Zeta Gundam discussion

[Dean_the_Young]

Just rewatched the official sub: episode 4, 11 minutes in. Kamille has boarded the Titan ship.

Jerid: That was your mom, huh? For what it's worth, I'm sorry. I had no idea she was in the capsule. Must be hard, since you're still a baby. Go ahead and hit me, like you did at the space port.


Kamille doesn't doesn't call him a dog, but says along the lines "I see, you were a soldier just following orders, no thinking or questioning allowed. I forgive you. I'm big enough to beat you, but powerless against the system. That's what I learned today."


Jerid certainly wasn't sobbing in sympathy, but he wasn't mocking. He called Kamille a baby because he thinks Kamille is young and soft, but offered Kamille the chance to take it out on him if he wanted, even though he had been fighting for his pride earlier. Kamille didn't take the offer though, and made an insult of being morally superior to Jerid. Emma stopped both of them.

[KaiDamien]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

What was sudden about it? It had a very solid build up, ever since she met Scirocco. It was clear before and after that she had no strong ties to the AEUG in the first place.

For the xth time i do know the reasons on why Reccoa join Scirocco blah blah blah. One min was against the Titans the next min she wasn't, and she turned up on another Titan's ship being a Titan wannabe. Perviously she sure wasnt shooting the Argama and its MS and against them.Perhaps you felt that it was alright, but i don't. And showing what happened on that ship would helped alot.(To me )

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Just rewatched the official sub: episode 4, 11 minutes in. Kamille has boarded the Titan ship.

Jerid: That was your mom, huh? For what it's worth, I'm sorry. I had no idea she was in the capsule. Must be hard, since you're still a baby. Go ahead and hit me, like you did at the space port.

The problem is you are basing it entirely off the horrible (and seemingly mistranslated) dubtitles. If you listen to the Japanese audio, he doesn't apologize. He was mocking Kamille crying out "kaa-san, kaa-san", and couple that with the baby thing, his smirk and the sarcasm its obvious he isn't trying to stir good feelings. Both Kamille and Emma's expressions throughout the whole thing should tell you exactly what he's trying to accomplish.

[Flame-X]

It's kind of funny that Jerid was all clueless about a person being inside the capsule. Right after he shot the thing, he was like, "Huh, what's this feeling I'm sensing?... Hmm?"

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by KaiDamien

For the xth time i do know the reasons on why Reccoa join Scirocco blah blah blah. One min was against the Titans the next min she wasn't, and she turned up on another Titan's ship being a Titan wannabe. Perviously she sure wasnt shooting the Argama and its MS and against them.Perhaps you felt that it was alright, but i don't. And showing what happened on that ship would helped alot.(To me )

If foreshadowing, multiple episodes of development, losing connections to the AEUG, and a played out chain of events demonstrating how she was transported from one faction that she was clearly distancing from to another with a man who she was drawn to doesn't qualify as build up, what does? Kamille's one-episode abandoning of the Federation and joining the AEUG? Emma's surprise defection?

There are far, far more and greater changes in various skips in Zeta than the blatant Reccoa foreshadowing and capture.

Originally Posted by brightman

The problem is you are basing it entirely off the horrible (and seemingly mistranslated) dubtitles. If you listen to the Japanese audio, he doesn't apologize. He was mocking Kamille crying out "kaa-san, kaa-san", and couple that with the baby thing, his smirk and the sarcasm its obvious he isn't trying to stir good feelings. Both Kamille and Emma's expressions throughout the whole thing should tell you exactly what he's trying to accomplish.

I'm not sure how Bandai can 'mistranslate' their own work. Especially when the dub has pretty much the exact same lines, except with a far more nasally voice (which they insisted on giving to every Titan, in the 80's habbit of every-evil-must-be-obnoxiously-nasally theme of the time). But Bandai, you know, sort of owns the script.


Jerid's a dick in how he does it, throwing in the jab about Kamille's maturity at the end, but he does apologize about killing Kamille's mother. It's very much in his type of character at the time to be a douche even, or especially, when he's apologizing to someone he doesn't like.

(From a psychological viewpoint, inciting Kamille to hit him like he asked is both seeking to absolve his guilt and to prove his control over the situation; absolving himself of his guilt on his own terms in a light that puts him over Kamille. In refusing to (at Emma's restraint), Kamille both forces the burden back on Jerid and punctures Jerid's own ego. Emma's expression and action after Kamille's retort should tell you exactly what Kamille was trying to accomplish as well.)



Jerid's a dick in apologizing, no doubt about it, but no one made him do so, and he didn't arrive just to mock Kamille for shits and giggles.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Flame-X

It's kind of funny that Jerid was all clueless about a person being inside the capsule. Right after he shot the thing, he was like, "Huh, what's this feeling I'm sensing?... Hmm?"

Vague 'is he a newtype?' moment XX: Jerid's got a list of them. One of the things I liked about him is that even without being a full-fledged Newtype god, he still matched Kamille as often as not without any reliance on being a newtype (or not) to justfiy his skills.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

I'm not sure how Bandai can 'mistranslate' their own work. Especially when the dub has pretty much the exact same lines, except with a far more nasally voice (which they insisted on giving to every Titan, in the 80's habbit of every-evil-must-be-obnoxiously-nasally theme of the time). But Bandai, you know, sort of owns the script.

Of course the dub has the same line... The most frequently viewed version of Zeta Gundam in English (ie the DVD boxset) is dubtitled, if you weren't aware.

Maybe you missed this when I posted this last time, but Jerid does not apologize in the Japanese track. Again, Jerid does not apologize in the Japanese track. Maybe he does in the English dub, I am not going to bother to check, but either that is a mistranslation or Bandai took creative freedom in translating the thing (which happens to feature the wrong characterization of Jerid).

Maybe someone can check the REAL subtitles (from the volumes set) to obtain the correct translation.

[Hellbore]

Originally Posted by brightman

Of course the dub has the same line... The most frequently viewed version of Zeta Gundam in English (ie the DVD boxset) is dubtitled, if you weren't aware.

Maybe you missed this when I posted this last time, but Jerid does not apologize in the Japanese track. Again, Jerid does not apologize in the Japanese track. Maybe he does in the English dub, I am not going to bother to check, but either that is a mistranslation or Bandai took creative freedom in translating the thing (which happens to feature the wrong characterization of Jerid).

Maybe someone can check the REAL subtitles (from the volumes set) to obtain the correct translation.

Just checked, Jerid doesn't mock Kamille at all, and does apologise in the Japanese.

[KaiDamien]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If foreshadowing, multiple episodes of development, losing connections to the AEUG, and a played out chain of events demonstrating how she was transported from one faction that she was clearly distancing from to another with a man who she was drawn to doesn't qualify as build up, what does? Kamille's one-episode abandoning of the Federation and joining the AEUG? Emma's surprise defection?

There are far, far more and greater changes in various skips in Zeta than the blatant Reccoa foreshadowing and capture.

I didn't say there wasn't, its just that i'm unsatisfied with how it turned out.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Hellbore

Just checked, Jerid doesn't mock Kamille at all, and does apologise in the Japanese.

No he doesn't. He says he didn't know his mother was on the capsule, but he doesn't apologize.

And calling someone a baby is the same thing as mocking him. So I'm not sure what you "checked".

[Hellbore]

Originally Posted by brightman

No he doesn't. He says he didn't know his mother was on the capsule, but he doesn't apologize.

And calling someone a baby is the same thing as mocking him. So I'm not sure what you "checked".

I watched the episode, that's what I checked. It is a conversational implicature. While he doesn't use the word 'sorry', it's still an apology, just indirect. Which is mostly a reflection of Jerid's character at this point in the series.

I retract my statement about the mocking though, it's more of an insult to be completely fair

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by brightman

Of course the dub has the same line... The most frequently viewed version of Zeta Gundam in English (ie the DVD boxset) is dubtitled, if you weren't aware.

Maybe you missed this when I posted this last time, but Jerid does not apologize in the Japanese track. Again, Jerid does not apologize in the Japanese track. Maybe he does in the English dub, I am not going to bother to check, but either that is a mistranslation or Bandai took creative freedom in translating the thing (which happens to feature the wrong characterization of Jerid).

Not going to check? How... convenient for you. And ugh. No, that's not how it works.

The dub is equally cannon. It is not 'mischaracterization' because it is the characterization. The cannon-strength dub outright has Jerid apologizing (and then being a dick in doing so). And the Bandai-approved subtitles for their work verify that. By giving their approval, Bandai is saying "why yes, that is what they are saying in Japanese." And in all matters of authority over Gundam, Bandai > you.

Maybe someone can check the REAL subtitles (from the volumes set) to obtain the correct translation.

Actually, that's your responsibility. The burden of proof does not fall on the defense, it falls on the one make the claim. I already found the scene in question twice: once as the plain dub, which is cannon, and Bandai-approved, Bandai-rereleased subs, which Bandai says are the correct translation. So we have two Bandai-supported correct translations that say, yes, Jerid did apologize.

So why not do it yourself?

Oh, wait, I already did find official-approved subs.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Actually, that's your responsibility. The burden of proof does not fall on the defense, it falls on the one make the claim. I already found the scene in question twice: once as the plain dub, which is cannon, and Bandai-approved, Bandai-rereleased subs, which Bandai says are the correct translation. So we have two Bandai-supported correct translations that say, yes, Jerid did apologize.

So why not do it yourself?

Oh, wait, I already did find official-approved subs.

Sure thing. Here's the Bandai rereleased subs:
Jerid: "Your mom! Your dear mommy! I had no idea your mother is in the capsule. *smirk* It must be hard, since you're still a baby. Go ahead and hit me, as you did at the spaceport before."

So where's the apology again?

And Bandai Entertainment dubtitles (which were so universally panned that Bandai Ent later apologized for it) are canon? What's next, Chantal Strand is going to influence the course of Gundam 00's romance scenes?

Originally Posted by Hellbore

I watched the episode, that's what I checked. It is a conversational implicature. While he doesn't use the word 'sorry', it's still an apology, just indirect. Which is mostly a reflection of Jerid's character at this point in the series.

I retract my statement about the mocking though, it's more of an insult to be completely fair

The reason why IMO he's mocking him is not just the "baby" part. He's basically calling Kamille a baby because he got punched for a rather childish reason before (saying he has a girl's name). So essentially he is suggesting that him calling Kamille a girl and him killing his mother deserves the same punishment. So no, definitely not an apology.

[Obi-Wan]

Yeah, gotta side with brightman here. Just because Bandai released DVDs with dubtitles doesn't make them entirely correct. The original Zeta dubtitled release was pretty bad. About the only thing I side with Bandai on is official character names, especially in the CE universe. Glad they fixed garbage like "Ssigh" "Fllay" "Mwu" and so forth.

[RX-78GP04G Gerbera]

Granted, Jerid did keep coming back with better MS while Kamille was stuck with the Gundam Mark II and Zeta Gundam, yet constantly foiled by circumstance and/or Newtype hax, lol.

Hizack = Not much since he didn't really lose while piloting it since he mostly just moved on to the Galbaldy Beta and Marasai.

Galbaldy Beta = Lost, IIRC.

Marasai = Damage build-up and forced to abandon it in Jaburo. I suppose he technically lost as the Marasai was destroyed from its damage while the Gundam Mark II was still going.

Gabthley = Zeta Gundam interference from its arrival the first time + lost 2nd time

Byalant = Can't remember exactly, but I don't recall him losing with this either. Just seemed to move on from it to the Baund Doc.

Baund Doc = Lost. Plain and simple, lol.


No matter how good a pilot you are and/or the MS/MA you pilot, you will eventually succumb to Newtype-hax powers somehow XP lol.

[Rawinder]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Byalant = Can't remember exactly, but I don't recall him losing with this either. Just seemed to move on from it to the Baund Doc.

Kamille chopped off one of its arms and Jerid retreated.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by RX-78GP04G Gerbera

Granted, Jerid did keep coming back with better MS while Kamille was stuck with the Gundam Mark II and Zeta Gundam, yet constantly foiled by circumstance and/or Newtype hax, lol.

Hizack = Not much since he didn't really lose while piloting it since he mostly just moved on to the Galbaldy Beta and Marasai.

Galbaldy Beta = Lost, IIRC.

Marasai = Damage build-up and forced to abandon it in Jaburo. I suppose he technically lost as the Marasai was destroyed from its damage while the Gundam Mark II was still going.

Gabthley = Zeta Gundam interference from its arrival the first time + lost 2nd time

Byalant = Can't remember exactly, but I don't recall him losing with this either. Just seemed to move on from it to the Baund Doc.

Baund Doc = Lost. Plain and simple, lol.


No matter how good a pilot you are and/or the MS/MA you pilot, you will eventually succumb to Newtype-hax powers somehow XP lol.

Of course, if you look at the number of times when Kamille was saved because of a last-second third party intervention...

Hizak: No win either way, but fight broken up by Emma and Char

Galbady Beta: Saved by Char as Jerid dealing final blow (Operation Apollo)

Marasai: In the team-up with Kakricon on the moon, Kamille got saved by Wong

Gabthley: Didn't get killed because Mouar (Mouar!) got in Jerid's line of fire to shake off Char during Operation Apollo

Byalant: Saved from a finishing blow twice: once by Four, then at Dakar by idealistic Titan dude



So in each of the suits but the Hizak and Bound Doc, while Jerid ruined in the end, there was a point where Kamille only survived cause of deus ex machina reinforcement.

Not bad against one of the most powerful newtypes of UC.

[Dean_the_Young]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by brightman

Sure thing. Here's the Bandai rereleased subs:
Jerid: "Your mom! Your dear mommy! I had no idea your mother is in the capsule. *smirk* It must be hard, since you're still a baby. Go ahead and hit me, as you did at the spaceport before."

So where's the apology again?

Same place it was before: the English dub as well. Not dubtitles (which were the lesser support), but the dub itself.

While I commend you for bothering to search out support for a point, it does bring an interesting question of why you assume those subs are holy and accurate and absolute both when (a) the producer has been known to issue incomplete/unclear translations before, and (b) when it counters the English dub, which can be counted as cannon.

And Bandai Entertainment dubtitles (which were so universally panned that Bandai Ent later apologized for it) are canon? What's next, Chantal Strand is going to influence the course of Gundam 00's romance scenes?

Now, just a hankering, but I have this crazy idea that an English dub of a show can be considered cannon.

Crazy, I know.

The reason why IMO he's mocking him is not just the "baby" part. He's basically calling Kamille a baby because he got punched for a rather childish reason before (saying he has a girl's name). So essentially he is suggesting that him calling Kamille a girl and him killing his mother deserves the same punishment. So no, definitely not an apology.

And my reading is that he's calling Kamille a baby because he looks down on him as young, soft, and civilian (a condescension he shows later as well), but he also admits his error. (He certainly isn't proud of it, when we see his reaction of unease when he does the deed (but doesn't know he killed someone)). He's mixing apology with condecension, which is an all-too-common trait in immature thugs like he was at the time; it fills the feeling of necessary apology, but protects the pride as well by lashing out at the same time.

I certainly don't read his expression as a -smirk-, not in the sense you are at least. I suspect that relates to other interpretations as well, based highly along which format you choose to take to heart most; the dub, or whichever subtitle you consider adequent for the scene in question.

[brightman]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

While I commend you for bothering to search out support for a point, it does bring an interesting question of why you assume those subs are holy and accurate and absolute both when (a) the producer has been known to issue incomplete/unclear translations before, and (b) when it counters the English dub, which can be counted as cannon.

Uh... Because I understand what he said in Japanese, and those subs are fairly accurate? I thought I already made that clear. I just grabbed the subs to illustrate the point that the dub is inaccurate.

And my reading is that he's calling Kamille a baby because he looks down on him as young, soft, and civilian (a condescension he shows later as well), but he also admits his error. (He certainly isn't proud of it, when we see his reaction of unease when he does the deed (but doesn't know he killed someone)). He's mixing apology with condecension, which is an all-too-common trait in immature thugs like he was at the time; it fills the feeling of necessary apology, but protects the pride as well by lashing out at the same time.

Again, I don't see where you're getting this apology from. But whatever, my point has been made.

And yes, I agree that Jerid did display unease about it initially. But that was not the front he was displaying to Kamille, and what was displayed was definitely not remorse. Not to mention the whole thing was quickly forgotten by him after this scene.

[Hellbore]

Originally Posted by brightman

Uh... Because I understand what he said in Japanese, and those subs are fairly accurate? I thought I already made that clear. I just grabbed the subs to illustrate the point that the dub is inaccurate.



Again, I don't see where you're getting this apology from. But whatever, my point has been made.

Like I said before he never apologises directly, it's implied. Jerid just isn't the type to come out and say "I'm sorry", so he covers with some (not-so)subtle mocking/insult.