I’ve said before, without the bogeyman of Zero creeping under the Britannians’ beds, he’d never have been in a position to gain anyone’s trust. Unless he comes out and says that this was all part of his calculations, I’m not going to place much stock on his initial plan.

Also, if I were in the middle of a battle, I'd shoot soldiers who weren't able to follow orders well. Why the brutal treatment? Because if soldiers don't follow as told, more of Cornelia's troops could've been put in harm's way. It is only logical military thinking. Being in the military isn't a charity organization. You're there to win with as little losses on your side while obliterating the other.

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. I couldn’t care less that Cornelia kills soldiers who can’t follow orders. I also don’t care about the collateral damage. All I’m saying is, Suzaku is trying to show Britannians that, as a HB, he can still follow orders as a member of the military. That’s a little strange: he is in effect showing that HBs can follow orders in the military, when all soldiers are expected to follow orders anyway. It’s his job, nationality notwithstanding. His plan seems to be to show that HBs can also do a job as well as any Britannian. OK…but let’s see... insubordination leads to death, so they better follow their orders to the letter, anyway.

You may not buy it but that's what the guy believes in. His is the harder path to take and so many people will find it easier to abandon any faith in Suzaku.

Also, there is a distinct difference between Hitler's armies and Britannia: one of them is out to cleanse the world of "subhumans", while one of them is out to conquer the world and subdue its peoples under the rule of one flag by the strong.

Hence, the prospects of making something happen is greater in the Britannian Empire than in Hitler's Reich.

He can believe in it all he wants. His is undeniably the harder path, as he’s trying to change a rigid social structure, not collapse it. Doesn’t make it any more believable.

The comparison actually makes sense, but I won’t bother explaining since it’s a potentially incendiary topic. For a better comparison, how about the Native Americans and Colonials? Or any of the ones suggested by the poster, coefficient, up above.

Or, for slightly more peaceful comparisons: let's take the Suffrage and the Civil Rights Movements. how long did it take for equality to take root, in a democratic nation? In the US, officials are elected by the people: thus, they have a vested interest in promoting whatever is popular at the moment. This is not the case for the Empire. The Emperor could care less what commoners think and want. He probably doesn't care much about the nobility, either.

Originally posted by Imperial

Wow just wow, only a few people actually understand the things behind some of the characters.

Let's also not forget that the Lancelot was constructed under the 2nd Imperial Prince. Yet, the Prince ALLOWED a number, whose not even suppose to pilot a KF, to pilot it despite the opposition of most of the Britannian officers. As Euphie's general stated, not even they can shove Suzuka off the board. When Cornelia first arrived she promoted Suzuka to Warrent Officer. And now he stands for another promotion. I would say he is literally a hero for HB's as it shows them that even they can rise to the top in the Britannian Empire. Cornelia stated firmly that she intends to win without numbers but we can see now that has changed. So yes he is changing the system and how people view HB's. Since Euphie shares his views she too will fight for change.

I'm surprised that people critize Suzkua for killing japanese soldiers, who are otherwise enemy combatants, while no one says a peep about Lelouch mudering japanese soldiers (Who otherwise are not his enemy) and killing civilians.

First of all, Code Geass is hardly Shakespeare. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: it’s painfully obvious what Suzaku wants, as well as how he plans to go about achieving it. He monologues on the subject practically every time he meets someone willing to listen. And let’s be honest: sure, Suzaku is a great HB. All HB should look up to him. Why, they can get where he is today, if they all get their hands on Frames that are generations ahead of anything the military and the resistances can field, and if they have connections with an influential Imperial Princess.

Firstly, we don’t know why Schniezel allows an injured Eleven to pilot his new mech. But here’s my crackpot theory for you:

The Emperor is a firm believer in social Darwinism. The strong dominate the weak. Always. Such is nature, and what is good for nature is good enough for him.

Now imagine the Second Prince. A bright enough man, if what the characters say can be believed. Why does he allow an Eleven to pilot the newest Frame?

Simple. Whatever honors an Eleven can gain is negated by the fact that he will always be a Number. A Britannian pilot can complicate things and actually rise to a position in which he can be a threat. What can an Eleven do, in the current political climate?

Now let’s consider Clovis and Cornelia, who are arguably his competitors. What does it tell the Emperor if these two need to rely on an Eleven – a son of a defeated nation, a Number – to win their battles for them? It not only makes them look weak and stupid, it makes Schniezel look strong for building the Lancelot and fielding it.


And before anyone says anything: even without the Geas ability, Lulu could have done damage to the Empire. He's a bloody prince, even if disinherited. If anything, that just makes him more desireable as a tool. With a court as cutthroat as the Empire's seems to be, I can only assume there are some families that might want to use an exiled prince as a figurehead once the current emperor dies. The only reason he can't/won't is that his sister likely would not have survived the attempt. However, this is all conjecture.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by antheonoileo

*Sigh* The problem, from the start, is not “trust”. What the Britannains feel about the Numbers, are what ppl think about creatures, or tool.
Do you trust your dog (that he is loyal) ? Do you trust your machine (that it is working) ? Do you trust your money (that it can buy food) ? Then do you think they are equal to you ?

*double sigh* The Numbers may be treated like dogs now, but UNLIKE a dog, a Number can prove that he is a Britannian's equal or better. Why? Because they are human, first and foremost. They HAVE the capacity to prove themselves as equals, UNLIKE dogs and machine tools.

If you still don't understand this, then you will never understand that people can change for the better.

If so, you have already completely denied the Britannians any chance for reform. If this principle applies in your real life, then that means that you also don't expect people to change if you re-educate them about the better things about compromise and cooperation rather than pure violence.

A very close-minded principle that is the cause of most wars in our world or even the Geass world.

“Not just”, but very important reason. Because she was a commoner, and the family supporting her went down, that she was unpowerful and can be killed. And you see the emperor’s attitude ? Like he knew that before.

No. The Emperor's reason for not protecting his wife was that he had no use for the weak. That is why he acts like a jerk. HE HAS NO USE FOR WEAK PEOPLE.

Suzaku is, in all ways, not as important, not as powerful as the empress. And “She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder” so if Suzaku wants a fall down of the structure, hundreds of years developed by Darwin’s crazy fans, what will happen to him ?

Ehh? You don't have to be as important as an Empress to create change. You only have to be there to make sure change occurs. Also, Suzaku isn't looking to destroy the succession system exactly. What he wants is to change the system in order to make the Elevens live a better life. You don't necessarily need to destroy the succession system for that, especially since he probably has the backing of the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th in line to the throne. Quite high in the ranks of royalty if you ask me.

Cornelia is not as powerful as you think. Moreover, if she knows about that, what she does first is to prevent Euphie, even by arresting and bringing her to a very far place.

Why would she get Euphemia arrested? Suzaku doesn't even need Euphemia for advancing the Elevens' cause if he gets Cornelia to put him in her favor. Remember that Cornelia is the Governor General of Area 11. Even at the very least, even if he can't help all Numbers, the Elevens may be helped. All that Suzaku has to do is to play his cards right.

Now I know why you support Suzaku. Because you support the Empire’s ideal. I have to declare that not all ppl, except you, the Britainian and a few others, think that “everyone is classified whether they are useful or not”. And besides, I dun think that respect and trust’s role is just to prove usefulness.

Umm, I only said the reality of this world. Everyone are tools for other people. Respect and trust is gained by people who prove themselves most useful. That is the TRUTH of this world (Real or Geass).

However, the Empire's ideal stands along the lines of the "strong devouring the weak", not the usefulness of people as tools.

So I don't get where you can just accuse me of supporting the Empire's "survival of the fittest" philosophy. What I said was a realistic approach to how people go around this world.

To my family and friends, I never consider whether they are useful or not. In my job, I still “use” those people who I don’t love, respect or trust, just because I think they are “useful” in some way. We cooperate because of our benefits, but if they intend to harm me, I won’t be kind to them. In Britanians’ mind, Suzaku is just like, no, even lower than these people to me, so if he goes against their system, *bang bang bang* he is dead

Heh, I sense hypocrisy in this entire paragraph. Isn't what your spouting just a prettied up version of what I said, while hiding the truth that you still use people to cooperate with you. And at the same breath, you will abandon those who are useless to you.

Yes, hypocrisy, indeed.

What can he be beside a Number pilot ? The husband of a princess, whose marriage will stop her from being a candidate to the throne ? He do not have brain/tactics to be a general. The only thing that may work is for him to gain some power by being the husband/very close subordinate of the governer (Euphie), provided that there are no interfere from other nobles. Though this is imposible in real life, it may happen in anime, but just because of Zero’s act.

A trusted general can become influential to the people who appoint them on such ranks.

If Suzaku gains Cornelia, and even the 2nd Prince's (even the Emperor's), utmost trust, then he can start influencing changes in the government with his sense of justice for equality of all and suppression of distrust/discrimination. This isn't as impossible as it sounds and this happens quite frequently in monarchies in our history.

OK. As you say so…

If you want to change the Nazis from inside, you will joined their army ? As a solder, you will try not to harm civilians, but (1) just killing the French, British, Russian, American… solders, who you think still allow chaos to cover the land of its invaded countries ? and (2) “not directly” but just clear the path for the army to kill civilians as you have defeated all the resisters (if you think they aren’t massacres, remember ep 1, 2, 3)

And you believe you are as white and pure as an angel ? You are not angry at your Nazis and not trying to prevent those massacres at all but you still be able to critize those resistance troops who kill your solders and your lords ? If you attack them, and they have to use some method to counterattack which will involve innocent civilians -yes they will feel regretful, and the victims can critize them- but do you have the right to do be angry with them ?

This is a flawed argument since I have already said in a previous post that Nazi Germany is distinctly different from the Britannian Empire where one side wants to cleanse the world of "subhumans", while the other one wants to rule the world under a single banner by the strong.

The Nazis would've never let me in their army had that happened and I'd probably be in a concentration camp.

To change a system, one condition must be set: A person must be able to enter said system to change things.

The Britannian Imperial Army has this condition for Numbers.

The Nazis do not, especially since their main principle is for mass murder and annihilation.

The Britannian Army kills and massacres people for military objectives, not for overglorified nonsense ideologies. They won't kill you if killing won't bring any victory to them.

Nazis just killed.

If you think peace is that much important, tell your Gov and ppl to surrender whenever another country wants to invade your own. And if the invaders feel like killing your people, prevent them from resist. And if they still resist, kill them as they bring chaos to that peaceful colony.

Heh. Another baseless argument for this thread.

Area 11 has already been a colony for 7 years running. At this time, we already know that, at the very least, there has already been 7 more areas overrun by the Imperials. (Area 18 = Mideast?)

Fighting invaders is something that cannot be avoided. In fact, I encourage battling to the death so the only the victors will be left behind and all semblance of the old rule will have disappeared. Makes for easier assimilation.

But when a country has already been beaten, and when said invaders are trying to improve the economy of said conquered region, further resistance is only countering any more development which can help the conquered peoples.

The war already ended 7 years ago with a resounding Britannian victory. Is there even any more need to further distrust and discord when the fruits of progress can be obtained by everyone in exchange for the loss of silly national pride?

[coefficient]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

But when a country has already been beaten, and when said invaders are trying to improve the economy of said conquered region, further resistance is only countering any more development which can help the conquered peoples.

The war already ended 7 years ago with a resounding Britannian victory. Is there even any more need to further distrust and discord when the fruits of progress can be obtained by everyone in exchange for the loss of silly national pride?

National pride? More like personal dignity. Elevens who do not gain Britannian citizenship are forced to live in abject squalor amidst tottering ruins that should rightfully be condemned; Elevens who do gain Britannian citizenship are subject to constant discrimination, racism and humiliation. In their own country.

On the topic of progress: Yes, infrastructure and such are improved, but to whose benefit? Historically this was always to the benefit of the local transplanted oligarchy from the homeland and perhaps the local chieftain or emir or raja. Overall the lives of ordinary Japanese are -much- worse off under the Britannian regime than under the previous government, and they aren't seriously safer either (the Chinese federation is a world power, remember, and they're just across the Sea of Japan). I figure the people reaping the benefits of "progress" are the Britannian East India Company, Sakuradite Extraction Division or whoever as well as the 12 dudes of the local quisling committie that is apparently the intermediary between the servile Eleven population and the conquerors. Conquest very rarely works to the benefit of the conquered; the only example I can think of is maybe the Italians under Rome because they became the heartland of a vast empire, and eventually citizenship was extended to them (but not for many generations to come).

In summation: though the "economy" may be better, little of that prosperity reaches the ordinary Japanese, and likely would not due to the inherent racism of the administration, the Britannian outlook, etc. The only Elevens likely to benefit from the increased Sakuradite production or whatever are the wealthy merchant families who have become Britannian citizens. For the rest of the country, it's lose your dignity to work as a hot dog seller in the walled-off Britannian districts or live in a bunch of ruins. This is not progress.

To make yet another historical comparison, think China under the humiliating treaties with Europe. They forced open the ports of China and allowed free trade therein; this is arguably a good thing economically, but the only people benefiting were the transplanted European merchant families and Chinese merchant oligarchs, though I suppose it guaranteed the Chinese stoner community a cheap source of Opium. Within those European protectorates the natives were subject to constant racism (example: signs on restaurants saying "no dogs or chinese allowed"), etc. The analogy is not perfect but I think it fits this example.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by coefficient

Yes, there were enlightened despots, liberal absolute monarchs who gave their citizens freedoms without having a constitution limit their powers to force them to give those freedoms. This is one of the great benefits of the institution of monarchy, to my way of thinking, though the institution's negatives outweigh the positive.

Negative? Like lack of freedom for the masses? Freedoms are granted only to those who have the knowledge and responsibility to use them. Which is why some democracies tend to become brainless mob rules in third world nations. If a monarchy remained enlightened (not liberal so much as progressive), people under their rule will prosper. The only negative I can truly see is that monarchies require strong leaders or they fall. But being enlightened doesn't mean you're weak.

However, the point remains that the ascent of a liberal monarch who is not willing to bump off his (or her) enemies is only possible in a strictly hereditary context. Britannia, as was established early on in the series (the speech episode, I think) is not a strictly hereditary monarchy; rather, the kids battle it out and the strongest takes the throne. In this context it is impossible for a pacifist king or queen like Euphie or converted-Cornelia to ascend to the throne, as they will simply be killed by their less scrupulous siblings. You called this defeatist rhetoric; in this case, by what mechanism does our theoretical queenmaker Suzaku enact reform? The only possible method I can think of (you may be able to think of a different one) is him gaining charisma-Geass and talking all the various petty princelings into believing in his pacifist vision. But as every good political theorist knows, an anarchic regime is only peaceful in the absence of predators. When one shows up, everything goes to hell.

Like I said before, the Empire is divided into autonomous regions by taking what Clovis did for Area 11's economy as a hint. Even if Suzaku cannot make a pacifist king, all he needs is to make the life of Elevens better through reform and cooperation once he obtains their ears.

Suzaku doesn't need to be a king maker. He just has to have connections to be able to push the changes that he wants.

And I don't really think that the Empire is an anarchic regime. It's power mainly lies in the one man. And just because a predator shows up, that doesn't mean that the ruler of said regime isn't strong enough to defeat the new threat easily. Quite a pessimistic view you have there if you ask me, as theorists are theorists after all. Action is what moves this world, not theories.

Theoretical history :P It's a truism, though, that those in power generally disapprove of things that will lessen their power, and allowing greater colonial independence will threaten those with interests in the region, economic or political. We haven't seen much of the ruling class of Britannia, but keeping in mind the general philosophy which drives the Empire, I can't imagine their ruling class being a bunch of teddy bears.

Independence ISN'T what Suzaku's trying to go for. What he wants is to change the system so the cycle of distrust and discrimination will stop. What he works for is an Area 11 that has Elevens that are able to live like humans again.

And yes, most likely, most of the people of the Britannian ruling class aren't teddy bears, but Zero and the people from Kyoto aren't teddy bears either.

The Earl B. Wexfordshire think is just a nod to the general order of business in aristocracies. Anything Suzaku does to shake the status quo will threaten those that benefit from it; those that are idealists may accept their loss of power or even pledge their assistance - several nobles did join up in the French Revolution, after all - but ultimately all it takes is a conspiracy of a few to assassinate him, and given the general tendency of aristocracies to engage in politics-by-knife (see the late Roman Republic for the best examples of this; it is the best image of the aristocratic republic gone bad, though you'd find the same thing going on in Venice or any other number of places) and the general ideology which drives Britannian political legitimacy and conquest (we kill off the weak people so we become stronger) and Suzaku getting bumped off by a couple of jealous nobles is a very likely thing. Plot armour may protect him, but remember that we're talking about the ethics of his position here. It'd be nice if he could sit down with the House of Lords or whatever and talk them into his way of thinking over a cup of tea, but it's not gonna happen if the writers decide not to cloak the guy in plot armour, so to attempt to justify supporting a state that murders innocents intentionally (as opposed to unintentionally in Lulu's case, and even then there were warnings pre-battle I think on the part of the Britannians) is a hypocritical and unethical position.

Umm, we aren't in a point were we can talk about Suzaku getting rubbed off yet. He hasn't climbed that high yet. As I already said, just because your path is fraught with dangers doesn't mean you just have to give up.

Defeatist attitudes really make me feel sour, so sorry.

But murder in the middle of the battlefield does not occur, for innocents do not exist in a battle zone. To think that innocents exist in a battlefield will cost a soldier their lives. I am not sugarcoating this truth for your sake.

My point was that it's the only possible way of putting his people into power, because we both agree that he's never becoming Emperor so the only way for him to effect change is to have influence with the people holding the highest offices. He's not gonna sway Big Daddy Britannia, I think we both agree, and he's won over Euphie and maybe Cornelia in the future. Now, as it stands, there are two possibilities:

1) The state, legally if not ideologically, runs on a strictly hereditary basis; that said, neither Corelia nor Euhpemia are the heirs apparent. We don't know much about Britannian inheritance law, but Cornelia is the second princess, so she's likely not the crown princess. Even if the crown ran under equal primogeniture, which traditionally in England it did not (though women could inherit in the absence of any male contenders) she'd have to somehow deal with the problem of the people ahead of her in the line of succession. Now, she can either talk them into giving up their claim (yeah right) or she can arrange an "accident". Those are the only two options in this case.

2) The second possibility is that Big Daddy Britannia himself names an heir, which I think is altogether more likely as from the way Lulu speaks it seems like it's a tradition for the heirs to infight and for the strongest to claim dominance. Now we all know what drives his thought - equality is evil, go evolution, yadda yadda. In this case Euphie or a converted-Corny haven't a chance in hell of getting named to the throne, unless they can manage to trick the old guy into naming them, which I doubt because he's a smart guy. He's Lulu's dad, after all. In this case the only way to get to power is to cut their way to the top and to play his game.

From now on, I WON'T reply to things that can happen in the plot as they look like summaries and spoilers and may make people feel like we're ruining their story for them. You may dream of what may happen, but that won't make it any more real until they DO happen.

Especially since not a lot of people reply to everything I say, doing the same for everyone is quite fair, ne?

This is a good point, but it seems to me that all Suzaku's and Lulu's thought is focussed not just on Japan but on Britannia as a whole. If gg's translation is accurate to the original in this sense, the first Suzaku-Zero dialogue confirms this; Zero talks in terms of "changing the world" and "Britannia is a rotten country you cannot use" and Suzaku says "I will make Britannia into a good country from inside out". I think both of their objectives are the Empire as a whole.

Yeah, my point exactly.

See above, I was referring to his possible options other than managing to talk them into it, which is rather unlikely given what we've seen so far. I guess he could pull a Nanoha and use his devilish tools to make them listen (nothing says love and friendship like a magical nuke to the face, and hey, he could even be the White Devil) but given the tone of the series i doubt it :P

Maybe. I'm watching the series to find out.

I see what you mean here; I didn't pay close enough attention to the screen I think. I'd estimate their losses at 25% or so upon review.

And that probably wasn't even Cornelia's entire army.

This would only work if people like Cornelia and Euphemia, assuming Cornelia is actually warming to Suzaku (which I think she is) are in the majority. Of the royals we've seen so far, we have two assholes, one who's actually quite like Lulu so who I classify as marginally evil/probably good at heart and one Lacus Clyne. We have the 2nd Prince Schneizel yet to show, so he's an unknown quantity. The general character of the royals, then, is an unknown. However, recall the reaction of the aristocrats in the Imperial court when chibi-Lulu went storming up to confront his father: they realized he had lost all position, that he had lost all chance of significance, and said words to that effect (i don't actually have the episode on hand so I can't pull up the specific dialogue but it was in that general direction). Now, if this were a "proper" family, the death of the mother would not mean so very much; however, the loss of his power means someone was there to usurp it. Now that Lulu no longer has the Ashford/Lamperouge household to be his backing, he can no longer participate in the cut-throat court. This, of course, is speculation, but I think it's damn solid speculation based on what we've seen so far :P

Well, the aristocrats probably only care about power as you said. NOT if one person is either a Number or anything. If Suzaku becomes a very influential and useful Number, won't the aristocrats warm up to him as well to gain political position?

Originally Posted by dude

The main reason people don't say much about Lelouch killing people is because he doesn't deny it. Suzaku, on the other hand, denounces injustice yet goes around killing people who probably have families and loved ones, though certainly less than Lelouch so far, but his attitude is certainly enough to piss a lot of other people off.

Huh? Doesn't Lelouch denounce the injustice he calls his father while killing a lot of people as well, some of whom should be his allies? Don't the people that Lulu kill have families and loved ones of their own?

Suzaku just kills his enemies. He also denounces the injustices committed by others but as of now, his hands are tied. Until he can get where he wants to be on, he has no choice but to kill his enemies.

Both of them denounce each other's injustices while killing people. It's just that Lulu also kills those who should be his allies to make his plans work like they were nothing more than mere pawns.

It would be more tolerable if he didn't actively aid in the oppression of the Numbers and, indeed, in many cases their actual murder. Remember that in the first great battle he fought in he actively aided the forces liquidating the Shinjuku ghetto. If his plan were workable it -might- be passable (I don't think so, others might argue otherwise); but since his plan is quite unfeasible given that he has managed to convert one person who might be in power some day and possibly one other person who really doesn't give a damn about killing civilians his actions become unjustifiable and worthy of derision.

I have not seen Suzaku commit acts of oppression throughout the entire series. Not a single act. And killing enemy combatants isn't murder. It's called a soldier's job.

Suzaku is working through a framework. He can't just jump through and ask suddenly for what he wants.

Originally Posted by Selic

My main grudge against Suzaku stems primarily from what he said to Lelouch after the Black Knights were unveiled. It's one thing to leave rescuing hostages and whatnot to the authorities, but it's another to let the incompetant authorities (At least in that situation) handle a crisis which it clearly wouldn't have handled well.

Suzaku's excuse? "They're shitty NOW, but it's fine if they get better, right?"

What about the people who DIE because of their incompetance/ways until they get better? Suzaku clearly dislikes Zero's needless bloodshed, but it's obvious he knows that people will die until he can get the Empire to reform. The sheer hypocrisy of his beliefs really gets at me.

No, people die in the current system because of the insurgency, rather than incompetence. If the insurgency disappeared, people won't die needlessly since the Empire only kills those that oppose their advance.

Just like what the woman said to a guerrila in the early eps: "It's your fault that this has happened to us.", before the guerrila said "Shut up!!!"

But it IS true that the shitty discrimination exists which makes the Numbers feel shitty as well. Suzaku is working to eliminate this discrimination by changing the government.

However, discrimination will not stop until Suzaku defeats the distrust that is sowed by the insurgency among the Britannian populace.

P.S. More replies coming

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

However, discrimination will not stop until Suzaku defeats the distrust that is sowed by the insurgency among the Britannian populace.

...I don't know what to say as a reply.

You claim that the Britannians would trust the Numbers if only the insurgence were removed? What, other than the fact that Britannians have stolen their land, dug up their sacred mountain as a mine, bombed their cities into rubble and taken all their rights away?

Why WOULD any Britannians trust the Numbers, when the Numbers have every reason to hate them? The Britannians know they are in the wrong, and that's why they don't believe in justice. To believe in justice would be condemning themselves. Instead, it is official policy that "might makes right", as Euphie mentioned.. "We spilled blood to conquer them, so we have earned the right to rule over them".
(Note that Euphie doesn't really believe this... This is just standard mantra for Britannians to justify invading everyone they want.)

[Selic]

Huh? Doesn't Lelouch denounce the injustice he calls his father while killing a lot of people as well, some of whom should be his allies? Don't the people that Lulu kill have families and loved ones of their own?

Suzaku just kills his enemies. He also denounces the injustices committed by others but as of now, his hands are tied. Until he can get where he wants to be on, he has no choice but to kill his enemies.

Both of them denounce each other's injustices while killing people. It's just that Lulu also kills those who should be his allies to make his plans work like they were nothing more than mere pawns.

I mean in the sense that they both kill and denounce, but Suzaku behaves as if his killing people isn't wrong, or at the very least, LESS wrong than Zero's.

There's no reason the JLF SHOULD be his allies. There's no formal agreement between them and whatnot. There's nothing that binds them together aside from the whole "Enemy of my enemy is my ally", which is a bit of an iffy thing in the first place especially when it's between two groups of insurgents.

Though Zero blowing up the ship may not have been the most effective way of doing it, since there's probably countless other scenarios with different outcomes and whatnot, it served to be a good distraction. First it takes out the enemy's aquatic Knightmares and also messes up the Knightmares on the ground, giving enough time for Zero and crew to sail across and deploy.

Anyway, I'm going back to lurking. I hate these kind of arguments since it's more or less "X does y because of z" that goes back and forth.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Santa Claus

Nope. It’s impossible for me to fly like Superman. But I’ll concede that Suzaku’s methods have the possibility of succeeding, however unlikely. So OK: it’s not impossible. It’s improbable. Extremely improbable, IMO.

Yes, unlikely. But that is the only way he knows that he can make a difference without getting other people involved if he commits rebellion. Unlike Lulu, everyone knows who Suzaku is. Suzaku risks a lot more, because not only does the hopes of better treatment of Honorary Britannians is a burden on him, the greater acceptance and trust of other Numbers apply for him as well.

Well yeah, that’s pretty much what I said/implied.

Which is why I agreed... is there a problem with agreeing?

And? He would never have been in a position to do anything, if he had gone with his original ‘plan,’ and Zero wasn’t around. That’s the problem I have with him. More on this later.

And? If the Geass wasn't around, Lelouch wouldn't have been able to be where he is right now in a matter of weeks. By the time, Lelouch reached where he is now without the Geas, he might've already been killed since he'd have no C.C. to save him anymore.

You're being too tough on Suzaku for his dependence intertwined fate with Zero, while you also seem to conveniently forget Lelouch's dependence on the Geas and C.C. to make his plans succeed as quickly as they have.

I’m wailing on his plan, not the man himself.

Sure doesn't sound like it.

First of all, the Lancelot would likely not be used at all. This is just fanciful imagining, of course, but let’s consider the facts:

1) Clovis was on track to annihilate Ougi’s group.
2) Cornelia was on track to annihilate all groups.
3) Clovis didn’t want to use the Lancelot until almost his entire assault force was wiped out. If he does, he’s showing the Emperor not only how incompetent he himself is, but also how resourceful and useful Schniezel is. If I didn’t know better, I’d have thought this was Schniezel’s plan to discredit both Clovis and Cornelia: after all, what better way to show how weak the two are than to have them saved by an Eleven?
4) Cornelia didn’t want to use the Lancelot initially, either.

The only possible argument I see here is the fact that Clovis was not half the general his sister was, and thus he’d run into trouble with the JLF. More to the point, I believe it’s most likely that without the Lancelot, Suzaku might never have achieved a single thing.

Yes. Isn't it obvious that Clovis doesn't have even half the brains of Cornelia in battle?

And also, without the Geas or C.C., Lulu might never have been able to achieve anything as well.

Trying to discredit the characters by using their plot devices is kind of... suck. If both of them didn't have any plot devices, this series would have ended in one episode.

I happen to think Lulu’s a bloody twit. However, the topic is: Do the Ends Justify the Means. I chose to focus my comparison on the Means both characters uses. I believe Lulu’s has a much higher chance of success than Suzaku’s.

It's not a matter of who has the higher chance to succeed that the topic asks. It's a matter of who is more righteous of these two gray characters.

(If you ask me, it's even more ridiculous to ask such a question, since right and wrong changes for every person since we all live in a gray world.)

Are you counting only the times C.C. shows up, or are you including the times he places a Geas on people?

Well, do we need to count them? What I wanted to imply is that blaming a character's development through their plot devices is a basically useless argument. Both use a lot of plot devices to get their plans saved that the two are in a friggin' deadlock as of now.

OK. Well, it takes time – a LOT of time – to fully assimilate a people. Let’s not forget: the Japanese have a different skin tone, different culture, different everything. And while the Numbers system looks good on paper, in practice it becomes a convenient excuse for Britannians to look down on conquered peoples. After all, they’re not even a race anymore: just a number.

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS!?! That is what Suzaku wants to friggin' change! He wants to defeat this discrimination by replacing it with trust and respect.

Just because you're different one day doesn't mean you can't change the next. That is what assimilation is for. And the kind of assimilation that Suzaku wants is one where all his fellow Elevens can be treated as equals and partners in the Empire that he is serving now.

A question: is Cornelia placing the Lancelot in her guard unit, or Suzaku? She can’t strip him of his mech, remember. If Schniezel decided to award the Lancelot to another pilot, one has to wonder whether Suzaku will keep his position for long.

Well, if my reading of Cornelia's personality is correct, she places Suzaku in her unit out of gratitude. Though Cornelia shows that she is a brutal military commander, when she was about to get nabbed at Narita, she showed that she also has pride and honor as an Imperial Princess. She has honor, for short.

And yes, his superior is dead. Killed by Lulu. Does it seem likely to you that, had he not been offed, he’d have ever recognized Suzaku? He’s obviously racist: he calls them beasts, for crying out loud. And racists aren’t easily swayed by pretty words and actions.

Umm... so talking about a dead guy would do what? Dead people can't change, that much I can say.

Britannia seems, first and foremost, to be a military dictatorship. It moves according to the will of a man who obviously believes in the tenets of Social Darwinism. A number designation is the signifier of a defeated nation – a country full of weaklings, in other words. Perhaps even genetically inferior, to the Purist. After all they had the sakuradite, but didn’t develop the Frames that won the war so easily.

But hey, if that man OBVIOUSLY believes in Social Darwinism, if Suzaku proves the worth of being a Number doesn't necessarily mean weakling, won't that said man also respect Suzaku. And to gain the Emperor's respect can make it look like a sign of new times, right? Besides, I've never even heard anything that says the Emperor is Purist. Well, even Cornelia had semi-Purist ideals before she was saved by Suzaku, right?

And I commend Suzaku for his efforts. But I can’t help but add that it must be lovely to have absolutely everything magically going your way.

Lol, same with Lulu. Very lovely, indeed.

The parallel I’m referring to is the fact that both have arguably the same beliefs and are in the same initial situation. Stilicho is half barbarian, and had to work his way up the military ladder in Rome. He makes good progress, but then again he’s still half Roman – not pure Barbarian. Plus, he has a desperate Emperor on his side. And he’s still killed, despite being the only thing standing between the Western Empire and a good sacking. And despite his incredible prowess in war, the foederati are still reviled.

Well, please stick that discussion again when Suzaku gets killed. Then, I will yield.

I’m not backtracking, since my whole stance is Suzaku’s plan is unworkable in the absence of Zero. As I’ve said before, without the bogeyman of Zero creeping under the Britannians’ beds, he’d never have been in a position to gain anyone’s trust. Unless he comes out and says that this was all part of his calculations, I’m not going to place much stock on his initial plan.

He's a soldier. If he proves himself in the many other wars that the Empire is in right now, then, even without a Zero, he would have climbed of his own free will. And who's to say that even without Zero, he wouldn't have gotten obtained the Lancelot just through Lloyd's search for a good pilot?

Maybe I’m not making myself clear. I couldn’t care less that Cornelia kills soldiers who can’t follow orders. I also don’t care about the collateral damage. All I’m saying is, Suzaku is trying to show Britannians that, as a HB, he can still follow orders as a member of the military. That’s a little strange: he is in effect showing that HBs can follow orders in the military, when all soldiers are expected to follow orders anyway. It’s his job, nationality notwithstanding. His plan seems to be to show that HBs can also do a job as well as any Britannian. OK…but let’s see... insubordination leads to death, so they better follow their orders to the letter, anyway.

Well, isn't following orders how people advance in real life as well (apart from killing your masters and stealing their wealth)? Don't tell me you didn't know that.

He can believe in it all he wants. His is undeniably the harder path, as he’s trying to change a rigid social structure, not collapse it. Doesn’t make it any more believable.

And having an eye that controls people is?

Understand that based on how Suzaku is built as an HB, that is the only thing he can do.

The comparison actually makes sense, but I won’t bother explaining since it’s a potentially incendiary topic. For a better comparison, how about the Native Americans and Colonials? Or any of the ones suggested by the poster, coefficient, up above.

Umm... you didn't even understand the distinct difference that I gave...

As I have posted somewhere before, there must be a condition to be able to make changes in the system. You must be able to get in it. The Indian-Colonial thing had no room for the Natives to get in. Hence, the reservations.

Britannia, however, has room where a person can enter the government to make changes. A very distinct difference.

Or, for slightly more peaceful comparisons: let's take the Suffrage and the Civil Rights Movements. how long did it take for equality to take root, in a democratic nation? In the US, officials are elected by the people: thus, they have a vested interest in promoting whatever is popular at the moment. This is not the case for the Empire. The Emperor could care less what commoners think and want. He probably doesn't care much about the nobility, either.

Didn't I say acceptance is slow to come? Or, do you just hate reading what I post?

First of all, Code Geass is hardly Shakespeare. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar: it’s painfully obvious what Suzaku wants, as well as how he plans to go about achieving it. He monologues on the subject practically every time he meets someone willing to listen. And let’s be honest: sure, Suzaku is a great HB. All HB should look up to him. Why, they can get where he is today, if they all get their hands on Frames that are generations ahead of anything the military and the resistances can field, and if they have connections with an influential Imperial Princess.

We aren't told if other HBs are able to join the local government just as easily as they can the army. As such, the path to better government doesn't just lie on having a 7th gen Knightmare Frame that gets a person involved with an Imperial Princess. There must be others who think just like Suzaku who work to make Area 11 better without resorting to belligerency. I highly doubt that Suzaku's the only one who thinks that Elevens can't work hand in hand with the now incumbent powers that rule their nation. So making such a provoking remark isn't really useful for this argument with the sarcasm.

Also, I won't comment on crackpot theories anymore as my arms are writhing from responding to probably a dozen people.

And before anyone says anything: even without the Geas ability, Lulu could have done damage to the Empire. He's a bloody prince, even if disinherited. If anything, that just makes him more desireable as a tool. With a court as cutthroat as the Empire's seems to be, I can only assume there are some families that might want to use an exiled prince as a figurehead once the current emperor dies. The only reason he can't/won't is that his sister likely would not have survived the attempt. However, this is all conjecture.

Yes, conjecture indeed. What use is a disinherited prince if there is already another person that will take the crown. Even before being disinherited, Lulu was like 17th in succession to the throne...

... that's very far.

Originally Posted by coefficient

National pride? More like personal dignity. Elevens who do not gain Britannian citizenship are forced to live in abject squalor amidst tottering ruins that should rightfully be condemned; Elevens who do gain Britannian citizenship are subject to constant discrimination, racism and humiliation. In their own country.

On the topic of progress: Yes, infrastructure and such are improved, but to whose benefit? Historically this was always to the benefit of the local transplanted oligarchy from the homeland and perhaps the local chieftain or emir or raja. Overall the lives of ordinary Japanese are -much- worse off under the Britannian regime than under the previous government, and they aren't seriously safer either (the Chinese federation is a world power, remember, and they're just across the Sea of Japan). I figure the people reaping the benefits of "progress" are the Britannian East India Company, Sakuradite Extraction Division or whoever as well as the 12 dudes of the local quisling committie that is apparently the intermediary between the servile Eleven population and the conquerors. Conquest very rarely works to the benefit of the conquered; the only example I can think of is maybe the Italians under Rome because they became the heartland of a vast empire, and eventually citizenship was extended to them (but not for many generations to come).

In summation: though the "economy" may be better, little of that prosperity reaches the ordinary Japanese, and likely would not due to the inherent racism of the administration, the Britannian outlook, etc. The only Elevens likely to benefit from the increased Sakuradite production or whatever are the wealthy merchant families who have become Britannian citizens. For the rest of the country, it's lose your dignity to work as a hot dog seller in the walled-off Britannian districts or live in a bunch of ruins. This is not progress.

To make yet another historical comparison, think China under the humiliating treaties with Europe. They forced open the ports of China and allowed free trade therein; this is arguably a good thing economically, but the only people benefiting were the transplanted European merchant families and Chinese merchant oligarchs, though I suppose it guaranteed the Chinese stoner community a cheap source of Opium. Within those European protectorates the natives were subject to constant racism (example: signs on restaurants saying "no dogs or chinese allowed"), etc. The analogy is not perfect but I think it fits this example.

I not only said economy, but also the development of the conquered peoples.

Suzaku is fighting for that to happen. But more distrust is sowed in the hearts of Britannians by the insurgents that do their best to aggravate a situation where instead of Elevens are being trusted, they are distrusted even more.

That is why Suzaku wants to crush the insurgents as quickly as he can. One side has to win for the fighting to stop, and of course he'll fight on his side.

The development will only occur if the conquered are trusted and respected for their achievements. Which, again, is where Suzaku's coming from.

[antheonoileo]

double sigh* The Numbers may be treated like dogs now, but UNLIKE a dog, a Number can prove that he is a Britannian's equal or better. Why? Because they are human, first and foremost. They HAVE the capacity to prove themselves as equals, UNLIKE dogs and machine tools.

If you still don't understand this, then you will never understand that people can change for the better.

…..

Firstly, I have to praise that you ‘re really hard-working, writing such long posts for just few hours. Ok let’s be on the content, i’ll try to make it short:

- What I try to tell you is that the reason why Numbers are treated like creatures is not because they are less capable. It is just because they are Numbers. See in the anime, a honor Britanian is lower than Britainian. Why ? Not because his ability is lower, but just because he was a Number.

- Do you know why the empress was “weak” ? Because she was not powerful, not because whether she can pilot the Lancelot or not (just kidding). You said “since he probably has the backing of the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th in line to the throne. Quite high in the ranks of royalty if you ask me”: No, he only get the backing for him to be used more, not for him to raise idea (if then, except Euphie, the other prince/princess will want him to be dead meat).

Even realizing his usefulness, and using him more, Cornelia won’t supporting his ideal. They are different thing.

- If you say he only needs “little improvement” in behavior toward 11s, yes, right, struggling all his life with a careful attitude may achieve it. But it is just micracle that he didn’t, and won’t kill ppl– directly and indirectly. If you say because they are his enemy, then ok, you understand the point of where he belongs to (so Suzaku, don’t say like you are good and innocent !!)

Umm, I only said the reality of this world. Everyone are tools for other people. Respect and trust is gained by people who prove themselves most useful. That is the TRUTH of this world (Real or Geass).

eeh, I sense hypocrisy in this entire paragraph. Isn't what your spouting just a prettied up version of what I said, while hiding the truth that you still use people to cooperate with you. And at the same breath, you will abandon those who are useless to you.

Yes, hypocrisy, indeed.

You misunderstand my post because you equate usefulness with trust, love, and respect. Unlike you, I don’t see everyone as my tool. Some, yes (and they might think of me like that as well) but I have my love to my family and my friends without any requirements that they need to be useful to me.

And I will not “abandon those who are useless” to me (in my example, they are not only those I hate, but they also attempt to do harm to me). Have you done voluntary work ? Have you give money to poor people ? Do you need them to be useful to you ?

- My argument is to show the differentiation between usefulness with others – love, trust, respect, to support my idea that proving you are useful won’t make ppl listen to you, or necessary change their hatre toward you. In other side, people (except you and the Britanian) won’t hate/abandon others just because they are useless to you.

- To the Nazis thing: ok, you see the Britanian different from the Nazis. By:
+ Britanian having no “racialism” concept. Wrong !!
+ Nazis having no “Darwin” concept. Wrong for the 2nd time.

I’m tired with this long long topic with everytime same same basis (that Britanian is not really bad empire) already, so if you want to focus the discussion more about it, plz open a new topic and we will discuss it

Area 11 has already been a colony for 7 years running. At this time, we already know that, at the very least, there has already been 7 more areas overrun by the Imperials. (Area 18 = Mideast?)

Fighting invaders is something that cannot be avoided. In fact, I encourage battling to the death so the only the victors will be left behind and all semblance of the old rule will have disappeared. Makes for easier assimilation.

But when a country has already been beaten, and when said invaders are trying to improve the economy of said conquered region, further resistance is only countering any more development which can help the conquered peoples.
/
The war already ended 7 years ago with a resounding Britannian victory. Is there even any more need to further distrust and discord when the fruits of progress can be obtained by everyone in exchange for the loss of silly national pride?

- Before the war ended, do you know what Suzaku think ? For peace, “My father HAD to die”

- Do you think Britanian solders only kill resisters ? They feel free to kill innocents. And for civilian, didn’t you see the life of 11s being bullied by the Britanian ones ? Do you think they deserved it because some of their fellows are resisters ? Like I said, you seems to willingly accept your fate to knee down (if it happens). I’m different, I dun wanna be treated like a sheep.

TO ME, PEACE IS IMPORTANT, BUT NOT AS IMPORTANT AS BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

If you still think that the Numbers’ lives is acceptable, plz open new topic. This may be “Britanian is not a bad empire, and the Numbers should behave better” one then ^_^

Edit to add this:

That is why Suzaku wants to crush the insurgents as quickly as he can. One side has to win for the fighting to stop, and of course he'll fight on his side.

From the next one: Well, do you think that Zero thinks that he is wrong for killing people. NO, of course he doesn't.

Both men think that they are killing for a better cause and that the blood on their hands are nothing more than a means for their eventual goal of changing the world as they see it.

Ok, I'm glad to hear this as I'm tired of arguing. Then you agree that he chose one side and fight for it, crushing the other. And you also agree that Suzaku also chose the "bloody way".

Good. Good. That's exactly what he really is in people's mind.

Suzaku, you are no different from your enemy. Then don't act all high and mighty, ok !!!!!!!!!!

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You claim that the Britannians would trust the Numbers if only the insurgence were removed? What, other than the fact that Britannians have stolen their land, dug up their sacred mountain as a mine, bombed their cities into rubble and taken all their rights away?

Well, it makes it easier for an incumbent power to trust the people below his authority if they don't have guns, right? Doesn't it make perfect sense?

Why WOULD any Britannians trust the Numbers, when the Numbers have every reason to hate them? The Britannians know they are in the wrong, and that's why they don't believe in justice. To believe in justice would be condemning themselves. Instead, it is official policy that "might makes right", as Euphie mentioned.. "We spilled blood to conquer them, so we have earned the right to rule over them".
(Note that Euphie doesn't really believe this... This is just standard mantra for Britannians to justify invading everyone they want.)

No. You misunderstand. Justice is different for each and every person. There are as many justices in this world as their are versions of what is good and evil.

To believe in their justice, they would condemn no one but the weak for their inability to fend off the Imperial hammer.

But most Britannians' sense of justice allows for people like Suzaku to show that Numbers can be respected and trusted. If Suzaku follows through, he could open a path for his fellow Numbers, never mind just the Elevens.

Originally Posted by selic

I mean in the sense that they both kill and denounce, but Suzaku behaves as if his killing people isn't wrong, or at the very least, LESS wrong than Zero's.

Well, do you think that Zero thinks that he is wrong for killing people. NO, of course he doesn't.

Both men think that they are killing for a better cause and that the blood on their hands are nothing more than a means for their eventual goal of changing the world as they see it.

There's no reason the JLF SHOULD be his allies. There's no formal agreement between them and whatnot. There's nothing that binds them together aside from the whole "Enemy of my enemy is my ally", which is a bit of an iffy thing in the first place especially when it's between two groups of insurgents.

Umm... so the enemy of my enemy is... my enemy?

Though Zero blowing up the ship may not have been the most effective way of doing it, since there's probably countless other scenarios with different outcomes and whatnot, it served to be a good distraction. First it takes out the enemy's aquatic Knightmares and also messes up the Knightmares on the ground, giving enough time for Zero and crew to sail across and deploy.

I'm not denying the fact that Zero's shock tactics are quite brilliant, but that doesn't really erase the fact that he just killed people who don't really expect him to kill them.

Anyway, I'm going back to lurking. I hate these kind of arguments since it's more or less "X does y because of z" that goes back and forth.

I apologize if that is what you have gotten from our debates, but the real world is as complex, if not more, as things like this.

Which is why there's a lot of people dying in this world right now.

Everyone thinks they're right, and that justice is on their side..

[Village Idiot]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Well, do you think that Zero thinks that he is wrong for killing people. NO, of course he doesn't.

Both men think that they are killing for a better cause and that the blood on their hands are nothing more than a means for their eventual goal of changing the world as they see it.

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Though Zero blowing up the ship may not have been the most effective way of doing it, since there's probably countless other scenarios with different outcomes and whatnot, it served to be a good distraction. First it takes out the enemy's aquatic Knightmares and also messes up the Knightmares on the ground, giving enough time for Zero and crew to sail across and deploy.

Lelouch believes that if one is willing to kill, should be willing to be killed as well.

But Lelouch knows that killing innocents whom does not want to kill is wrong, and in Ep13, we see him struggling with coming to terms with that fact.

In the end, he accepts the deaths of the innocent people, but won't stop fighting because then all their deaths would have been for nothing.

[atilim]

The 80%I said was something sad about to Darlton when he asked about the situation, they sad the situation of the army.
Also even if JFL were defeated is doesn't mater too the Black Nights or to Britannia why because to Britannia the order of the Black Knights are the most dangerous. The afthermate and at the end of eps 12 Cornellia crearly stated this was a loss because of what it did to her army. For the Order of the Black Knights the damage is minimum.

Also something about Suzaku, he was in the first eps a small groundtroup, could it be he killed at least some 11. If that would be the case he would be the greatest hypocrite there is.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by antheonoileo

Firstly, I have to praise that you ‘re really hard-working, writing such long posts for just few hours. Ok let’s be on the content, i’ll try to make it short:

Thanks... I'm really tired especially since my day-off ends today. So this is probably my last post for a long while, maybe even forever.

- What I try to tell you is that the reason why Numbers are treated like creatures is not because they are less capable. It is just because they are Numbers. See in the anime, a honor Britanian is lower than Britainian. Why ? Not because his ability is lower, but just because he was a Number.

But I've already said this before, that's what Suzaku is trying to change. To get Britannians to trust Numbers so discrimination will disappear and that they'll be accepted afterwards.

- Do you know why the empress was “weak” ? Because she was not powerful, not because whether she can pilot the Lancelot or not (just kidding). You said “since he probably has the backing of the 2nd, 3rd, and the 6th in line to the throne. Quite high in the ranks of royalty if you ask me”: No, he only get the backing for him to be used more, not for him to raise idea (if then, except Euphie, the other prince/princess will want him to be dead meat).

A person allows himself to be used in order to gain favor. That is a basic human maneuver in socio-political schemes.

Even realizing his usefulness, and using him more, Cornelia won’t supporting his ideal. They are different thing.

People change. And so, an honorable Cornelia can listen as well if Suzaku gets enough royal favor.

- If you say he only needs “little improvement” in behavior toward 11s, yes, right, struggling all his life with a careful attitude may achieve it. But it is just micracle that he didn’t, and won’t kill ppl– directly and indirectly. If you say because they are his enemy, then ok, you understand the point of where he belongs to (so Suzaku, don’t say like you are good and innocent !!)

Well, I also believe that Suzaku isn't as good and innocent as Lulu. Both are gray characters. As I have always believed ever since watching the show, both men are as guilty as the other. Their paths just diverge while conflicting against one another.

You misunderstand my post because you equate usefulness with trust, love, and respect. Unlike you, I don’t see everyone as my tool. Some, yes (and they might think of me like that as well) but I have my love to my family and my friends without any requirements that they need to be useful to me.

The sense of love and support that your family gives you, isn't that something that you obtain from them. To foster feelings of warmth and enjoyment in you, don't you use your friends to make it so. Even if it is not obvious, people use other people for whatever they can obtain, be it physical, mental, emotional, or even psychological. That's just the way it is.

And I will not “abandon those who are useless” to me (in my example, they are not only those I hate, but they also attempt to do harm to me).

Well, aren't the people who you hate and those who attempt to harm you useless to you? You don't want them near you or those who you hold dear, right?

Have you done voluntary work? Have you give money to poor people ? Do you need them to be useful to you ?

Yes, because when I helped them, it made a little bit of my guilt and hatred in this world disappear. People normally help other people in what seems like "voluntary" work to make them feel good inside. That is the truth.

- My argument is to show the differentiation between usefulness with others – love, trust, respect, to support my idea that proving you are useful won’t make ppl listen to you, or necessary change their hatre toward you. In other side, people (except you and the Britanian) won’t hate/abandon others just because they are useless to you.

As I've explained above, usefulness in every imaginable sense of the word is what decides if a person will be loved, trusted, respected, or hated. It's just how the world works. Cut the world down like a piece of pie with logic and you see that this world is actually a very, very sad place.

- To the Nazis thing: ok, you see the Britanian different from the Nazis. By:
+ Britanian having no “racialism” concept. Wrong !!

No, no, no. I never said that Britannian society doesn't have racism. What they don't have is an ideology that says "every other peoples who are not of Britannian ancestry should die". They have racism, but not to the extent that they send every conquered peoples to death camps.

+ Nazis having no “Darwin” concept. Wrong for the 2nd time.

Umm... I never said this... If you carefully read what I said, you'd see that I said:

The Nazis do NOT have the condition that allows conquered people to change the system from within like Britannia does.

I’m tired with this long long topic with everytime same same basis (that Britanian is not really bad empire) already, so if you want to focus the discussion more about it, plz open a new topic and we will discuss it

As much fun as that sounds...that's too tiring.

- Before the war ended, do you know what Suzaku think ? For peace, “My father HAD to die”

Well, peace cannot exist with an old order trying to climb from the grave of its defeat using rebellion as its tool, right?

- Do you think Britanian solders only kill resisters ? They feel free to kill innocents. And for civilian, didn’t you see the life of 11s being bullied by the Britanian ones ? Do you think they deserved it because some of their fellows are resisters ? Like I said, you seems to willingly accept your fate to knee down (if it happens). I’m different, I dun wanna be treated like a sheep.

Well, from a military and logical point of view, yes, everyone that has been killed by Britannian soldiers have been on declared battlefields that are filled with Anti-Britannian insurgents. So yes, they only kill resisters. No one is innocent in the battlefield. A harsh truth, but for soldiers to survive, this is what they should live by, as what Vietnam and Afghanistan has shown in the past.

TO ME, PEACE IS IMPORTANT, BUT NOT AS IMPORTANT AS BASIC HUMAN RIGHT.

Well, that's true. However, Suzaku wants to have both peace and basic human rights at the same time, which is a very ambitious and hard thing to do.

The thing is, it's not what you think is important, it's actually what the characters think (who we are watching) that's important to understand.

If you still think that the Numbers’ lives is acceptable, plz open new topic. This may be “Britanian is not a bad empire, and the Numbers should behave better” one then ^_^

Acceptable? I'm rooting for the guy who's trying to make a good change in the Empire... so why is is suddenly that you think that I like what's happening to the Numbers?

And even if Britannia is a bad empire now, even empires can change for the better. (which is the core message of Suzaku)

vs.

This empire is useless and will never change, so discard it and trash it. ( which is the core message of Lelouche)

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Village Idiot

Lelouch believes that if one is willing to kill, should be willing to be killed as well.

But Lelouch knows that killing innocents whom does not want to kill is wrong, and in Ep13, we see him struggling with coming to terms with that fact.

In the end, he accepts the deaths of the innocent people, but won't stop fighting because then all their deaths would have been for nothing.

Well, I basically approve of that idea. Those who kill should be ready to be killed. I also understand that he accepts the casualties that he causes, but does that make him any less of a killer than Suzaku?

Also, the second quote in your post wasn't from me. It was from a guy I quoted.

Originally Posted by atilim

The 80%I said was something sad about to Darlton when he asked about the situation, they sad the situation of the army.
Also even if JFL were defeated is doesn't mater too the Black Nights or to Britannia why because to Britannia the order of the Black Knights are the most dangerous. The afthermate and at the end of eps 12 Cornellia crearly stated this was a loss because of what it did to her army. For the Order of the Black Knights the damage is minimum.

It was a personal loss for her, because the next episode clearly rebutts that phrase by saying that they won a sound military victory. And the 80% was only on the vanguard division. The vanguard isn't Cornelia's entire army. It's just the front.

Also something about Suzaku, he was in the first eps a small groundtroup, could it be he killed at least some 11. If that would be the case he would be the greatest hypocrite there is.

No, because he was shot at the back after apprehending Lelouche. After which he was transferred to where Lloyd was. Alsom he said it himself before: "He won't shoot a civilian." At which point he got himself shot for insubordination.

[coefficient]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Negative? Like lack of freedom for the masses? Freedoms are granted only to those who have the knowledge and responsibility to use them. Which is why some democracies tend to become brainless mob rules in third world nations. If a monarchy remained enlightened (not liberal so much as progressive), people under their rule will prosper. The only negative I can truly see is that monarchies require strong leaders or they fall. But being enlightened doesn't mean you're weak.

I meant the office of monarchy. What is granted is inherited, and for every Marcus Aurelius you've got in your monarchy you get a Caligula or a Commodus. Modern government's power is divided and limited to guard against that; it limits the potential of great men to do great things, but it also minimizes the harm crazy people who stumble their way into power can do.

anyway i may or may not reply in the morning, it's late

edited for the sake of completeness:

From now on, I WON'T reply to things that can happen in the plot as they look like summaries and spoilers and may make people feel like we're ruining their story for them. You may dream of what may happen, but that won't make it any more real until they DO happen.

I didn't say that to speculate, that belongs in another thread. The crux of my argument (and the crux of most people's arguments I think) is that Suzaku's actions are only justifiable if the goal he has in mind - colonial reform in the Britannian empire - is attainable. My point is that it's not attainable without resorting to methods as bloody if not bloodier than Lulu's, and those were the reasons why. He cannot assume power himself, so he has to gain influence in the halls of power, and assuming that the Britannian aristocracy is warlike and jealous of their power (a reasonable assumption, I think you will agree) he will need to plant his own people in power. However, under a hereditary legal framework, this is impossible without either convincing the people ahead of him to step down or killing them, which puts him on the path of carnage again. As such, his actions are not justifiable.

tl;dr: Suzaku can't implement any change whatsoever without getting his hands dirty with the blood of Britannian nobility. While struggling in vain to work the system from inside is admirable to some extent, it is not when you are aiding directly in the oppression of an entire nation (i cite again the shinjuku incident, where the resistance fighters were fighting soldiers who were liquidating the ghetto by mass extermination). whether or not he has actually killed civilians himself is beside the point; the lancelot, by demonstration and by the ace pilot law of anime, is easily worth an army of sutherlands/burais, and he is turning that against the people of japan, because -that's what an occupation army does-.

[mangastuff]

I'm sorry but if you say suzaku is trying to be an useful Honored Britanian so that he can change their perspective, does he think the same as the Britanian ? Is he then also a fan of the theory of goodess ?

I mean, when the Britanians tell "Well, we change our mind. Numbers can be very loyal and useful. We need to treat those useful ones a little bit better" will he say "No, usefulness is not important. Please treat all Numbers better" ? Will it then contradict with his way of climbing up the system ?

I have to ask it because of what I read in the posts. In my opinion, he doesn't really think that much. He may has some orient, yet he doesn't consider clearly what to do. I don't think he is like what Nanaya told, already chose to crush the other side to bring peace. If then he will be no different from Zero.

[atilim]

Nanaya I can't believe you. Losing at least 80% of you're forces during a operation is bad now mather how you look at it. After the Order showed up the main enemy was not JLF but the Order. The losses of Cornellia's army were great especially comperd to the losses the Order suffert. Those people hoe sad it was a victory were only saying that because they were afraid of Cornellia.

What happend her was something that happend against Zaft when they attack Alaska in Gundam Seed. Even if the EA lost a lot of people the damage to Zafts army were greater, why because they lost most of there attacking forces, and wars can't been won with only defending.

[antheonoileo]

I don't think Suzaku has already thought as far as you (willing to chose the bloody way), but yes if he has "darkly grey" thoughts like yours and willing to use some tactics to gain power (not just simple recognization of usefulness) , I think there is still oppotunity for him to gain sth big. And then I will not hate him like I am now.

Ok so we have 2 anti-hero chars now - one think himself is half an evil and one think he is an angel. Both of them chose bloody means to gain good ends, one feel a bit regretful and one feel angry with the other.

Then does the end justify the means ? "Yes. If you disagree, see my big canon."

I QUIT

[seraphon]

nanaya...... why cant you accept a simple truth proven by history and sciencefiction usual convention. A country ruled by a dictator and a small circle(here the nobles), totally racists, cruel, selfish, stupid, and whatever other horrible trait cannot be changed only by one of the subhumans (in the emperor and the majority of the nobles mind) showing "good manners" or by giving morale lessons like "we can be all happy together if we work together" (my god.... Did I really write that??). It s just impossible and its not weak minded...... We are not talking about changing the point of view of a misbehaved kid or even a criminal.

As for the exemples its very simple: in Europe where there was a lot of monarchies with influent noble courts who didnt give a damn about the population(and here we are talking about their own population, not some colonial population), the only way to change things were for the french to kill their king in the revolution and after that all the other countries tried that too (Well in some countries like england they didnt kill the king but weakened greatly his power against his will I may guess).
Second, there must be a reason why all the colonies in history never lasted long. All got freed after a certain time because tere is always trouble in a colony even when there is no racist emotion.
Of course you migth say if there was a lot of suzakus in the colony, things migth have be different.......I will only say maybe and try to show you the ineptie of suzaku s goal by other examples.

Now some really simple questions:
-In World War II do you think there ougth to be a suzaku (or more god help us) in France that should have tried to show the example by working in the nazies army and destroying all the rebellions group in France? You can say that the nazies are different than the britanians, and I would only say the difference is that the nazi wanted to exterminate more people. But they treated france correctly (more correctly than the britannians are treating the japanese even) and believed in the theory of the stong against the weak like a certain CG king.

Another example is Star wars (its not realist but CG isnt a real life situation anyways). Would you really applause(praise, admire, say he s rigth or whatever) a suzaku like person who isnt human and join the imperial army, then get to use a totally new space craft, than kick the ass of han solo and capture skywalker than crush the rebellion and act like the best possible soldiers. Do you think that the emperor and all the other powerful people of the empire(generals and governors) would look up on this suzaku like alien and suddenlyy try to change the system,even thougth the emperor and all the powerful people are known to be cruel, selfish crazy for some, and totally hate/despise aliens......... I dont think so............


nanaya if you can just truthfully answer to all these well I ll just find other examples to show that suzaku s goal are just plain impossible in CG's universe.

[bond4154]

I am in no mood to read all that above. I honestly am not in such a mood, nor do I have the time. So I skimmed through the above, and I'll spew a few random stuff as well.

With my position in a more neutral situation (I'm quite neutral about Suzaku; I neither like nor hate him), I'd like to point out that the topic under discussion here is not whether or not the Britannian Empire is evil, but whether or not Suzaku is a horrible character. I believe neither for the moment. Indeed, the Britannian Empire at the moment is corrupt, its Emperor moreorless a jackass. On the other hand, the Britannians don't complain. As far as I'm concerned, most Britannians are treated rather well by the government, and it is the Numbers that get the brunt of the shitty treatment. Racism happens everywhere, some more than others. Other than the Emperor, whom we honestly haven't seen much of, most of the royal family members and high-ranking officers we've seen so far have seemed like human beings as well instead of tyrants (with the exception of Clovis, but he died in the beginning of the third episode, so he doesn't count, but considering that many attended the Purists' parade of Suzaku, it seemed that he was moreorless welcomed by the Britannians). We've seen Cornelia slaughter people, but, on the other hand, she's quite kind to Euphemia, and she has shown great responsibility to people under her command instead of wasting their lives needlessly like pawns. There is no government that is evil; the government is only the lens that reflects the light of the people who run it. At the moment, though, I honestly don't think that the Britannians don't give a damn about their population. Even Britannian soldiers have been seen with the family members of the victims at Narita. We just sympathize a lot with the Elevens.

As for Suzaku himself...

Oh, yes. Let me make this clear really quick. Suzaku is in absolutely no way a Kira. The only similarities they share are that they have really kickass mechs, and that they are Japanese. Similarities end there. Kira was not nearly as naive as Suzaku was. Kira was a civilian who never received military training, but he walked into the cockpit of Strike fully aware that he would have to kill (Kira did not pursue a policy of missing cockpits until he received Freedom and could afford to do non-lethal combat). Suzaku was a military-trained soldier who still wanted to prevent as much loss of life. Kira joined the military only because the situation forced him to protect his friends. Suzaku joined because he wanted to change Britannia (I'm skeptical of that, as we haven't seen Suzaku do much, nor seen much backing for such a claim). Kira never criticized the "justice" of killing Coordinators or Naturals, and accepted the fact that such hate was simply going to last between the Earth Alliance and PLANT. Suzaku could not accept the killings made by the Order of the Black Knights because they did not operate under legit authority. The two could not possibly be even more different. So, as a declaration, I shall now bonk anyone on the head with a mallet if they call Suzaku a Kira.

And that is all. ^_^