Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I'll see the ep without subs in a few hours only, so I can't form a detailed opinion. I don't dispute that NUNS clearly seems to be doing bad stuff, but you seem almost fixated upon declaring them worse than Windermere. I'll be back with more detailed opinions on that when I get to see the episode.

Windermere are just angry underpowered victims lashing out while NUG guy is taking advantage of that lashing out to run experiments that could ruin planets. So yeah, they are the lesser evil. You can just patch up things with Windermere because they aren't portrayed as one-dimensional scheming dudes who are pulling strings behind everybody's back.

Windermere are being really ungodly stupid, though. I still put my money on Heinz will fix this with Freyja and Walkure.

[magnuskn]

For Windermere to have any justification about how they went about things, two events must have happened:

1.) The lightning-hole on their planet must be slowly destroying the planet itself.
2.) Appeals for help were ignored by NUNS.

That would result in them having nowhere else to go but to war. Nonetheless, it still wouldn't justify the bioweapon attacks on civilian populaces throughout the sector, i.e. deliberately inducing VAR syndrome.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Don't be absurd. If they were able to have a civilization with medieval technology, their demography was fine no matter their life expectancy. And the arrival of modern medicine, transportation, agriculture and so on should have resulted in a demographic explosion, unless countered by something a lot more serious than sending a few pilots off world once in a while. (Something like the availability of contraception and the expectation your kids won't fall to famine or plague, but if so, that was Wind's choice.)

And if they actually had demographic problems due to low adoption of modern technologies, I'd say it's because like a lot of banana republics (apple kingdom, in this case?), they spent too much on toys for the nobility, and too little on stuff that actually matters.

Actually, given that their unique physiology apparently places a hard(ish) limit on their individual lifespan, the introduction of modern technologies might not do much if anything to extend that without a focused effort (which apparently wasn't made, as far as we have seen.) I could see the introduction of earth culture being a problem, though, since it probably results in more young people like Freyja who are uninterested in the traditional "married at 10, two kids by 12" way of life. That might be one reason the Knights put restrictions on contact with the outside world after they broke with NUNs.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

1.) The lightning-hole on their planet must be slowly destroying the planet itself.

It's possible with all the ominous foreshadowing (like Roid muttering that soon time wouldn't matter with a sad face or Freyja being really freaked out about how the hole feels). I hope not. It's a nice place, so is Ragna. I don't want to see those worlds damaged any further.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

2.) Appeals for help were ignored by NUNS.

NUNS is the military branch though. Anyway, NUG cut ties with Windermere and established an embargo after the independence war. So doesn't look like they were willing to talk and negotiate with them at all. I'll remind you that Roid wants to sit and negotiate on equal terms which strongly implies that this was impossible.

However, I want to bring up three things after this episode and the Windermere manga chapter:

1. King Gramia puts his people's well-being and is willing to eat up his pride to avoid a conflict even if the treatment makes Ernest upset. Does that sound like a man who would use forbidden weapons on his planet and population (which are mysteriously mising. Where are these so called dimensional weapons that they allegedly possesses?)?
2. NUN Central Office Representative as contrast is portrayed as a moustache-twirling bastard who just exploded the ruins, NUNS soldiers, civilians, potentially endangered a planetary ecosystem using the conflict as an excuse before folding out of there.
3. Roid was going to visit the Protoculture ruins in the latest chapter and then drop by the castle after he's done. That implies there were ruins in Windermere which we don't see in the show (and can't be the ship which was within the castle it seems). Why are those ruins missing?

I'm not bothering to argue about morals or ethics here. I'm presenting a few facts and trying to guess the direction of the plot with all the hints we've been given.

[DevilHighDxD]

I haven't seen anything that make me wanna sympathize toward the Windermere. Vers at least has has princess Asseylum and what does Windermere has? Maybe in future but currently they are bunch of dicks slaving people and calling it "liberating them".

[Thess]

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

I haven't seen anything that make me wanna sympathize toward the Windermere. Vers at least has has princess Asseylum and what does Windermere has?

The Main Heroine, Freyja, 1000000000000x times better main heroine than Assesylum could ever hope to be?

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Thess

Nobody has defended their methods, you know.

I hate to break it to you, Thess, but some people here did do just that. Several times. And that still kinda scares me.

[Tenzen12]

Not really, these "radical" defenders (like me) just said it was necessary methods to stand chance against NUN. Not that it wasn't nasty.

In first place there is no nice method to wage war.

[DevilHighDxD]

Originally Posted by Thess

The Main Heroine, Freyja, 1000000000000x times better main heroine than Assesylum could ever hope to be?

Whom they deemed traitor immediately and tried to kill everytime? A girl that only wanted to sing and be the bridge for her people yet that warrant her to be killed?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I hate to break it to you, Thess, but some people here did do just that. Several times. And that still kinda scares me.

Stating that their methods are preferable over a big battle and bloodshed isn't defending them. It's just different standards. You can easily understand why, from a pragmatic view point, an outgunned planet of short-lived people use the quickest and easiest method readily available to them to gain control of otherwise impossible situation that would drag pass their prime.

Just like nobody has denied people of all sides will die. I thought Gramia will die and he's dead, isn't he?

(I wasn't even favoriting them, I've said time and time again that my favorite team is Walkure, followed by Delta. I just don't see the show making the Aerial Knights evil or final villains when Epsilon and local NUN have far more shadier representation).

Nonetheless, the utter denial that the NUN and Earthlings cannot do wrong when they have been portrayed as antagonists or incompetent before is just plain ridiculous and speaks of self-inserting, over empathizing and projecting some fake sense of moral superiority on faceless people we didn't even met until the last episode introduced a cartoonish jerk who is not so subtly a bad guy. As I even brought up before the previous entry to Delta (not Frontier, the game) had one of the higher officers of the NUN central office as the final villain. It's not something that is super rare.

All I know there is an official effort to present Windermere as people: as misguided and wrong they could be, they have a manga and space in the show to be fleshed out. While what do NUN got? Some dude who might as well have "Bad Guy" tattooed on his forehead.

Overlapping NUN and Chaos is a mistake. Chaos is your protagonists, NUN from this Cluster aren't. And Ernest has been vocal against them in the manga. It's really not that complex, when the show is unfortunately stereotyping very hard. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the Epsilon guy isn't a boss too. I hope he isn't.

Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD

Whom they deemed traitor immediately and tried to kill everytime? A girl that only wanted to sing and be the bridge for her people yet that warrant her to be killed?

Yes, so? She's going to be a bridge of understanding with Heinz eventually. She states and declares this and Freyja is working toward this goal. Out of curiosity, which other Macross did you watch?

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by Thess

Nonetheless, the utter denial that the NUN and Earthlings cannot do wrong when they have been portrayed as antagonists or incompetent before is just plain ridiculous

Yeah, like I said before, NUG was never really the best of us, was it? Even going as far back as 7? Basara was never really a military man, was he? Always an outsider... I think Kawamori is not even trying to hide his preference for the "underdog" versus the "military superpower". Take from that what we will...

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

I hate to break it to you, Thess, but some people here did do just that. Several times. And that still kinda scares me.

Nobody did, you guys are just taking everything so weirdly seriously.

Also, while we're there...

Other people claimed it would be perfecly OK to 1) nuke Windermere and destroy their entire civilization (including all the civilians and others who have nothing to do with the whole Var thing), and 2) to blow up the Protoculture ruins at Ragna, doing who knows what to the planet and oh, all its residents (who are currently displaced and may have lost their home planet forever*)...

...and all along they kept claiming to have the moral and intellectual high ground. If we're to accuse people of having scary opinions I think this definitely deserves a mention.


*of course they'll eventually return because this is not that kind of a story, but just consider. Try to imagine it happening in the real world, if that helps.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Yeah, like I said before, NUG was never really the best of us, was it? Even going as far back as 7? Basara was never really a military man, was he? Always an outsider... I think Kawamori is not even trying to hide his preference for the "underdog" versus the "military superpower". Take from that what we will...

Pretty much. I think that Kawamori might have a beef with Earth government in particular or favors independent dissent. Compare Global to Misa's dad in Macross (the dissented smaller faction was on the right)? Macross 7 with higher ups of the NUG in 7. Leon and Galaxy (rogue NUN but NUN after all) in Frontier (heck, NUNs arriving and trying to blowing up the Vajra Queen and Alto after their understanding in the movies) and the anniversary game where it's the icing of the cake.

He seems to favor smaller independent space-oriented factions and mercenaries (SMS and Chaos), IMO. Even Isamu is portrayed as a rebel in his job.

It's a little tiring that there's an evil NUN guy in almost every entry now, though. However this slowly becoming a staple.

[magnuskn]

Sorry, but the sudden backtracking some people do on "Nobody defended Windermere" is ridiculous and, again, playing with semantics. Yes, some of you guys defended their actions, called the killed civilians "fodder" and outright declared that NUNS was at fault when the evidence was extremely flimsy.

And I continue to say that, while the justification of Windermere might be there to go to war, they are still war criminals for their release of a bioweapon on civilian populaces. Yes, it is a bioweapon which by now they have learned to control better, but that is cold comfort to the dead and their relatives.

The very real possibility that there might be bigger villains than Windermere out there does not absolve them of their premeditated crimes. Not. At. All. If you keep defending them past that point, you are defending Windermere.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Sorry, but the sudden backtracking some people do on "Nobody defended Windermere" is ridiculous and, again, playing with semantics. Yes, some of you guys defended their actions, called the killed civilians "fodder"

As characters, the civilians (same as nameless mooks of all sides), unless named and given characterization, are fodder. You just need to detach yourself from fiction and stop taking it so seriously. I didn't see you arms up when someone said they should nuke Windermere and exact genocide on that civilian population, so it comes across as hypocritical moral superiority.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

and outright declared that NUNS was at fault when the evidence was extremely flimsy.

You call it flimsy evidence. I call it "obvious foreshadowing and hints" that take two seconds to unravel if some people were not irrational about Windermere in general, trying to catch that while their actions are wrong, they might be right about the NUN. That was what most of us were stating, I think. Roid might be with the NUNS if Kawamori is going to push the stereotypical villains which I had hoped he would avoid but it's becoming more and more likely.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The very real possibility that there might be bigger villains than Windermere out there does not absolve them of their premeditated crimes. Not. At. All. If you keep defending them past that point, you are defending Windermere.

Pointing out a potential logical conclusion that they would team up against a bigger bad guy, after some losses of each side, isn't "defending anyone." It's simply pointing out a stereotypical outcome I expect the show to deliver. You seem way too emotionally invested in this while I view it as entertainment. I'm trying to do guesswork while you're trying to pass on moral judgment which I don't care about frankly speaking.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

As characters, the civilians (same as nameless mooks of all sides), unless named and given characterization, are fodder. You just need to detach yourself from fiction and stop taking it so seriously. I didn't see you arms up when someone said they should nuke Windermere and exact genocide on that civilian population, so it comes across as hypocritical moral superiority.

You can't expect me to make a response to everybody. I don't support nuking Windermere at all, that would be just taking it out on an innocent civilian population for the errors of their arrogant nobility.

Originally Posted by Thess

You call it flimsly evidence. I call it "obvious foreshadowing and hints" that take two seconds to unravel.

I'm quite familiar with foreshadowing and hints. Macross normally does not go with the most obvious route, so I am not taking anime cliches for granted, like you are. If we'd go by that, Ranka would have easily won the triangle in Frontier due to her loli moe bonus.

Originally Posted by Thess

Pointing out a potential logical conclusion that they would team up against a bigger bad guy, after some losses of each side, isn't "defending anyone." It's simply pointing out a stereotypical outcome I expect the show to deliver. You seem way too emotionally invested in this while I view it as entertainment. I'm trying to do guesswork while you're trying to pass on moral judgment which I don't care about frankly speaking.

I am discussing the show how I would discuss real world events, with real world morals, true. I don't see the point of discussing the show with an attitude of "Bah, it is only fiction" because it devalues the show and the character for me.

And, as I said above, I don't expect a Macross show to follow stereotypes.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The very real possibility that there might be bigger villains than Windermere out there does not absolve them of their premeditated crimes. Not. At. All. If you keep defending them past that point, you are defending Windermere.

You really don't read what people write, do you.

(If Gramia was alive this is the point where I'd make a GRAMIA DID NOTHING WRONG, GLORY TO WINDERMERE MASTER RACE sig, but alas now I'll have to wait to see if Roid delivers on that front enough to be used for this purpose.)

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by kuromitsu

You really don't read what people write, do you.

(If Gramia was alive this is the point where I'd make a GRAMIA DID NOTHING WRONG, GLORY TO WINDERMERE MASTER RACE sig, but alas now I'll have to wait to see if Roid delivers on that front enough to be used for this purpose.)

One sentence says one thing, the next another thing. Bravo. You might be a Fox News member on the scale of hipocrisy.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

You can't expect me to make a response to everybody. I don't support nuking Windermere at all, that would be just taking it out on an innocent civilian population for the errors of their arrogant nobility.

Just pointing out. I don't really care about that either way.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I'm quite familiar with foreshadowing and hints. Macross normally does not go with the most obvious route, so I am not taking anime cliches for granted, like you are. If we'd go by that, Ranka would have easily won the triangle in Frontier due to her loli moe bonus.

Tsk. Don't be ridiculous. Alto met Sheryl first, thus she was the fated girl since the beginning (There's a Troupe Called First Girl Wins for a reason). Plus tsundere-clash = true love in any anime stereotype. Girl who pines after the dashing male lead only gets him in shoujo.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I am discussing the show how I would discuss real world events, with real world morals, true. I don't see the point of discussing the show with an attitude of "Bah, it is only fiction" because it devalues the show and the character for me.

And, as I said above, I don't expect a Macross show to follow stereotypes.

It's a show about problems getting magically solved through song (and when that doesn't happen, Kawamori regrets it: see his statement of DYRL solution). How can you try to apply some real world logic? Unless you drop Rolling Stones in middle of a battlefield and make everyone listen to their song, it's plainly ridiculous.

You don't expect a Macross show to follow stereotypes when they introduced a stereotypical evil military commander and a stereotypical evil middle eastern guy and maybe to complete the trifecta of evil is the stereotypical white haired with creepy glasses pleasant nice guy who really really loves science? Delta has been swimming in stereotypes. Look at Messer, he turned out as stereotypical senpai/mentor who dies so the protagonist would level up (and he was my favorite male character).

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

One sentence says one thing, the next another thing. Bravo. You might be a Fox News member on the scale of hipocrisy.

Oh man... You might want to look up sarcasm in the dictionary.