(L) Log Horizon (novel)

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by Naole

Alright; here we goYou consistently make Erroneous Assumptions and then proceed to do mental gymnastics to support arguments made through false Assumptions

Not sure why, but you decided to link two separate statements together as if they were part of the same argument. The first one, where I attempted to construct a polysyllogism from cherry-picking Re-Gun quotes, was to demonstrate that one can interpret the history of this world to support any argument. The other was to point out an informal fallacy, and I suppose was the springboard for this discussion.

Originally Posted by Naole

One of you Absurd Assumptions is that people Develop/Discover Advanced technology Critical to their Survival and the conveniently forget all about it.

It's not as absurd as you think, because it's happened before in real history. I tried to point that out with the Alexandria Library, but if you need some more examples, there's the Antikythera Mechanism, the steam engine, and the Baghdad battery.

Why would the landers forget about a useful technology? Well, adventurers are practically immortal, powerful beings with high mobility, very low maintenance costs, and most importantly, are willing to cull the demi-human population in large numbers. Why bother improving one application of ancient technology when the alternative is much better?

Originally Posted by Naole

You say this while ignoring the fact that it is clearly stated that the Kunie clan are the operators and maintainers on the system; which invariably means they have working knowledge of the Magical Energy Grid System.

The average technician for a municipal utility knows how parts are connected on the power grid, but I doubt that (s)he knows how to repair faulty power equipment.

Originally Posted by Naole

Which leads me to inquire what Eng you studied?

I ignored this the first time because it's irrelevant to the discussion, but I studied software engineering at the University of Waterloo, with an interest in world history as well as philosophy.

EDIT: Lazgrane, that quote lends credence to either side of the discussion.

[Naole]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Rendius' English is fine. Furthermore, you're capitalizing some words that don't need capitalization.

Eng in this regard isn't about english it;'s engineering (It's the sort of thing Eng Graduates understand)

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

I smell nikolas tesla

It would be interesting if the adventurers figure out how to build pylons to extend the magical armours' reach. One silly application would be instant teleportation to practically anywhere. That'd be scary if used for nefarious purposes, though.

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Naole

Eng in this regard isn't about english it;'s engineering (It's the sort of thing Eng Graduates understand)

Oops, sorry~~!! I was wondering why you were questioning Rendius' English. I looked up 'Eng' and came up with either English or a medical term, so I inferred that you were talking about English.


In other news, volume 6's raid battle is really enjoyable. I like how all these different people are helping out at different intervals. It's kind of like a marathon.

Spoiler:

And Tatara giving Akatsuki a replacement blade is pretty satisfying to watch.

[Rendius]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

In other news, volume 6's raid battle is really enjoyable. I like how all these different people are helping out at different intervals. It's kind of like a marathon.

I'm waiting for the entire volume to be translated before I dive in. Can't wait to read it!

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Rendius

I ignored this the first time because it's irrelevant to the discussion, but I studied software engineering at the University of Waterloo, with an interest in world history as well as philosophy.

Just as I thought you don't reason like someone versed in any of the core Engineering Disciplines. I take it your a software developer while I'm Legally Certified to be Plant/Production engineering. In RSA we do the best Deep Level Subsurface Engineering in the world and that's part of the background from which I've operated and your best exposure to this kind of thing would be in the Control & Instrumentation Software for the Machinery or do you make nice Apps for for phones & tablets.

If you go back and run through the discussion you'll see that see that I answered a Question as to who built the system and you made the inferences and ran with them.

Your telling a Mechanical Engineer that you can run a plant for Hundreds of years without knowing how it works. On some level you must recognize that this is erroneous; this sort of thing doesn't happen. Your level of understanding of Integrated Engineering Systems is Suspect; municipal technician always have a supervising Engineer; the consequences would be to great otherwise

(It happens all the time in South Africa; where the shortage of Competent Engineers at Municipal Installations results in Chaos; Protests & deaths)

MechEng was just my first Degree so I'm well well aware of the Critical importance of Control & Instrumentation Software but Software developers are not even almost cognizant of real world Engineering circumstances.

Let me get this clear by

Originally Posted by Rendius

Why would the landers forget about a useful technology? Well, adventurers are practically immortal, powerful beings with high mobility, very low maintenance costs, and most importantly, are willing to cull the demi-human population in large numbers. Why bother improving one application of ancient technology when the alternative is much better?

You're suggesting a country can relax and outsource its national defence to Mercenaries they know almost nothing about? Again Absurd!

When it comes to the Antikythera Mechanism, the steam engine, and the Baghdad battery; I will concede that something is going on there!

The machining requirements of the Antikythera Mechanism have me Dumbstruck; along with the Ancient sites in Peru. When I examine this situation the simplest explanation is that this loss of knowhow is deliberate! I don't want to get into ancient astronaut territory but the Circumstances are not comparable; the Landers have a working System they constantly monitor and Maintain.

[Wild Goose]

Y'all carry on; I studied law with practical hands on work in carpentry, basic electrics, and installation of electrical appliances, fixtures and fittings.

But I'll point out that far too many assumptions are being thrown around. Reminds me of a Magnum PI ep where Magnum gets TC to try and service the Ferrari's engine, reasoning that since TC maintains his MD-500, he can service the Ferrari.

Magnum learns the hard way that just because TC's worked on turboshaft engines, it doesn't mean he can work a Ferrari's engine.

As for Souji, I class him in a similar league to Justy Ueki Tylor. Dunno whether he's clueless, a magnificent bastard or just damn lucky. (Hell, even the author doesn't know!)

Having said that, if you keep running things for years... Might be possible to do without understanding the underlying physics, in which case you end up like the Adeptus Mechanicus. Praise be to the Omnimessiah, placate the machine spirits, etc etc.

[Naole]

Bloody Hell I'm being made to watch Sandra Bullock (This is a pain in the Ass)

I tried to Explain that I only watch Anime, SciFi movies and Agents of shield now; not to mention that today Is Log Horizon Day! Somehow she doesn't get it; I give up

[Kamui04]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

But I'll point out that far too many assumptions are being thrown around. Reminds me of a Magnum PI ep where Magnum gets TC to try and service the Ferrari's engine, reasoning that since TC maintains his MD-500, he can service the Ferrari.

Magnum learns the hard way that just because TC's worked on turboshaft engines, it doesn't mean he can work a Ferrari's engine.

And to expand on that, even if you're a good mechanic and can keep an old car/helicopter running, that doesn't by default make you capable of completely building a helicopter or a Ferrari from scratch which is a further stretch! Yes someone could reverse engineer them but that would take time and most likely not reach the same level as the original and the more complex the harder it is.

Also saying the Landers 'built' something ergo they must have intricate knowledge of it is making big assumptions from a few lines from the LN. Just because a contractors team can build you a house doesn't mean they have knowledge to make the materials or tools they use or how they were processes or even where they came from. Did the landers made the barriers from scratch or did they slap it together from an Alv's IKEA kit?

[Kyu Renjo]

Ugh... again... in the verge of tears in the sheer awesomeness of the Murderer's raid...

Akatsuki =')

[mike211]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

Oops, sorry~~!! I was wondering why you were questioning Rendius' English. I looked up 'Eng' and came up with either English or a medical term, so I inferred that you were talking about English.


In other news, volume 6's raid battle is really enjoyable. I like how all these different people are helping out at different intervals. It's kind of like a marathon.

Spoiler:

And Tatara giving Akatsuki a replacement blade is pretty satisfying to watch.

Ohh, I was kinda hoping that Akatsuki would pick up a Phantasmal-class sword from completing the Murderer Raid.

[Lazgrane]

And I thought I answered ya dumbasses' freaking question

Ain't it clear that the kunie clan did build the magic circuit?

Ain't it clear that the kunie is in charge of maintain them?

Then ain't it clear that those magic are the alv's legacy?

Then ain't it clear that the kunie have at least some damn knowledge about them?

Also, the idea of throwing away your gun because "ye, that guy with machine gun is protecting us, I'm sure he ain't gonna shoot us" is ridiculous.

Sound like US gun control to me. The difference is that ppl here throw away their guns willingly and volunteered

And I thought we already discussed about this before

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

And I thought I answered ya dumbasses' freaking question

Ain't it clear that the kunie clan did build the magic circuit?

Ain't it clear that the kunie is in charge of maintain them?

Then ain't it clear that those magic are the alv's legacy?

Then ain't it clear that the kunie have at least some damn knowledge about them?

Also, the idea of throwing away your gun because "ye, that guy with machine gun is protecting us, I'm sure he ain't gonna shoot us" is ridiculous.

Sound like US gun control to me. The difference is that ppl here throw away their guns willingly and volunteered

And I thought we already discussed about this before

The maintenance and operation of something is different from building it, though. I'm not particularly interested in rereading the LN to find where it says that the Kunie built it (and your previously quoted section only can allow a reader to assume or infer that they did).

Also, even if they have the knowledge about how it works doesn't mean they know how to bring it back in less than 10 years, which was what the original discussion was about. Or, perhaps, the 10 years is the fruit of their research. After all, in terms of "in a game," the magic circles weren't designed to be tampered with/shut down, since I assume that it was an option available to Adventurers only after the Apocalypse, and was unthinkable for the People of the Land.

[Lazgrane]

Duh. The option to shutdown was up to the kunie clan, mang.

"I am terribly sorry Lady Raynesia. The movements of the mobile suits will stop if we cut off the magic supply. But the defensive magic barrier in the city will also be lost. To reactivate it, it would take 10 years. That is all I have to say."

Just in case you need quota

[DQueenie13]

Originally Posted by mike211

Ohh, I was kinda hoping that Akatsuki would pick up a Phantasmal-class sword from completing the Murderer Raid.

After reading the ending, I'm not sure if they actually killed him or not. The blade shatters, but it's not stated that it dropped any loot.

[mike211]

Originally Posted by DQueenie13

After reading the ending, I'm not sure if they actually killed him or not. The blade shatters, but it's not stated that it dropped any loot.

Yeah I know, but since this is a Raid Boss, I am pretty sure there would be a rare drop or 2.

[Voceane]

The adventurer can easily communicate with the link. Thus why the bard have to be in the 20m radius to sing his/her song?

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

Ain't it clear that the kunie clan did build the magic circuit?

I build several computer. But you know, if you ask me to build a processor, I will have to say I can't. I know how they work and how they are build but I can't make them even I have access to the technology to. I think the Kunie clan have the same problem.

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

Ain't it clear that the kunie is in charge of maintain them?

When you maintain a machine you use shortcut. They only work most of the time. Even if you know the is a chance they don't work you use them because they a lot of time. This problem is not new, in the medieval time a lot of technique was forgotten because of this. Generation after generation the shortcut became the norm and when the real problem occurs, no one is able to use it anymore.

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

Then ain't it clear that those magic are the alv's legacy?

Then ain't it clear that the kunie have at least some damn knowledge about them?

Yes you are right. But you know there is a difference between knowledge of the "how it work" and the "how it is made". Take the computer processor you can know how it works and how it is made. Do you think you can build one?

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Kamui04

And to expand on that, even if you're a good mechanic and can keep an old car/helicopter running, that doesn't by default make you capable of completely building a helicopter or a Ferrari from scratch which is a further stretch! Yes someone could reverse engineer them but that would take time and most likely not reach the same level as the original and the more complex the harder it is.

Also saying the Landers 'built' something ergo they must have intricate knowledge of it is making big assumptions from a few lines from the LN. Just because a contractors team can build you a house doesn't mean they have knowledge to make the materials or tools they use or how they were processes or even where they came from. Did the landers made the barriers from scratch or did they slap it together from an Alv's IKEA kit?

exactly, all true. Plus, like I said, we'd get something closer to the Adeptus Mechanicus in Warhammer 40,000, where maintenance is done via ritual and to an extent people have lost a fair bit of technical knowledge.

I can build a computer. don't ask me how it works, beyond "I plug the power in and it runs."

[Naole]

Originally Posted by Voceane

I build several computer. But you know, if you ask me to build a processor, I will have to say I can't. I know how they work and how they are build but I can't make them even I have access to the technology to. I think the Kunie clan have the same problem.

Recognize that in all likelihood you Assembled components into a PC or the like; so you didn't actually a build a processor. Your also drawing conclusions about the technical capabilities Kunie clan.

All the Arguments insinuating that somehow the landers forgot how to build advanced magical systems ignore the fact that it is revealed that Landers have Magic Universities in Vol 3. what is Ri-gun again? right a magical scholar!

Also for that particular line of thought to be correct all Landers would have to be stupid.

Originally Posted by Kamui04

And to expand on that, even if you're a good mechanic and can keep an old car/helicopter running, that doesn't by default make you capable of completely building a helicopter or a Ferrari from scratch which is a further stretch! Yes someone could reverse engineer them but that would take time and most likely not reach the same level as the original and the more complex the harder it is.

Also saying the Landers 'built' something ergo they must have intricate knowledge of it is making big assumptions from a few lines from the LN. Just because a contractors team can build you a house doesn't mean they have knowledge to make the materials or tools they use or how they were processes or even where they came from. Did the landers made the barriers from scratch or did they slap it together from an Alv's IKEA kit?

Again with the erroneous inference that Lenders are stupid and they forgot something critical to their security. Major lander cities have these installations; it's not just player cities!

And the comparisons to mechanics are also inferences made by those supporting this Arguments insinuating that somehow the landers forgot how to build advanced magical systems ignoring the details given.

This sort of assumption requires far to much additional circumstances thus Violating Ockham's Razor

[Iamis]

The Alvs made the Powered Armor, from this its easy to guess that these cities were once populated with Alvs for a variety of reasons

The Landers do know how to make Advanced Magical systems, just not the guard system and powered armors

Choushi and other towns can be destroyed by Monsters, In Kanami's Side story the village Coppelia was at was destroyed by Monsters

If they could make it, Why would every Village NOT have a guard system? I bet the Landers would pay almost any price to get their hands on one for their village or town, I highly doubt there are only around 30 Cities in Eastal

I also highly doubt The Alvs would be willing to share such technology and knowledge since they got massacred, enslaved and other unpleasant things done to them because other races were jealous of their magic technology, In fact They probably Destroyed all knowledge on how to make such things just to spite the victors